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YOUR BALANCE
First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)
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First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 10:34 AM

Hello all,

First time poster here.

I've been a frequent reader of Tigernet for a long time now and it has become my primary source for everything Clemson sports; especially football. I've always enjoyed checking out the Tigerboards to read posts and see the rest of Clemson nation's thoughts and discussions (whether funny or serious!). I love the sense of community on the boards. Besides our shared common interest in Clemson, it's always cool to see people reach out for prayer, help, or advice and then see the numerous and thoughtful responses. It makes me proud as a longtime Clemson fan and Clemson Alum.

Well, after reading posts for years I finally figured I'd get in on the action. So, for my first post ever, I figured I'd give the entirety of my thoughts on the QB battle (an easy task I know...). Even though I hope to be involved on board more often in the future, it's just not within my nature to be a frequent poster; so, I figured I'd get it all out there for my first post!

With that being said, here we go...

QB Battle:

It seems ever since Tevor Lawrence's commitment, and especially since the beat down Clemson suffered at the hands of Bama during last year's Sugar Bowl, the rush of Clemson's support and desire for Lawrence to start this year has swelled. Which, I completely understand.

I consider myself a pretty rational, logical, realistic, and pessimistic person - which, will become more evident throughout this post - I also don't consider myself a risk taker for the most part (I sound depressing, I know). So, when I heard Trevor Lawrence was considered a "once in a generation talent" or "he could play in the NFL right away" I initially didn't believe it. But, after reading and researching more, his hype seemed to be warranted (his film and HS statistics are ridiculous; not to mention the way analysts, pundits, players, and coaches talk about him). So, I've come to accept the hype to a certain extent, and I truly think that if he started day-one, he could POTENTIALLY have an All-american type year. But, there's only one problem...we have another GOOD QB named Kelly Bryant...

I don't want to waste any space breaking down Kelly's season last year or how much I like/respect him. I think everyone watched every game last season and everyone likes/respects Kelly (although, the way some people talk about him, you wouldn't think that's the case...). So, I just wanted to present the best case for, and against, starting Kelly Bryant at QB.

The case for starting Kelly Bryant:

1. Experience in the offensive system and experience in real-game scenarios.

Kelly Bryant will be a senior this year and he has had experience in Jeff Scott's and Toney Eliot's system for a long time now. Not only that, he started 12 games last year against 6-7 rank teams and tough competition – especially tough defenses. So, that means he has immensely valuable in-game experience; which, truly does make a difference. As a freshman (I know he’s an early enrollee), TLaw clearly doesn’t have as much experience in the offensive system (I do understand he played in a similar system in HS and he enrolled early), nor in-game experience. While being a transcendent talent, we forget he is a freshman; and his inexperience with the system and in-game scenarios will naturally and eventually lead to mistakes (how many mistakes is up for debate…). I know he isn't like most freshman, but freshman mistakes can and should be expected.

2. Better offensive skill position players.

While I know this also applies to TLaw, I think an important point needs to be made in regards to Kelly; especially after last season. Besides having to be compared to Deshaun, Kelly didn’t have near as good skill position players as Deshaun. Now, I know people will contend this point by saying Deon Cain, Ray Ray, and our RB’s were just as talented (or potentially talented) as Mike Williams, Artavis Scott, Wayne Gallman, and Jordan Legget. But, let's be honest, this is just not the case.

RB: While Etienne, Feaster, and Choice were productive as a group, none of them were comparable to Wayne Gallman. We tend to forget how Gallman was great in so many facets of his game: running, blocking, pass-catching, etc. While being very talented, none of our RBs last year possessed all of those combined attributes individually (Etienne came the closest). And while Etienne was great with his limited snaps, the fact is, he was a freshman and was limited in what he could do at the time (especially blocking - i.e Sugar Bowl). It should be noted that I think Etienne has the talent to end up being the GOAT of Clemson RBs!

WR/TE: I believe this is the biggest position that affected Kelly last year. The fact is, Deshaun (as AMAZING as he is) had Mike Williams, Artavis Scott, and Jordan Legget to throw the ball to. Each of those players are/were All-american type players who could go up and catch anything you threw their way (this was none more evident than on the last drive of the 2016 Natty); and now they are each in the NFL. Comparing those players to Deon Cain, Ray Ray, and whoever was in at TE last year, it just isn’t even close (and I LOVE Deon and Ray Ray); and, whether you’d admit it or not, that made a HUGE difference last season. (A very underrated factor last season was the TE position. Legget opened up the middle of the field and was a legitimate receiving threat. Without a TE receiving threat, an offense – especially ours – can really be hindered). This year, the WR position should be upgraded and improved with Higgins maturing, Renfrow back, and the talented Amari Rodgers stepping in (not to mention all our SUPER talented back-ups). While I'm expecting improvement, I’m still holding my breath on the TE positon…

With all that being said, I think the inconsistency and lacking of our skill positions last year really hurt Kelly Bryant (yes, I know some of our offensive struggles were on him – but we’ll get to that). With expected improvement at RB, WR, and TE, Kelly should be expected to perform much better. (And yes, I know this point also applies to TLaw as well…)

3. Running threat.

I won’t spend too much time here because I think this goes without saying: Kelly Bryant is the better running option of the QBs. Now, some may argue this is offset with his throwing ability (which, I’ll get to), but he can make up for his lack of passing with tough, aggressive running. Within our offensive system, that’s a big deal because a QB running threat really opens up our offense. Yes, TLaw can run the ball too, but I think it’s fair to say he’s not the duel-threat QB that Kelly is; and, being a freshman who needs to pack on more weight, he’s also at more of a risk of injury if he does run.

