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Replies: 66
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CU Guru [1718]
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Athlon says Clemson flopped with decision on Stoudt
Oct 3, 2014, 10:35 AM
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Clemson starts the season with Cole Stoudt at quarterback
Dabo Swinney probably didn’t want to start his highly touted true freshman in the opener in Athens against Georgia, especially with a senior on the roster. Stoudt struggled against Georgia (16-of-28, one interceptions) before giving way to freshman Deshaun Watson early against Florida State. Watson is 46-of-64 for 701 yards with seven total touchdowns and one interception since becoming the primary quarterback.
http://athlonsports.com/college-football/10-offseason-college-football-moves-flopped-2014
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Legend [16058]
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Hate to say it but they are right***
Oct 3, 2014, 10:41 AM
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CU Guru [1327]
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They are right, but there is no use crying over
Oct 3, 2014, 10:44 AM
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spilled milk. The future is bright!!!
Go Tigers!!!
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110%er [7011]
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Re: They are right, but there is no use crying over
Oct 3, 2014, 1:00 PM
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just like 0-5 against USC and 3 in a row to FSU
and our coaches like to talk about accountability
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All-In [30593]
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DW is a player... but I have to disagree
Oct 3, 2014, 10:49 AM
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Cole played exceptionally well in the 1st half in Athens. The 2nd half was turrible for both CS and DW. I don't think you can say that we win that game if DW gets most of the 2nd half snaps.
DW plays most of the FSU game, and the QB situation had nothing to do with us losing that one.
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Zealot [763]
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So you're saying that DW
Oct 3, 2014, 10:58 AM
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Would not have manufactured any points the first three drives against FSU?
I agree that DW should not have started against UGA, but I have to believe if we gave Deshaun 3 more opportunities to score we would have won that game. What's done is done though.
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All-In [30593]
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absolutely no way to blame FSU loss on QB situation
Oct 3, 2014, 11:00 AM
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that's the definition of grasping
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Legend [16629]
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Agreed.
Oct 3, 2014, 11:01 AM
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Plus we done argued this for weeks on end already.
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Zealot [763]
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At what point in my post did I blame
Oct 3, 2014, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to absolutely no way to blame FSU loss on QB situation ] |
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Our loss on QB play?
Among the snap, CJ's fumble, Greene's play against busted coverage, and the missed FG's, I have to believe based on his performance that an additional three drives for Deshaun would've given us a great opportunity to win the game despite those other missed opportunities.
Not sure how you could think otherwise after watching both QB's perform though four games.
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All-In [30593]
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so... just so I'm clear
Oct 3, 2014, 11:10 AM
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we were in the RZ 7 times against FSU, and came away with 17 points. Most of those possessions were with DW.
but your contention is that we probably score more if he had the the first 3 drives?
Message was edited by: york_tiger®
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Zealot [763]
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Umm, yea
Oct 3, 2014, 11:16 AM
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That's exactly what I'm saying.
There's a reason Cole Stoudt didn't see the field for the rest of the game after DW came in.
Was it the reason we lost the game? Absolutely not.
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All-In [30593]
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no... you argued that given 3 more chances
Oct 3, 2014, 11:23 AM
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DW scores and we win
I pointed out that DWs stats in the RZ against FSU say otherwise. You can argue a lot of stuff, but that's fact.
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Team Captain [459]
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Come on York...use some common sense here...
Oct 3, 2014, 11:28 AM
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Given three more possessions with DW at quarterback, the chances are pretty solid that we come away with more points.
He never said the QB position was why we lost...It wasn't...
But come on man. The times we didn't score on our red zone possessions had nothing to do with DW. It had everything to do with other people messing up (Lakip, Norton, Battle, Davidson, Stoudt).
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All-In [30593]
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are you reading what you are posting?
Oct 3, 2014, 11:31 AM
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we didn't convert with DW, in the red zone, which wasn't his fault... but give us a couple more chances and we'd obviously fix it
dood... You're arguing with a stat sheet
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Team Captain [459]
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Well I'm gonna turn it around on you then York...
Oct 3, 2014, 11:35 AM
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since we're arguing a stat sheet here....
Cole Stoudt led us into the red zone 1 time at FSU...We didn't score. His conversion rate was 0%.
