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All-In [26497]
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Pubs want vaccine mandate for welfare recipients
Nov 4, 2021, 3:58 PM
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Not really ...
Just illustrating how dumb of an idea mandates are.
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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I really wish the speed limit mandates would end
Nov 4, 2021, 4:03 PM
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And the seatbelt and insurance mandates....screw that. All those vaccines my kids have to take to go to school, those mandates suck too. And that property tax mandate. The worst is the unleaded fuel mandate, which is almost as bad as the mandate to remove lead from paint, which is almost as bad as the mandate they change freon formulations on HVAC systems. The 10% ethanol mandate......so many of them.
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All-In [26497]
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Speed limit is a unenforced mandate
Nov 4, 2021, 4:09 PM
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Not sure I would have lead with that one
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All-In [34105]
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*led
Nov 4, 2021, 4:12 PM
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Unless you're referring to a lead foot.
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All-In [26497]
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Think the Autocorrect got me.***
Nov 4, 2021, 4:19 PM
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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All-TigerNet [13098]
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Re: My mandated auto insurance premiums say different***
Nov 4, 2021, 5:27 PM
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You have a mandate to have insurance? You can choose not to.
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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You can't legally drive without insurance. So you can choose
Nov 4, 2021, 7:05 PM
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to not drive, or drive illegally. Same with vaccine "mandates". The government isn't forcing you to get vaccinated. But they can tell you that you can't work for them unless you do, just like a private business can.
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Except the govt is forcing private employers to mandate it
Nov 4, 2021, 7:23 PM
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Via threat of heavy OSHA fines. They’re basically using mob tactics, and that seems to be the nuance many are totally ignoring.
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Legend [18018]
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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I view that the same as I do the fed mandates***
Nov 4, 2021, 7:51 PM
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Legend [18018]
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cool, and just so I can get a baseline here...
Nov 4, 2021, 7:57 PM
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What is your view on mandatory vaccines for kids to go to school like the measles vaccine?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: cool, and just so I can get a baseline here...
Nov 4, 2021, 7:59 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Legend [18018]
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Fair enough
Nov 4, 2021, 9:11 PM
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So, it's not the mandating you have issues with, but it's the "unknown" health concerns you have over the way two of the three vaccines were created. So, if you thought them safe you'd have no issues with mandating them.
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Not necessarily, I absolutely have a problem with govt.
Nov 4, 2021, 10:08 PM
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Mandating private businesses or schools to require it, whether through threat of OSHA fines or otherwise. But yes, I’ve been firm from the get-go that I want to see at least 3 years of results…and that goes for all 3 vaccines in this country, as well as others around the world. I was always skeptical of the “90%+ effective” claims, and the ever waning efficacy isn’t helping sell me.
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Legend [18018]
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Which sounds like it's only because you distrust the vaccine
Nov 5, 2021, 12:08 AM
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Because vaccines like the measles* vaccine are already mandated and you're okay with that because you trust that vaccine is safe. But let's go with your timeline to confirm. In three years, if the covid vaccines have proven themselves safe and schools/government are mandating them like with measles vaccine will you be for or against schools/businesses mandating them?
*fun fact: the measles vaccine we use now is the same one since its invention in 1968, though it's part of MMR which we started using in 1971.
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Nov 5, 2021, 1:48 AM
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Last I heard people aren’t getting fired for not being up to date on their measles vaccine. Or getting special privileges for getting the flu shot. Why do you continue to ignore that my problem is with the fact that the govt is forcing private entities to mandate this under threat of fines?
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Legend [18018]
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Because I'm not seeing the distinction you're applying
Nov 5, 2021, 2:22 AM
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between the measles vaccine mandate (can't go to school) and the covid vaccine mandate (fired/fines) other than the fact that you believe the covid vaccine to be unsafe. That's not a problem with the mandate, that's a problem with the vaccine. I'm trying to either understand what distinction you are applying or I'm trying to get you to see there isn't a distinction.
As for the mandate itself, isn't the mandate that all workers either get the vaccine OR get tested every week? So, if you don't want to take the vaccine, you still have the option not too. That's a pretty big detail to leave out of this discussion.
And really, the scale needed to enforce the mandate seems daunting so I'm not sure how effective it will be so this all seems possibly philosophical rather than a practical reality.
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Then I don’t know what to tell you, because I’m not sure how
Nov 5, 2021, 9:22 AM
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To make it more clear: the govt is not forcing private businesses and schools to require their labor to get the measles vaccine under threat of OSHA fines or otherwise, nor are they requiring weekly testing. This is all new, and its something private business would not otherwise require because they can’t find people as is. This is mafia protection racket tactics to force everyone into getting a vaccine that has no track record and the efficacy is ever changing.