4. An EXPECTED improvement in passing.

This last point may be the most contested. I think given what we saw from last season, what we saw in the Spring Game, and what we’ve seen/heard from practice/camp up until this point, Kelly Bryant’s passing ability is seemingly still lacking or at least very inconsistent.

Looking at last years stats:
The Good-to-Avg: 65.8% CMP%, 2,802 YDS, and 24 total TDs
The Below Avg-to-Bad: 7.04 YPA, 13 passing TDs, 65.9 RAW QBR, and 25.6 CMP% of passes > 20 yards (it should be noted he was hurt by drops here as well – i.e. point #2).

There are many more stats that could be pointed out, but I just wanted to point out a few. The fact of the matter is, our offense – especially in the passing game – wasn’t as explosive last season. Some of that was on Kelly, some of that was on our skill position players, and some of that was on conservative play-calling. But, it is what it is. (Although, we’ve become spoiled as a fan base and also spoiled from Deshaun, we had our expectations lowered last season after all that we lost, but after KELLY BRYANT instilled confidence again, we then raised the bar for his performance).

Now, I admit this is only an expectation, but with another offseason of work and building a rapport with his receivers, I think it’s REASONABLE to expect that Kelly Bryant will improve in his passing (people tend to overlook last year was his first year starting games). While some practice reports, and especially the Spring Game, seem to say otherwise, I don’t want to come to an conclusion based on a limited amount of data. Especially when there are reports that he is/has improved(ing) and the fact that in the Spring Game the offense is hampered because the QB can’t truly run.

The Case Against Kelly:

1. Lack of passing consistency and explosiveness = a struggling offense.

While I think better/improved skill position players and a reasonable expectation of improved passing will help, the fact is, it may not be enough. As much as I feel biased towards Kelly (after being our QB, being a great person/leader, and getting us to the playoffs last year), I will admit that based off what we have seen – and his straight-up natural passing ability – it is also reasonable to admit that Kelly just doesn’t have what it takes to take our offense to its fullest potential. His arm is a little weak (which, made our very crucial screen game struggle), he was very inconsistent passing the ball down field (which, a lack of big plays hindered the offense), and it was clear the coaches knew Kelly’s limitations by way of their conservative play calling last season.

2. A great defense and easy schedule makes things “hazy.”

Given our unbelievable defense (hopefully our secondary stays healthy!) and our relatively easy schedule (although, the ACC does have a lot of depth – just no other “great” teams), it would be easy for Kelly, or any QB for that matter, to play for us and be “successful” in the regular season. Obviously, that means “successful” in the sense of just not losing the game for us and being more of a game manager. But, who wants a game manager? Given the talent we have on offense, there’s no excuse for us to not field a 25 offense. While Kelly Bryant certainly won us (or at least greatly contributed to winning) games last year (Auburn, @Louisville, @Va-Tech, @South Carolina, and Miami), he also contributed to us struggling with teams where if the QB position played well it would have been a blow out or a win (BC, Wake Forest, @Syracuse (he was injured I know), @NC State, Florida State, and Alabama) (Although, side note, I don't attribute the Alabama loss exclusively to Kelly Bryant. That was an ALL-AROUND team loss). Given that this season sets us up to seemingly steamroll through our schedule (hopefully we avoid the annual “inexplicable Clemson loss to a middling team”), this season could compare to last season in that we really won’t know how good Kelly is until we get to the playoff; and, by that point, if Kelly’s performance during the regular season was just a façade, then it’ll be too late…

3. Experience, knowledge, and good-intentions doesn’t always trump pure talent.

Like point #4 in the previous section, this is more speculative; so I won’t spend to much time on this point either. But, given TLaw’s transcendent talent and the fact that he enrolled early, it’s not unreasonable to argue that his pure talent right now can already trump Kelly Bryant’s experience and knowledge. The fact that TLaw has already made the QB1 position a full-fledged competition, makes this argument valid. If Kelly really is supposed to be the starter, he would have pulled away in the competition. And, I don’t even think Kelly Bryant has performed that poorly in practice or camp, I just the TLaw is that good! As we know, Dabo tends to favor seniority, or at least defaults to seniority in an even competition, so that does lend to Kelly. Thus, ultimately, the only way to determine the truth of this point is to see them in live-game action. Which, is where I’ll conclude my discussion…

Where I land on the QB situation…

For me, given all that I have said or not said, I TRULY DO BELIEVE WE CAN WIN A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP WITH EITHER KELLY OR TLAW. What Kelly lacks in pure talent and passing ability, he makes up for in toughness, grit, running ability, experience, knowledge, and what should be an all-around improved team. What TLaw lacks in experience, knowledge, and the inevitable freshman mistakes, he makes up for in undeniable and transcendent arm-talent, passing ability, maturity, football IQ, the “IT” factor, and a team that can mask any freshman mistakes. So, inevitably, I think we’ll see some form of a two-QB system early on in the season; similar to Deshaun and Cole in 2014. Obviously, Furman won’t count, but playing @Texas A&M I think will be the ultimate determining game of the QB position (similar to @FSU in 2014); and where we begin to see one of the two begin to separate himself from the other. It may even take a game or two after A&M, but we’ll truly begin to see the separation given all the factors involved. Thus, as frustrating as it may be for the vastness of Clemson fans who want to see Trevor play immediately, I choose to play a wait-see-approach and see who is ultimately the best through in-game competition. Because, I’ll be happy and confident either way.

