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Ethanol 15 Gas
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Replies: 35  

Ethanol 15 Gas


Apr 12, 2022, 11:53 AM

Who's in? Personally, I can't wait to save $0.10 a gallon!

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/biden-to-announce-e15-gasoline-use-to-help-increase-fuel-supply-reduce-gas-prices#&_intcmp=hp1bt2,hp1bt


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Ethanol 15 ?

[1]
Apr 12, 2022, 11:56 AM

hard pass, there's already enough #### in the gasoline supply

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Hard pass?!? You’re such a wussy!


Apr 12, 2022, 12:31 PM

I’d drink it!

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Isnt that what E85 is that they sell at the spinx?***


Apr 12, 2022, 12:00 PM



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Yeah, that's what I thought.***


Apr 12, 2022, 12:06 PM



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Opposite...

[3]
Apr 12, 2022, 12:40 PM

E85 is 85% ethanol.

E15 is 15% ethanol.

Unleaded gasoline (87, 89, 91, 93) allowed to be up to E10 (10% ethanol).

Congress had the ethanol subsidies removed under Obama and then he threatened veto. So they stay in, even today.

I find it ironic that Biden is increasing the mandate to 15% ethanol while it destroys the environment and consumes so much water. How green of him.

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Tax credits.


Apr 12, 2022, 2:26 PM

Farmers will be very quick to tell you they get no subsidies from growing corn for ethanol.

They do get tax credits however.

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stuff is terrible

[3]
Apr 12, 2022, 12:25 PM

you gas mileage goes down 10%, so the pennies you save by $ per gallon negates because of the worse mileage.

I used it ONCE when I had a E15 truck, learned my lesson and moved on.
Only morons will use it with glee, but that's the target audience obviously.

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Re: stuff is terrible


Apr 12, 2022, 1:09 PM

Worse mileage AND hard on the engine. Ridiculous move.

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How is it hard on the engine?


Apr 12, 2022, 2:22 PM

I understand that on older vehicles that weren't designed to run on it (rubber hoses dry out etc), but since the ethanol adds octane and is a good cleaner, it may not be that bad.

As long as it doesn't sit for more than about 45 days and phase separate into a mostly gas/some alcohol/some water/some goo substance.

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Re: How is it hard on the engine? Here's how.


Apr 12, 2022, 2:47 PM

From Fuel & Friction website (.com).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not all cars can run ethanol type fuels safely

Older vehicles (prior to 2008 and any vehicle not specifically built to burn ethanol) are taken out of the equation from the beginning. Ethanol has a corrosive action on fuel-system components, magnesium, aluminium and rubber. Running E85 on older model engines without tuning and replacing some components will ruin the engine in short time.

Replacing fuel hoses, fuel pumps, gaskets, seals, fuel filters, fuel injectors, throttle bodies, etc. and other components besides tuning your fuel system, can easily run the bill up since you need to change so many components to properly run E85 fuel blends.

There are recent models that have been designed to work with ethanol-gas mixtures up to a certain point or FFV (Flex Fuel Vehicle) that can run with any blend up to E85, but still use caution unless your vehicle warranty specifically states that you're covered in the event of damage related to E85.

++++++++++++++++

E85 fuels are hygroscopic

That translates into a short storage and tank life because its prone to absorb moisture from the air. It also means that depending on how long the gas stays in your tank or the humidity level of your geographic area, you can experience poor performance and even problems with fuel injectors.

+++++++++++++++++

It's susceptible for pre-ignition

Due to its ethanol component, it's more likely to ignite before the piston compresses and the spark plug does its job.

All it takes is an impulse such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events. This doesn't sound like something all that bad, but it certainly is.

Pre-ignition means that the fuel sprayed into the cylinder ignites before it should thus creating an unbalance in the engine internals and putting stress on components. This leads to engine knock where the combustion process doesn't happen at the optimum time for a four-stroke cycle.

