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Hall of Famer [22208]
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Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 11:35 AM
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If I am recruited by a person or company to provide a service, then I am an employee. If a person or company is providing a service to me, then I am not an employee.
Once upon a time, it was easy. A university was providing a service to a student - an opportunity to earn a degree. Colleges recruited students due to their academic potential and ability. Colleges also, as an inducement, provided extra-curricular activities for the students to entice them to enroll and to enrich their academic experience.
Today, the situation is cloudy. Colleges still provide a service to the student/athlete - an opportunity to earn a degree. But, the primary purpose of recruiting the athlete is so that he can provide a service to the college - play football.
It could be argued that the degree is part of the "benefits package" given to the athlete when he accepts the job offer.
I'm no lawyer, much less a judge. I don't know how to legally decide the question. But, I do know who I blame for the dilemma. The colleges. They are recruiting these athletes for the primary purpose of the athlete providing them a service that will financially benefit the college. They are not recruiting the athlete for the purpose of earning a degree and having football as an inducement to get him to accept their offer.
Seems like a legal argument could be made that the football player is an employee of the school.
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All-In [48115]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 11:51 AM
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It's going to be interesting how they decide. Really good presentation you provided. Thanks.
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All-TigerNet [10904]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 12:15 PM
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Great! You can fire an employee when they aren't producing.
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All-In [48115]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 12:23 PM
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And that's why imo the the nlb will vote it down. But what I read and hear, it'll be contract clauses to negotiate that stuff. So who knows. It's wild.
The good thing, in said contract, the player will not be able to arbitrarily leave. They'll be locked in for 4 years.
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All-In [43992]
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I don’t see how there will ever be any four year contracts.
Dec 17, 2022, 2:36 PM
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Players hold the power here, and I don’t see someone agreeing to a “long term” deal like that when another school will be happy to give them a one year deal.
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Hall of Famer [22208]
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That would be one of the unintended consequences.
Dec 17, 2022, 8:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question. ] |
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Would they be the equivalent of an adjunct instructor, a non-tenured instructor?
I would assume they would soon unionize and terms of termination would have to be negotiated.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 12:20 PM
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It is the colleges. But they circumvent, the original purpose because of the intense pressure to win ball games "by boosters, fans, alumni"!
Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed. If we are talking about getting it back.
The money involved.
The money involved.
College football lost its innocence when the amount of money being made became so lucrative!
I think it would take a complete reset.
I think you would have to have NIL leagues and scholarship leagues!
Just my two cents.
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110%er [8885]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 12:36 PM
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i think they are employees, state employees for some schools, and their open positions should be publically advertised for 30 days before hiring
now, how does the NCAA has any authority concerning a state employee
lol?
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110%er [7173]
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Booth Fee! Tip Out Fee!
Dec 17, 2022, 1:47 PM
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My thing about how "the players" are able to use the school to get to the next level(NFL) or get NIL(private contract $$$) deals - should they have to pay back the school on the grounds: "THE SCHOOL PROVIDED THE PLATFORM"?
People will not like the question. I get it. I am one of those people that was shocked at Chris Webber "they are selling my jersey at the student center for $76 and selling out of them, and I can't even afford a value meal at McDonald's"!
I got that and I understand that. There was a middle ground i.m.o that could have been reached, but the NCAA dropped the ball.
Are they making money for the school you may ask, yes they are! But, like hairdressers or strippers if you are using someone else's platform to profit for yourself directly( should there not be a fee ).
Crazy talk and it will never happen. And, I am good with that. But, among the many things that college football is going through now, finding some way to get more about getting an education again is paramount.
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CU Guru [1577]
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Great post
Dec 17, 2022, 2:21 PM
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It seems like the cats out of the bag and the only way forward is everyone being honest about the relationships and the fact they’re primarily business oriented.
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Freshman [-65]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 1:36 PM
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In what industry are employees allowed to receive compensation while at the same time getting known brain damage? Seems like a work-hazard that will be tough to work around.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 8:36 PM
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In what industry are employees allowed to receive compensation while at the same time getting known brain damage? Seems like a work-hazard that will be tough to work around.