Season Outlook:

Before I conclude this post, I wanted to give a quick outlook on the season. Like I mentioned earlier, I’m a generally logical, rational, and pessimistic person. So, during each pre-season as a Clemson fan I have generally had a more negative outlook than the general fan populace (I’m 25 years old and I have been a fan since the 2003 season. The first game I remember was the 63-17 beatdown of Usuck!). If I’m being honest, I haven’t truly OUTRIGHT or CONFIDENTLY predicted ACC Championships, playoff appearances, and especially National Championships since all of those things have become more realistic for the Tigers. I have definitely thought we have had POTENTIAL or COULD do so. Well, with that being said, this is the first year since becoming a Clemson fan that I’m OUTRIGHT and CONFIDENTLY predicting the Tigers to be ACC Champs and make the playoffs; and will do so rather easily. Now, what happens once we reach the playoffs, I’m not AS confident…although, I will say this is also the first year that I wouldn’t be uncomfortable saying publicly that I think the Tigers can/should/will win the Natty. Boys, buckle up because this season is going to be a fun one!

Love the community

Love the Tigers

God bless

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you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 10:36 AM

TLDR=too long didn’t read

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Re: you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 10:44 AM

Great first post. Look forward to reading many more

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Re: you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 10:55 AM [ in reply to you may know this but just in case you need it later: ]

Yeah, I know. I'm sure I'll get a lot of those...

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Re: you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 10:55 AM [ in reply to you may know this but just in case you need it later: ]

Yeah, I know. I'm sure I'll get a lot of those...

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Re: you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 12:10 PM [ in reply to you may know this but just in case you need it later: ]

Same, too long, its like people live hearing themselves talk.

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Re: you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 5:36 PM

Or type...

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Re: you may know this but just in case you need it later:


Aug 10, 2018, 12:52 PM [ in reply to you may know this but just in case you need it later: ]



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Is this yet-another rule imposed.....


Aug 10, 2018, 4:15 PM [ in reply to you may know this but just in case you need it later: ]

by the self-appointed Tigernet Police?

If it's too long for you, then don't read it. Quit telling other people what they shouldn't be doing.

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Another moran who can’t read.


Aug 10, 2018, 10:12 PM

I didn’t say tldr. I told him what it meant in case someone else wrote it. Read that again and see if you can comprehend


Message was edited by: lovingit®


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I think we'll be skrong. How's that?***


Aug 10, 2018, 6:55 PM [ in reply to you may know this but just in case you need it later: ]



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Did you start typing this yesterday when you joined?


Aug 10, 2018, 10:39 AM

.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-classof1994.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: Did you start typing this yesterday when you joined?


Aug 10, 2018, 10:54 AM

Like I said, I just figured I'd put it all out there at once. Just how I tend to operate. Also, I'm sick at home today so I had time to type this all up!

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)***


Aug 10, 2018, 10:40 AM





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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


You really exceeded my expectations this time Francis***


Aug 10, 2018, 10:43 AM

null


Message was edited by: lovingit®


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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)***


Aug 10, 2018, 11:19 AM [ in reply to Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)*** ]

like your new "DO" Francis!

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonormyfavorange.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Holy shyatt, there's text everywhere***


Aug 10, 2018, 10:40 AM



2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


So TLDR = HSTE___ left out the T for there.***


Aug 10, 2018, 3:59 PM



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R u challenging quozell***


Aug 10, 2018, 10:46 AM



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Geville Tiger on Clemson football , "Dabo's only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Welcome to tigernet


Aug 10, 2018, 10:58 AM



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Why are you here? I thought yesterday you declared


Aug 10, 2018, 11:02 AM

that you were a lunger?

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Why are you here? I thought yesterday you declared


Aug 10, 2018, 11:06 AM



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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 10:59 AM

Good post but why do you think this site is looking for logical, rational, realistic thought????

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That is the only question that matters***


Aug 10, 2018, 11:00 AM



2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Geville Tiger on Clemson football , "Dabo's only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 12:46 PM [ in reply to Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long) ]

This site frankly needs some logical insight! Heck many just try to be “cute” say to much negative or act superior like a banned baseball nut case from May/June. Yes, the post was long, honestly how many of us have the same thoughts, but don’t post them?

Give the newbie a break! Personally I come onsite to learn and to candidly discuss, not argue.

We have lost the art of “agreeing to disagree” and reaching a consensus through reasonable dialogue and if we don’t recognize this loss the next generation won’t know how to find common ground.

Go Tigers!

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One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 11:00 AM

throwing at are currently playing for NFL teams.

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Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 11:30 AM

While they are in the NFL currently, who knows if they will make it long term or turn out to be successful. Now, early returns for both Ray Ray and Deon have been pretty good; so, it's shaping up well for them. Regardless, me saying they're "not as good" as Mike Williams, Artavis Scott, and Jordan Legget doesn't mean they're BAD.

Deon and Ray Ray are/were good and talented, but just not near as good as Mike, Tay, and Legget; and that absolutely makes a difference. Deon was inconsistent, didn't win as many one-on-one battles, he didn't have the same pass-catching ability or catch radius as Mike, and he had a lot of drops. Ray Ray was uber talented and showed flashes, but had a lot of mental lapses and wasn't as physical nor did he have the same blocking ability as Tay. And, I won't even get into the TE situation...Also, one could argue that Deon and Ray Ray didn't live up to their 5* billing or that they mentally checked out at certain points (given the drops, mental lapses, or their early NFL declarations). Not saying that's the case, just something to consider.