The shock wave creates the characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and cylinder pressure increases dramatically. Effects of engine knocking range from inconsequential to completely destructive as (the author) can personally attest to.

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I mentioned this first couple things, but I disagree with


Apr 12, 2022, 2:55 PM

that last one.

Generally, Ethanol laced gas is higher octane..that be definition octane is the measure of a fuel's ability to resist "knocking" or "pinging" during combustion, caused by the air/fuel mixture detonating prematurely in the engine.

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Re: I mentioned this first couple things, but I disagree with


Apr 13, 2022, 5:09 PM

Did a tiny bit of additional 'research' (if you can call it that), and that indicates you might be right, but not necessarily for the reason that you had provided.

Octane Vapor Pressure ... 12.9 Torr at 25 degrees Celsius
Ethanol Vapor Pressure .. 44 Torr at 25 degrees Celsius

Pentane (one of the larger hydrocarbons in gasoline) ... VP of 511 Torr at 25 C
Hexane (one of the larger hydrocarbons in gasoline) ... VP of 150 Torr at 25 C
Toluene ( " " " " " " " ) ... VP of 28.4 Torr at 25 C

The purpose of octane is to introduce a lower vapor pressure (i.e., less volatile) component into gasline to inhibit pings and knocks.

Ethanol has a higher VP than Octane, and is therefore not as good of a 'knock / ping' reducer as octane.

HOWEVER, as an 'octane equivalent,' EtOH has a lower vapor pressure than most of the 'other' components of gasoline ... which in effect would give EtOH type gasline an inherently lower vapor pressure than 'regular' gasoline.

If the theory that lower vapor pressure = less pings and knocks, then indeed EtOH gasoline will have less knocking than even high Octane 'normal' gasoline. If, if, if ... that's the real question.

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I'm not sure what to tell you.


Apr 13, 2022, 5:31 PM

Look at a gas pump. Find the one with E85. Look at the octane rating.

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Re: I'm not sure what to tell you.


Apr 14, 2022, 5:21 PM

Actually, the DEFINITION of octane is a linear or branched (but not cyclic) hydrocarbon with the molecular composition of C8 H18. But your point about ethanol in fuels / octane RATING looks good.

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wow you are really beating up this one***


Apr 14, 2022, 5:22 PM



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wait, junge libs told me a President couldnt affect gas

[1]
Apr 12, 2022, 12:36 PM

prices.

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Lotta people in this thread that hate

[1]
Apr 12, 2022, 12:47 PM

God Fearing American Farmers






/s in case you couldn't figure that out

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“When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?”
John Maynard Keynes
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
Isaac Asimov


We could use those 30 million acres to grow something useful


Apr 12, 2022, 1:05 PM

Like anything else. Ethanol make very little difference in the amount of fuel consumed by the driving population. Most vehicles get worse MPG with E10 than they'd have with E0. The 07 4Runner I had lost 10% fuel economy running E10. The ethanol volume made no impact on how much gasoline I burned. It was better to run E0 than waste the 10% ethanol.

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Stupid Iowa caucus.***

[1]
Apr 12, 2022, 1:07 PM



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Stupid Sakerlina gamecaucuses.***

[1]
Apr 12, 2022, 2:14 PM



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^^ wants the Middle Eastern Terrorists to win ^^


Apr 12, 2022, 1:54 PM

/s means sarcasm

I’m sure if they could make more money turning it into something useful like high fructose corn syrup they would

2022 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpgringofhonor-cu85tiger.jpg flag link


“When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?”
John Maynard Keynes
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
Isaac Asimov


I don't understand.


Apr 12, 2022, 2:17 PM

You said "The 07 4Runner I had lost 10% fuel economy running E10."

Then you said "The ethanol volume made no impact on how much gasoline I burned"

If you got worse gas mileage, you were burning more gas and ethanol, right?

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Re: I don't understand.


Apr 12, 2022, 3:00 PM

I read his post differently ...

Sentence A: "The ethanol volume made no impact on how much gasoline I burned."