You’re putting words in my mouth saying I don’t think it’s safe, I don’t know if it is or not. It’s in stage 3 trials, time will tell. You clearly don’t deal with OSHA because all they have to do it look at a company wrong and they’ll do whatever it takes to stay out of their war path.
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All-TigerNet [13098]
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Really? Interesting.
Nov 4, 2021, 7:57 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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So you think that list is a bunch of nanny-state nonsense,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:49 PM
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and all of those things should be unregulated.
"Here are a bunch of things that can kill you, but since corporations have your best interests in mind over easy profits, I'm sure they'll choose the safe, ethical, and more expensive option of their own accord."
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Oculus Spirit [79428]
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Lol, is not having ethanol in my gas going to kill me?
Nov 4, 2021, 6:16 PM
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Not having property taxes would be a risk to my health? The funny part about your line regarding corporations not having my best interest in mind over easy profits is the fact corporations, who might I add donate buckets of money to politicians, are raking it in with the vaccines many have decided are sent from God.
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CU Medallion [60034]
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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You are very close here. Really.
Nov 4, 2021, 5:35 PM
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It was the price of ICE at gas stations, not water. Never complained about the price of chicken nuggets, not sure where that one came from.
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CU Medallion [60034]
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Spitballin’ here. Point stands
Nov 4, 2021, 6:18 PM
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as the reality is even worse. Continue on.
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110%er [5669]
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FYI: ICE = FROZEN WATER***
Nov 5, 2021, 11:25 AM
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Commissioner [996]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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You cycle back and forth between being reasonable on this,
Nov 4, 2021, 4:52 PM
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and then posting nonsense. Simple question: do you believe that a vaccinated person has less of a chance of 1) being infected with Covid, and 2) transmitting Covid? Or is it the same probability, since a vaccinated person CAN in fact be infected and CAN in fact pass the virus to others? Your post indicates that it's binary. I'm pretty certain you also know that's not even close to factual.
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Taking a vaccine, in my case was absolutely NOT a personal
Nov 4, 2021, 5:08 PM
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choice. I didn't take it to keep from getting covid. I knew better before April of this year. I didn't take it to keep my family from getting covid either. We all took it, not as a personal choice, not as something for us, to keep us safe, but to keep hospitals from overflowing. So a kid in an auto accident can get that surgery, and critical care THEY need. So the cancer patient can get their care. So no veterans die from gallstones because no hospital can take them, or a kid with appendicitis can't get a timely surgery.
I did it to hopefully keep me out of a hospital, so someone who needs it more than I do can. Same reason I wear a mask. It's not to protect ME, it's to protect everyone else in the store. Same with drunk driving. All things being equal, I'd drink and drive all the time. I don't because I could kill SOMEONE ELSE. My dad, back in the 80's was the same way with seat belts. He HATED the law, and refused to wear one. I did, much as kids today are more willing to wear masks, they were also more willing to take up seatbelts. One day I was driving (probably about 16yo) and dad was in the passenger seat. We got in the car. I remember as clear as day. As we were pulling out of the driveway I asked dad to put on his seatbelt. He refused. Said it was his own personal choice, and the government wasn't going to force him to do anything.
So I told dad, "I don't care if we get in a wreck and you die. That's your choice. Your freedom. HOWEVER, IF we get in a wreck, I'd just assume not be injured by your 250lbs flying all around the car." The look he had.......
From literally THAT day until he passed, he put on a seatbelt. He never once thought of it that way I'm sure. Up until that conversation, it was all about him. Freedom. And that's fine, but too often people get so obsessed with freedom they fail to see how their actions impact others.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Taking a vaccine, in my case was absolutely NOT a personal
Nov 4, 2021, 5:18 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Best argument is to not take up a hospital bed.***
Nov 4, 2021, 5:24 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Best argument is to not take up a hospital bed.***
Nov 4, 2021, 5:34 PM
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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But that entire list you just posted is things that are
Nov 4, 2021, 5:37 PM
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harmful only to yourself (I guess you could put second-hand smoke and wrecking a motorcycle into somebody causing injury as potential hazards to others). Those are actual personal choices, by definition.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: But that entire list you just posted is things that are
Nov 4, 2021, 5:46 PM
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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Well, you do, since we have the internet and can
Nov 4, 2021, 5:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: You cycle back and forth between being reasonable on this, ] |
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dO oUr OwN rEsEaRcH.
The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) The risks of SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated, but the benefits of relaxing some measures may outweigh the residual risk. This page offers background rationale and data for public health recommendations for fully vaccinated people.