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Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 11:43 AM

Devils advocate here. I would say ray ray is better than Scott. Now I love Scott and think he is a great player. I think deon Cain is severely underrated. He dropped some balls last year but he looked like a stud with deshaun Watson throwing him the ball. As far as tight ends go I really don’t know what we have with them. Hard to tell when they aren’t targeted. I would say no Jordan legget it’s just hard to see how big of a drop it is. I think there is a talent drop at receiver last year but I don’t think it’s a major one. Regardless of who plays qb this year though go tigers!

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Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 11:43 AM [ in reply to Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was ]

Devils advocate here. I would say ray ray is better than Scott. Now I love Scott and think he is a great player. I think deon Cain is severely underrated. He dropped some balls last year but he looked like a stud with deshaun Watson throwing him the ball. As far as tight ends go I really don’t know what we have with them. Hard to tell when they aren’t targeted. I would say no Jordan legget it’s just hard to see how big of a drop it is. I think there is a talent drop at receiver last year but I don’t think it’s a major one. Regardless of who plays qb this year though go tigers!

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Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 12:13 PM

Appreciate the thoughtful and respectful response!

I definitely agree with you that Ray Ray was super talented and, at certain points, you could say was a better overall slot receiver than Tay. But, in my opinion, Tay had the greater overall impact. On top of Tay being a great receiver, he was also more physical, a better blocker, and much better at producing YAC (which, is a very underrated quality in our quick passing/screen heavy offensive system). Although, I do agree that Ray Ray was quicker and the better pass-catcher between the two.

Another thing to consider was Ray Ray's maturity and overall commitment as well. Dabo had said through multiple off-seasons that Ray Ray lacked maturity and he was waiting on him to "wake up" so-to-speak. I think he did to a certain extent, but I always thought Ray Ray was never entirely focused on the team and had his sights set for the next big thing. Which, is evidenced by him leaving for the NFL early when he could have returned for his senior year and posted better numbers and/or improved his game.

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Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 1:29 PM [ in reply to Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was ]

The problem that IMO comes into play here with that....is 2015.

2015, DW4 led us to the National Championship without Mike Williams the entire season, including the playoffs and National Championship. In fact, he also played the National Championship that year without Cain too, but managed to score 40 points and break National Championship records in that game....with Renfrow (who KB also had), Leggett (to me, the main missing piece), and Peake (which never really materialized into a great WR after his injuries. IMO both RRM and DC were overall better than Peake, and where they were drafted vs Peake backs that up). Artavis Scott had a TD in the game, but only had 33 yards total, so wasn't a major factor full game. Also had Gallman, but as far as the running and receiving game, Feaster and Etienne both held their own with KB....mainly the blocking that was their issue vs Gallman.

Deshaun also did much more with Deon than KB did with him in the deep passing game. Cain had his highest yards (by only 10) last year, but 2015 & 2016, he averaged more yards per play under DW4 than he did with KB (17.1 and 19.1 vs 12.7 last year).

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Re: One problem, bub ... those "not as good" WR's KB was


Aug 10, 2018, 9:19 PM

Last year KB lead us to the playoffs incase you forgot. Yes that is one game less but doubt OUs D in 15 was as good as Bama's last year. Now the 15 O put up some impressive stats without Williams for sure. No doubt DW is a better qb than KB but we play a different game with KB and it works. Now TL may have us back to tons of passing yards and TDs but we don't know for sure. Either way I believe we can win with either QB but it will be a different O for sure with KB or TL playing.

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Re: One problem, bub ... those


Aug 10, 2018, 10:31 PM

Yeah, I've heard several regurgitate that many times... Just let me know when he played an undefeated FSU like Boyd and Watson both did (while having a 151 yd, 0 passing TD performance against that 3-6 record team), then he'll get the medal for winning the Atlantic without a bit of luck.

Why does that matter, you may ask? Because he will be facing a totally different FSU this year... Regardless whether it's from Taggart's changes, or the fact that Francois will likely be on the field this time... And Akers will likely be better this year. Do you honestly see his performance from last year holding up if he has no improvement, if Taggart gets them back to being an undefeated or 1 loss team, gets the offense back in line with that top level recruiting they never stopped doing, and a defense that held Bryant to nearly only 150 yards passing? That's why I don't think that his final result last year indicates that he'll be able to repeat it. And usually, lose to a 1 loss or less FSU, we don't end up in the ACC-CG by year end. Feel free to check the past to see who went on the years we lost to them.

But my point above is that is isn't just the WR's... We have a view of a DW4 season, without Williams, with Cain, and Renfrow. And Cain averaged more per play that year than he did last year. I also don't view last year's Bama D much if any better than the Bama D Watson threw for 400+. Yards on that everyone labeled that year as possibly one of the best Bama D's ever....all without Williams and Cain. He also did what he did to OU without both of them, too. Not sure how it all of a sudden gets turned into the difference being the WR's. The difference is the QB.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 11:01 AM

Slagathor,

This is probably one of the best posts i have read on here. Thanks for the break from the normal useless blabber with a realistic opinion on how the qb situation might play out.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 12:15 PM

Thanks ReneDeLab, I appreciate the kind words. Especially after some of the responses I've gotten lol

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 11:07 AM

So i just read the all CAPS words, and I summarize that you are potentially confident in Kelly Bryant.