Sentence B: "It was better to run E0 than waste the 10% ethanol."

IMO, Sentence A meant that the ethanol content in the gasoline + ethanol blend did not reduce the amount of GASOLINE that he burned. This means that the overall amount of FUEL that he burned was more, but the amount of GASOLINE burned in the gas / EtOH fuel blend was actually the same as if he'd just run 'unblended' E0 (e.g., pure "GASOLINE") fuel.

Once Sentence A is understood, then Sentence B is intuitive.

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I read this 4x


Apr 12, 2022, 3:10 PM

And unless there was leftover ethanol...how would anyone know how much gasoline was burned vs ethanol in a gasoline ethanol blend?

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Re: I read this 4x


Apr 13, 2022, 4:43 PM

Let's say I burned 10 gallons of E10 going 200 miles. Since it's E10, 10% of that 10 gallons was ethanol. 9 gallons was gas.

9 gallons of gas to go 200 miles. 22.2 MPG on pure gasoline.

10 gallons of ethanol free gas got me 222 miles. 22.2 MPG on pure gasoline.

Basically the added content of 10% ethanol gained me nothing in distance.

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Thats an odd way of looking at it.


Apr 13, 2022, 5:39 PM

I doubt 100 gallons of ethanol is going to get the same gas mileage as 5 gallons of non-ethanol laced gas though.

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Re: Thats an odd way of looking at it.

[1]
Apr 14, 2022, 10:18 AM

That's how the government accounts for gasoline consumption for fleet averages for Flex Fuel vehicles.

Say a Tahoe is rated 20 MPG. GM gets to take a percentage of their Tahoes since they are flex fuel and get to apply the math I used toward their fleet average.

1 gallon = 20 miles
E85 is 15% gas. So 0.15 gallons = 20 miles travels. 20/0.15 = 133 MPG.

So GM gets to apply a certain percentage of Tahoes to their feet average at 133 MPG.

It's the voodoo math they all get to use which is why they'll be able to meet 49 MPG fleet average in 2026. They wont have a single vehicle that gets 49 MPG, but somehow their fleet will comply. It's all BS.

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Re: Ethanol 15 Gas


Apr 12, 2022, 1:45 PM

Smooth move. Makes people feel good about cost cutting while decreasing the lifetime of their gas guzzling autos, moving them more quickly to inevitable EV transition.

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While I hate the stuff, I don't know how burning ethanol


Apr 12, 2022, 2:19 PM

will be harmful for most newer vehicles. Most cars after about 2010 are all "flex fuel" cars.

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How are they going to grow the corn for all that ethanol

[1]
Apr 12, 2022, 2:12 PM

when fertilizer is through the roof? Oh yeah:

A senior administration official also said that the Department of Agriculture plans to allocate millions of dollars to a variety of programs—including $700 million to help fund biofuel producers from the Biofuel Producer Program; $5.6 million in grants for infrastructure for renewable fuels; and $100 million for biofuels infrastructure.


I feel like we're in a vicious tailspin at the moment...

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I would think this would be a supply/demand issue.


Apr 12, 2022, 2:46 PM

The admin isn't going to mandate you buy E-15. They are going to allow it at gas pumps to be sold.

If enough people don't want it, I doubt many places will sell it.

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A better use of that corn is to feed human beings on this


Apr 12, 2022, 4:46 PM

planet that are going to be without wheat because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

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I don;'t think the corn used to make ethanol is


Apr 12, 2022, 5:41 PM

even edible for people.

But there is the argument that the same land being used to grow that corn could be used for something else.

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Starving folks aren't real picky... grind it up and make


Apr 12, 2022, 5:56 PM

corn flour...

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It's either that or release 3 more days of oil


Apr 13, 2022, 6:20 PM

from the strategic oil reserves.

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When we drink, we get drunk.
When we get drunk, we fall asleep.
When we fall asleep, we commit no sin.
When we commit no sin, we go to heaven.
So, let's all get drunk, and go to heaven!


Replies: 35  

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