Plenty of occupations are dangerous. Fireman, miners and construction to name a few
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CU Guru [1998]
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Student athletes
Dec 17, 2022, 2:31 PM
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I'm ok with Clemson only playing club sports if it goes the employee route
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All-In [43992]
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Exactly, and that’s true for every division I football program.
Dec 17, 2022, 2:34 PM
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Including Clemson.
Higher education is broken.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 3:21 PM
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Let us (football donors, supporters, fans) avoid our responsibility here. We all contribute to the desire to win football games as a top priority. We put pressure on schools to make the kinds of decisions that we are decrying here.
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Associate AD [828]
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Employees or not employees - toothpaste may be out of the tube but Clemson may be different!.
Dec 17, 2022, 4:33 PM
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National Labor Relations Board Regional Director decision yesterday opens the door for college athletes as “employees.” Kinda a back door to the “employee” question via the Unfair Labor Practice route. Still a ton of litigation ahead but Pandora is definitely peaking out of her box. Even if NLRB and the courts uphold college athletes as “employees,” Clemson and UofSC may not be impacted (see below).
From CNN:
“The matter of whether college athletes are professionals, and thus employees, has been hotly debated for decades. But the NLRB's regional director in Los Angeles found that there was merit in this specific complaint and that the athletes should be considered employees.
NLRB General Counsel Jennifer Abruzzo issued a statement that the finding that the unfair labor practice complaints "have merit is based on a determination that USC, the Pac-12 Conference, and the NCAA, as joint employers, have maintained unlawful rules and unlawfully misclassified scholarship basketball and football players as mere 'student-athletes' rather than employees entitled to protections under our law."
"This kind of misclassification deprives these players of their statutory right to organize and to join together to improve their working/playing conditions if they wish to do so," she added. "Our aim is to ensure that these players can fully and freely exercise their rights."
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As Clemson and UofSC are both state schools and I believe SC State law precludes state employees from unionizing, it seems to me that would also apply to college athletes and they could not organize as a union. I’m not sure if this would be good or bad: e.g., “come play at Miami (private school) and we can provide you the following union contract benefits that you won’t get at Clemson!
I found this on the interwebs, so not sure of its accuracy:
“First of all, the NLRB only has legal authority over labor relations in the private sector, not in the public sector. Most major college sports programs are at state schools and, thus, their employees, be they student athletes, professors or other staff, would not have their labor relations overseen by the NLRB.”
I had experience in the Federal Sector labor relations under the Federal Labor Relations Authority - modeled after the NLRB - under PL 95-454. Had some cases where contractor employees sought legal determination they were both contractor AND Federal employees. FLRA had several factors they reviewed: hirining/firing, daily work assignments, performance review, leave usage, etc.
Complex issue - do we have any attorneys out there with NLRB expertise to weigh in on this issue?
Go Tigers!
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All-Pro [656]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 4:47 PM
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IRS has a publication of guidelines of characteristics for employee vs. contractor. One of those is a contractor generally has his/her own place of business, own tools, etc. Contractors generally have many clients, not just one. Contractors set their own work hours, employees do not. there are dozens more.
i know my opinion and it seems clear to me.
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All-Pro [656]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 4:50 PM
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Oh yeah, if employees there might be more than a few worker's comp. "accidents". I'd hate to see that wrok. comp. payroll rate. OUCH.
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Associate AD [828]
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Not to mention the potential “cross crafting” problem!
Dec 17, 2022, 5:00 PM
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Electrician fixing an electric outlet couldn’t remove an obstructing wood trim as that was carpenters - another craft- work.
I can see “I’m a defensive tackle, it’s a violation of our union contract for me to play defensive end.” Not my job, man!
Go Tigers!
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110%er [7929]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 5:06 PM
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Simple, do they receive a W-2 for the full value of their scholarship and benefits? If not they are not an employee. The slap-dicks can’t tell you the difference between a man and a woman so it’s not surprising they are confused
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Orange Blooded [2313]
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Re: Employees or not employees, that is the question.
Dec 17, 2022, 8:32 PM
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They are not employees as students, but as athletes. What the IRS will consider "income" will make these young adults squirm in their sleep. You just know that these 88,000 new IRS agents will go after this low hanging fruit. The universities will have more new accountants busy with keeping up itemized lists of what each Student-Athlete received. The bowl swag will also be considered income. This will quickly become a bottomless swamp.
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