That makes me potentially confident that you will be 50% popular on this site.

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Who is Toney Eliot?***


Aug 16, 2023, 9:47 AM



2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.


Re: Who is Toney Eliot?***


Aug 10, 2018, 11:24 AM

He was the fourth member of the band Tone, Tony, Toni before he was kicked out.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonormyfavorange.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Who is Toney Eliot?***


Aug 10, 2018, 11:53 AM

LMAO!

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Re: You have shown exceptional ineptitude in basically


Aug 10, 2018, 11:14 AM

concluding that you know nothing at all about the game of football.

For that, and the exceptional WALLOFCAPS whenever you attempt to make a wishy-washy point, you deserve banishment.

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Screw Calford.


Re: You have shown exceptional ineptitude in basically


Aug 10, 2018, 11:25 AM

could this be derps scok or is Stanley back!

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Re: You have shown exceptional ineptitude in basically


Aug 10, 2018, 3:39 PM

This has Stanley's fingerprints all over it. Hmmmmmmm

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Screw Calford.


Re: You have shown exceptional ineptitude in basically


Aug 10, 2018, 11:44 AM [ in reply to Re: You have shown exceptional ineptitude in basically ]

Whew, thanks for the warm welcome friend!

I appreciate the critique! I certainly don't claim to "know the game of football" more than anyone else; my opinion really doesn't mean anything. I just figured I'd share my opinion on a Clemson Football forum where one of the main points is to share your opinion. Sorry that I offended you so much! ESPECIALLY WITH THE ALL CAPS! May I ask what upset you so much with my post so that I may adequately respond? At least before I'm banished forever...

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That is almost as long as Gone with The Wind!!!


Aug 10, 2018, 11:17 AM

Welcome!

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Cliffs Notes or executive summary please.


Aug 10, 2018, 11:18 AM

nm

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Re: Cliffs Notes or executive summary please.


Aug 10, 2018, 11:26 AM

TL = good
KB = good
Everybody’s happy

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I wondered if you were ever going to land that plane.***


Aug 10, 2018, 11:35 AM



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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 11:41 AM

You should have gave us a better warning than that. More like “very, very, very, very extremely long” would have been better.

I forgot what the subject was when I got to the end and all I did was scroll to the bottom.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 11:49 AM

Nice post. Decent insights. Good that you respect the problem facing the coaches.

I'm expecting a 2 QB system to develop. KB out of the box. TL with some quality time. After awhile we will not know who is going to trot out for any given series. And neither will our opponents.

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Welcome Slagathor


Aug 10, 2018, 11:52 AM

You may not know it, but you just gave Mackey at least three blogs worth of free material.

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+1 for effort


Aug 10, 2018, 12:05 PM

But stopped reading after Deon Cain assertions - DC played well enough with DW4 to be named pre-season 2nd team All-American in several publications. Based on pre-season this year, DC also looks like promising rookie starter for Andrew Luck and Colts. Just can’t buy premise last year’s team lacked weapons. But glad to see you posting and best wishes on shorter posts moving forward ...

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Re: +1 for effort


Aug 10, 2018, 12:49 PM

SocMan2,

Yeah, I think I may have overemphasized the comparison a little or I was at least a little unclear about my thoughts with Deon. For clarification, I think Deon was an AMAZING receiver, super talented, fast, had swagger, and definitely proved with his production as a back-up during the 2016 season that he was a great one. I LOVED DEON! And I believe he'll show out at the Colts in their offensive system; they got a STEAL.

Now, the point I was trying to make still stands: As talented as Deon was, in my opinion, he was not as good a receiver as Mike Williams. Mike was just straight up bigger and more physical. Also, I believe Mike had better/more reliable hands, he had a bigger catch radius, he had deceptive speed, and he could also high-point a ball better than a lot of receivers I've seen. Mike had an ability to make a QB better than he was (not saying that Mike Williams is what made Deshaun good) because he could a catch a ball thrown any where in his vicinity (i.e the 2016 natty). As much as I love and think the world of Deon, he didn't have the same physicality, catch radius, or high pointing ability as Mike did (although he was quicker and straight-line faster). Which, also in my opinion, made a huge difference in the type of throws and play calls we could choose as an offense.

Not to mention, as I said with Ray Ray, the drops, miscues, and lack of effort were apparent at some points last season. Deon just didn't have that "if you throw it in his direction, he'll catch it" ability.

And also for clarity, last season's team didn't lack weapons. They certainly had great weapons. They were just weapons that weren't COMPARATIVELY as good, focused, or experienced as the 2016 team; and that made a difference in my opinion.

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Good job, you just obliterated everyone else's 1st poast.***


Aug 10, 2018, 12:12 PM



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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 12:21 PM

Doesn’t matter who KB had or didn’t have as weapons last year or the year before. Which QB is better for this team this year?

4 simple questions:

Which one will lead the more explosive offense with better downfield passing? To me, it’s TL

Which one will better utilize our best group of players on offense better ( our WRU guys, Higgins, Renfrow, Rodgers, Ross, Kendrick)?

TL

Which one will lead the better running game?

A little counterintuitive, but I say TL. KB is the better runner for sure, but TL’s ability to throw deep will force the safeties back giving Etienne, Feaster, and Lyn J more room to break one.