Another CDC publication indicated somewhere between 39-85% reduced chance of both infection and transmissibility. That's significant. And anecdotally, my two unvaccinated daughters both picked it up at school, and my wife, son, and myself, all vaccinated, either didn't get it, or had exactly zero symptoms if we did. I believe it to be the former.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Well, you do, since we have the internet and can
Nov 4, 2021, 5:41 PM
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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How many hospitalized.
Nov 4, 2021, 6:51 PM
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All I care about.
Again I will bring out the graph, updated this time.
https://public.tableau.com/shared/6SPP59SJN?:toolbar=n&:tabs=n&:display_count=n&:origin=viz_share_link&:#####=y
The area in green is non-covid deaths. In the places where that green crosses the line into excess deaths, those are EXTRA people who died beyond "normal" levels from stuff that's not covid. It coincides with covid spikes. Those people in the green above the line are the collateral damage for individual freedoms. More Americans have paid the price for freedoms from masks and vaccines in the US than died in Vietnam. Over 160,000 nationwide. And they're not even fighting communists. They're fighting their school board, city/town councils, governors, and state legislatures. Those deaths in the green, above that line, those people died (mostly) from a lack of access to medical care, because some freedom loving nutjob protested to not have to wear a mask, or get a vaccine. It's a personal choice. Desantis said so. It doesn't effects anyone else. Except those 160,000 extra dead people.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: How many hospitalized.
Nov 4, 2021, 6:59 PM
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Wearing a seatbelt, no smoking on planes, mandatory
Nov 4, 2021, 7:03 PM
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air bags in cars, speed limits, motorcycle helmet laws, drunk driving laws, outlawing addictive dangerous drugs like crack, stuff like that you mean? Yeah, I guess we would have to start doing stuff like that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Wearing a seatbelt, no smoking on planes, mandatory
Nov 4, 2021, 7:18 PM
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Wearing a seatbelt, no smoking on planes, mandatory
Nov 4, 2021, 7:49 PM
[ in reply to Wearing a seatbelt, no smoking on planes, mandatory ] |
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How many of those proactive “mandates” (ones that are telling you what not to do like DUI and drugs) will you lose your job over? How about a mandate against gay sex to keep the HIV from spreading? How about a mandate on marsh mellows? How about a mandate banning tobacco and alcohol use- lotteries- etc etc etc.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I really wish the speed limit mandates would end
Nov 4, 2021, 4:40 PM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: I really wish the speed limit mandates would end
Nov 4, 2021, 5:27 PM
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Yes they are. You can pay off your house and your truck but you never really own them.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I really wish the speed limit mandates would end
Nov 4, 2021, 7:22 PM
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Lot o points [155801]
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All-TigerNet [10882]
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Pubs want vaccine mandate for welfare recipients
Nov 4, 2021, 4:04 PM
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That would be great.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Why don't we start with illegal immigrants***
Nov 4, 2021, 4:12 PM
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All-In [26497]
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They were dispersed without addresses ... we don't know
Nov 4, 2021, 4:19 PM
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where they are.
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All-TigerNet [12591]
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Re: They were dispersed without addresses ... we don't know
Nov 4, 2021, 4:28 PM
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More will now be sent to northern VA. JK?
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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I think there should be mandatory birth
Nov 4, 2021, 5:26 PM
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control for welfare recipients.
Seriously.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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You failed in your effort.***
Nov 4, 2021, 6:46 PM
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All-TigerNet [10882]
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Exhibit 12,132,561,612 of why Republicans suck so hard.
Nov 4, 2021, 8:11 PM
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Instead of pushing back, they accept the premise, then try to use it to score political points.
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All-In [26497]
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So you got nothing ...***
Nov 5, 2021, 9:24 AM
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Hall of Famer [21929]
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I feel like people arguing for mandates
Nov 5, 2021, 10:25 AM
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are just digging their heels in on their original political position regarding this whole #### show that has been covid.
The vaccine isn't stopping the spread of the virus. We can hemm haw all we want about the other gotcha statistics, but when looking at a high level, the vaccines aren't really working to eradicate this virus like other vaccines y'all have bitched about on here.
There is a significant risk to males my age having heart complications. And since I've been to a cardiologist twice this year already, hard pass for me. The numbers I ran in another thread back up my statement from a risk assessment perspective. I'm certainly not a doctor, but I'll put my data analysis skills up against pretty much anyone in the country in my age bracket.
Flu shots aren't mandated, these shouldn't be either. From a high level, seems to me they're the same thing.
Also - with Pfizer coming out with their version of Ivermectin, do we really need to take the vaccine? Seems to have the same effect of reducing hospitalizations, which is now the only argument to take the vaccine.
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