Which one will be harder and more of a nightmare for DC’s to prepare for? TL

To me it’s pretty obvious. The only real argument for KB is his experience and he should make less mistakes. But with our offensive and defensive talent, we can overcome a lot of miscues and the rewards will more than offset the extra risk.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 12:55 PM

Many good points here. I'd like to see KB start against Vermin and then see TL come in early enough to get many meaningful snaps and lead the team to several scoring drives. This way both will feel comfortable against the Shaggies in week two. And welcome to the board Slagathor.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 1:15 PM [ in reply to Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long) ]

magicman,

Appreciate the response and feedback!

You certainly make good points and I definitely agree with them to a certain extent for sure. I see where you're coming from!

A few responses/things to consider:

1. I think it's fair to say that Kelly's downfield passing will have improved with another offseason of work, improved skill positions, and better down-field passing targets (Higgins, Ross, Overton, etc.) (Now, hopefully the Spring Game is an exception to the norm...). Also, TLaw, as much as I believe in him and his talent, hasn't played in a live college game yet. Not that he wouldn't succeed, but who knows what could happen. While Bryant struggled in down field passing overall, he definitely showed flashes and ability to do so in live-game action; he isn't a QB that should be relegated into playing in GA Tech's system because of his inability to pass. Although, I'll admit TLaw just throws a beautiful ball and has such amazing touch; it's hard not to be enamored.

2. While I think we would be more of a run-heavy team with Kelly at the helm, and our WR's would be under-utilized to a certain extent, the run heavy system with Kelly will at least open up opportunities on the outside (now, it remains to be seen if Kelly can make the throws). Plus, as the point has been made, an improvement in those skill position players you mentioned can improve and/or make Kelly better too. Although, you're right TLaw may definitely better utilize our WRs to their highest capabilities.

3. I'd contend a little harder with the point that TL will open up the run game more. I think it's natural to assume that TLaw's passing ability will open up the run game (if he plays to his capability). Yet, on the opposite end, Kelly's running ability will keep LB's and Safteies honest with his ability to run/scramble. I know that didn't really come to fruition in some games last year, but with an overall improvement throughout the team, our offense can really be an offense that excels (similar to 2013 Auburn). Although, I get your point. If Kelly can't throw down field it doesn't matter how good the run game is...

4. While I agree that TLaw would be harder to prepare for because of his passing ability, Kelly would still be difficult to prepare for because of his running ability and ability to make plays when things breakdown. Also, being a freshman, especially against tougher defenses, defensive coordinators will try to take advantage of TLaw's lack of experience and youth. They will pessure him, throw formations and calls at him to confuse him, and force him into mistakes. Obviously, TLaw can just be like "nah" and ball out, but, once again, we just don't know if that'll happen. Kelly on the other hand, with his running ability, hopeful improved passing, a better O-line, better skill positions, and more team confidence, it will create just as much, if not more, of a nightmare for DC's. Who knows. I keep coming back in my mind to 2013 auburn and what they had with Nick Marshall. If we could recreate that, the vast majority of Clemson fans would be happy.

Ultimately, I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm just playing devils advocate. A lot to think about and consider. Like I said, I'd be happy either way!

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 3:18 PM

Appreciate the response. Agree the 3rd question could be argued either way though the talent of our RBs and the threat of long ball is lethal for a defense. Don’t doubt KB will be improved downfield passer this year. Just don’t think he’ll ever match TL in that regard nor will he optimize WRU as well. Just like I don’t think TK will ever be the runner KB is.

So even if I concede point 3, I think TL is clearly better on points 1,2, and 4. Not a fan’s call obviously and Dabo and staff are more informed to make the call, but that’s how I see it. Better player that best optimizes the entire offense and makes it explosive is who should play.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 5:39 PM

Hey, it's definitely hard to disagree with ya! I can easily see it from your perspective. I guess we'll see! Either way, it's going to be an exciting year in Tiger Town!

Thanks for the responses!

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 12:57 PM

1. Nice effort

2. Bullet points are more effective

3. Never use "Warning" in the subject line

4. Go Tigers

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 1:20 PM

Roundhouse1313,

Thanks for the advice. I tend to write longer posts, so I'll take what you said into account. Go Tigers

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 1:00 PM

I read most of the OP and agree with you mostly.
But the bottom line last year was that our D controlled the games .
The Clemson Defense put us in position to win the games.
The really only bad game they played was vs the Cuse and the O didn’t pick them up.
KB was a very good game manager and excellent goal line QB.
Other than that he didn’t strike fear, allowing opposing Ds to load the box and smother us.
We got to get back to spreading the field and making those fast strike big TDS.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 1:18 PM

Winitall18,

Very true my friend, very true. Definitely hard to argue with that. At least we have a "good" problem with our QB competition. But whoever starts, if we don't start opening up the field and creating big plays in the passing game I'll be disappointed; especially given our talent and schedule. There's no excuse not to have a top 25 offense this year.

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Well La-di-frickin-da!


Aug 10, 2018, 1:19 PM



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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 2:01 PM

Excellent first post with good insight. Frankly I am tired of the many trite and immature comments that some make on this board. Your type of post elicits good discussion and makes people think. I am sorry if it is too reading much for some but I guess that goes with the territory. For those complaining about the length you were warned. Keep up the good work. Look forward to hearing more.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 3:17 PM

Thanks for the encouragement friend!

Yeah, after following the boards for awhile now I know I would get a lot of negative or off-hand comments. It comes with the territory! But, I don't take it to heart. I just love a good football discussion.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 2:02 PM



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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 2:40 PM

KB’s completion percentage is incredibly misleading. His average completion traveled 5.6 yards through the air. His completion percentage for passes thrown beyond 10 yards was 46% and his completion percentage for passes thrown beyond 10 yards was 25%.

Against the 4 best defenses Clemson faced last year (Bama, FSU, VT, and Auburn), he threw one TD in 16 quarters of football. He didn’t pass for 200 yards against either team.

It’s not just that he looked terrible against Alabama. He looked terrible for most of the season. He had a few good games (UL, SC, and UM). But, neither of those games were contests. He also looked really bad in the spring game. His downfield accuracy was horrible in that game, just like it was thoughout the regular season. He’s never going to beat anyone with his arm.

Trevor Lawrence is a special talent and Clemson is more talented than every team on the schedule. Jake Fromm showed that a freshmen can take a team to the national title game. TL will get better with more playing time. I believe he should start against Furman because he will be much better in the playoffs then he would in the opener. And he has an electric arm that will make Clemson’s WRs shine. TL makes Clemson’s offense explosive again, KB doesn’t. TL can open up the run game and force teams not to stack the box. KB isn’t a threat to beat you with his arm, so teams will stack the box. ETN and Feaster will benefit from having TL at QB and so will all of the WRs.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 3:31 PM

JBMagni,

Thanks for the thoughtful, well-detailed, and honest response. I certainly appreciate it!

Honestly, there's not a whole lot to disagree or point out with your response. It's hard to argue with hard statistics and how poorly Kelly looked at points last season. His average completion traveled of 5.6 yards doesn't shock me. Neither does his completion % >10 yards. Plus, against the best defenses he face, he struggled. No argument there.

Now, once again the question becomes (like I mentioned in my original post) how much of his struggles last year were due to a lack of "down field" receiving options (especially at TE and a lack of a "jump ball" receiver), conservative play-calling (which, could have be a result of Kelly's lacking,but it also could have been the fact that we didn't need to be as aggressive with our strong defense), and the fact that it was his first year as a STARTING QB. I think it's reasonable to expect that he will improve his passing ability with an off-season of work and improvement at the skill positions (hopefully meaning receivers with better "jump ball" ability and TEs who can actually get involved in the receiving game).

And while I agree with your last part about TLaw, it still remains to be seen if that will be the case. It could be very likely, in fact, I would love for that to be the case! Or, he could experience freshman growing pains. That's why I think the competition will (and should, in my opinion) extend into the season and see how they each perform in in-game scenarios. If Kelly does improve his passing and takes more advantage of our skill positions, along with his running ability, we could look like the Auburn team in 2013. Very efficient, heavy-running team, with deep shots taken when teams stack the box.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 4:02 PM

I'm a Kelly Bryant fan. I think he is a great leader and certainly has the respect of the team. I want the best player to get the most snaps/starts this season and don't care who it is ..... Kelly, Chase, or Trevor.

But this is what I do know ....or think anyway. Bama did not think we could beat them throwing the ball. I'm not sure how much of that was due to Bryant, our receivers, or our O-line not being able to keep the pressure off of Kelly. Thus, that was and is the blueprint to beating us. Fortunately, not many teams have the D-line, D-backs, and linebackers that Bama does, so other teams can use that blueprint but it isn't going to work until we meet Bama or another team that is loaded with that kind of talent ..... not likely in the ACC except maybe FSU or Miami, and they are questionable this year. At some point we are going to have to be able to throw the ball downfield and the O-Line, RBs are going to have to protect, the receivers are going to have to get open, and the QB is going to have to get the ball to them. If we can do that, watch out!

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 5:32 PM

All very true!

Yeah, it's hard not to think about what happened in the Sugar Bowl last year and think it wouldn't happen again if Kelly is at the helm if we reach the playoffs once again. I think Kelly (assuming he's greatly improved) can get us to the playoffs and beyond, but I completely understand that line of thinking. That's why one of my points against him starting is that any deficiency he has will be masked by all the surrounding talent; and Clemson just being straight-up better than everyone on their schedule. And you're right throwing the ball down-field is imperative; especially against Bama. Look no further than what Deshaun did (and absolutely had to do) to beat/contend with Bama.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 3:56 PM

Great first post. Don't post much here, mainly because of some the responses you get from supposed fans. Uncalled for and disrespectful of you for doing what this board is about. Some people enjoy reading a well though and respectful post and hearing other peoples opinions. Keep it up. Real fans will appreciate it.

ALL IN!! GO TIGERS!!

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 5:35 PM

Thanks bud!

Yeah, seeing the negativity on the boards has kept me from posting all this time, but I figured "hey, why not?" I love discussing football, especially Clemson football, so if I have to go through some immaturity to end up having a good football discussion, it's worth it in my book!

Thanks again for the kind words!

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 4:23 PM

TL should start. Even ESPN says so.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 8:01 PM

Both play a lot against Furman. Then KB starts against AM. If the offense is slow, let TL run a series. If he does well let him play more. Same pattern in later games unless TL is doing super well.

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to be fair this is a great post, but just now had time to read


Aug 10, 2018, 8:57 PM

Don’t agree with everything but good analysis. My two cents is that we beat everyone on our schedule with Kelly Bryant but I still think we need heroic play from a qb to beat Alabama. I thought we were going to get away with one last year. If Alabama doesn’t make it I actually think we win the cfp. I think we have to have some deep throwing to beat them. Now I think if trevor plays he will have needed legit experience most of the year to be there and competitive but you have to wonder if there are a couple of rookie ints or fumbles bc he believes in his abilities so much that he doesn’t pick up a dB. So I think he could struggle a touch earlier. In the long game, if you aren’t getting it to the receivers frequently, you run the risk of losing “wru”. I think we are safe there bc even if Bryant does complete the year as first string we know we will be launching next year. I look at Tennessee a few years back. I’m lazy and don’t want to look up stats right now but they were trying to claim wru still and it took our fifth receiver until their number one had more reps. With numbers like that you don’t care if you’re number four or five bc you still have more receptions than most wrs at other school. In the end, kb has done a great job and led us to the playoffs. But I think we need an experienced trevor Lawrence to beat Alabama. That’s my two cents and I admit I could be wrong

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Re: logical, reasonably balanced--what's not to like?


Aug 10, 2018, 10:34 PM

But sometimes your effort at balance causes the perpetuity of the status quo, when their really ain't no balance in the current reality.

This is not criticism of your discussion.

Recently i compared Kelly to a lumber truck on two-lane Hwy 28 between Augusta and McCormick, twisting and turning, making pretty decent time because he knows the road, his load and his truck. I'm in the front-wheel drive sedan behind him, unable to pass because i don't have the horses under the hood, but i have to be careful not to get bored and recklessly run up under those logs from behind. Along comes a Lamborghini named Trevor and scoots right by both of us.

I think Kelly's leadership was overrated last year. I think their was a total vacuum in experience after Deshaun and Schu left, and Kelly had the only experience in the QB room (since Tucker had health issues.) By the way, his experience in 2016 was quite poor as a QB except for his long run vs Miami, but it gave him a leg up on everyone else because it provided him real college game experience. Better to learn from bad than from nothing.

In my subjective rating system, Kelly was a 15/100 last February. But he was far better than red shirt ZC at 5/100 and early enrollee HJ at 1/100. All had bad spring games, but Kelly knew the offense, brought energy, knew all the drills and all the moves, knew the teammates and their roles, understood some aspects of game management, and took it upon himself to get private non-Clemson coaching to improve his raw skills. He didn't just learn what to do; he learned what NOT to do to stay out of Dabo's doghouse. By start of season he had raised his game to 65/100, and later peaked vs Miami about 72. And he knew the most important lesson about staying in the lineup: don't turn the ball over.

Here's the problem. TL is already climbing into the 50's, and fall practice has just begun. Kelly has already maxed out his physical skills and can only raise his score by improving his in-game leadership skills. Fortunately he realizes that and is working at it, but even understanding protections and audibling out of bad plays, something totally lacking vs Bama, still won't get him past 80/100. But it's very likely that Trevor will reach 70 before the season and reach as high as 85-90 by season's end if he gets frequent playing time.

Now admittedly that is all subjective and a little random, but it's based on what Clemson QBs are expected to do. Crossing routes, screens, go's and wheel's, we run a lot of, and if our starting QB doesn't throw them well we won't get YAC and explosive plays. Kelly doesn't throw them well. He does throw the skinny post well.

I'm also hearing that in practicing the RPOs, Kelly is still keeping the ball as his default option, even when there is no defense. That troubles me. After all the talk about improving RB production, Kelly still says, "I made the correct reads in the games."

By the way, i think we will be surprised how effective a runner TL is. In spring game he ran more efficiently than any other QB, and i heard he outran a starting LB in practice. He is also within a few pounds of Kelly weight wise, though Kelly is a very physical runner at the goal line.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 10, 2018, 10:04 PM

Pretty IMPRESSIVE post there young man. Good points. ...I love and respect Kelly B but it appears it's only a matter of time before Trev gets the keys to the kingdom. I'm sure he will earn it so hey that's all any of us can ask for.....GO TIGERS!!

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I appreciate all that but your point about the talent...


Aug 10, 2018, 11:14 PM

surrounding both quarterbacks brings an honest, clear headed, objective person to only one conclusion.

I said this before today. The word 'utilize,' doesn't mean 'use,' though most people use it in place of use. It means 'to make the most of,' or 'get the most out of.'

If we are intending on true utilization of TL and our talented defense we must condition TL early in the season and continue to use him when the outcome of the game is in question. That will desensitize him to the pressure of playing FBS football when all the marbles are at risk. The more he experiences it the more comfortable he is with the pressure.

If we are intending to utilize our receivers we must have a quarterback who has a cannon attached to his shoulder and a laser guided aim for every passing play in our book. That is also true if we are to utilize our running backs. Without a deadly deep threat our RB will be limited.

Without a deep threat everyone on our team will have to be flawless to beat a Saban led defense. Others may give us trouble too but Saban has proven that he can stop a short passing game and handle an excellent running team. That's was his offensive scheme for decades and he has enough talent to beat anyone if they play his game.

Our defense will suffer if either quarterback is shy at throwing the ball and runs the ball too soon.

If you think KB can meet those requirements then I'll thank you and ask that we agree to disagree.

I really enjoyed your post. It was filled with all the right things presented accurately.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®




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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 11, 2018, 12:46 AM

Nice post. Keep it up.

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Re: First Post: Thoughts on QB Situation (Warning: VERY Long)


Aug 11, 2018, 6:49 AM

Great post thanks!

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