DW led us into the red zone 6 times at FSU...We scored 3 times. HIs conversion rate was 50%....
So, as 864 said earlier, DW gives us a better chance to score if he plays three more drives...
Think about it York...you're arguing with a stat sheet.
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All-In [30593]
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so a 50% rate on points when in the RZ is what
Oct 3, 2014, 11:55 AM
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you are basing the "we probably score" argument on?
There is nothing to suggest we score more points if DW gets the ball 3 more times
My point is based in fact... yours is speculation
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Zealot [763]
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"Nothing to suggest...."
Oct 3, 2014, 12:02 PM
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^^^Hasn't watched a single Clemson football game this year.
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All-In [30593]
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what about the FSU game suggest to you that we score more
Oct 3, 2014, 12:04 PM
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if DW starts ?
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Uh, the wide open TD pass that Stoudt under threw too Leggett...
Oct 3, 2014, 12:09 PM
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Watson would have completed that pass
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All-In [30593]
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right***
Oct 3, 2014, 12:11 PM
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Legend [16629]
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york, speculation is fact.
Oct 3, 2014, 12:24 PM
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aren't you paying attention?
smh
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Team Captain [459]
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Well, York, I'm no mathematician, but if one QB is leading
Oct 3, 2014, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to so a 50% rate on points when in the RZ is what ] |
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us to points on 50% of his drives, and he has an additional 3 drives added to his workload, the law of averages says we will score more.
Funny what happens when I turn your "stat sheet" argument around on you, isn't it?
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All-In [30593]
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points 50% of the time when in the RZ is terrible
Oct 3, 2014, 1:09 PM
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and shouldn't be what you base your argument on
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: points 50% of the time when in the RZ is terrible
Oct 3, 2014, 1:14 PM
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Ok so should we pull him for 0%? How can someone possibly support giving the #2 QB meaningful reps in meaningful games when there is clear seperation between the two. Cole Stoudt threw a screen to A Scott and choked when it mattered. Watson routinely threw into tight windows to bring us downfield and the team let him down. You have to be Cole's dad or something.
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All-In [30593]
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what the hell are you talking about? i'm not advocating
Oct 3, 2014, 1:20 PM
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Cole
that's no where in this thread idjit
we're talking about "hypotheticals" of if DW had played more against FSU
how bout you read next time
gtfo
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Zealot [763]
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Wow, this thread got out of control quickly
Oct 3, 2014, 1:24 PM
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Not sure how so many parties got involved in our "debate" lol.
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: what the hell are you talking about? i'm not advocating
Oct 3, 2014, 1:50 PM
[ in reply to what the hell are you talking about? i'm not advocating ] |
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Oh so you didn't say that in this thread. Well since this thread is about the horrible decision to start Stoudt over Watson at any point this season what is your point for posting in this thread. That Watson, who leads the country in QBR, should play better?
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All-In [30593]
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i'm done b/c your an idiot interjecting yourself into a
Oct 3, 2014, 2:00 PM
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thread that you know nothing about
and talking #### that you know nothing about
not worth my time
Message was edited by: york_tiger®
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: i'm done b/c your an idiot interjecting yourself into a
Oct 3, 2014, 2:10 PM
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Sorry I posted in your thread bro.
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Team Captain [459]
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Don't put words into my mouth York. I never said 50% was
Oct 3, 2014, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to points 50% of the time when in the RZ is terrible ] |
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a good percentage for red zone scoring.
But it's certainly better than 0%.
And given what our argument is, I'll take 50% over 0%.
I find it funny that you're even trying to debate this with me, or anyone else for that matter.
It's obvious that you're just taking the opposite view to make some waves, but you might want to move on to the next topic.
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All-In [30593]
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if that floats your boat... but you still can't say we
Oct 3, 2014, 1:24 PM
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would have scored
and disregard the horrendous RZ stats we have
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Team Captain [459]
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York, please read the first sentence that I posted in this
Oct 3, 2014, 1:29 PM
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thread. It reads as follows:
"Given three more possessions with DW at quarterback, the chances are pretty solid that we come away with more points."
Notice "the chances are pretty solid" as compared to you telling me that I said "we would have scored."
I never disregarded those red zone stats. I just broke them down and gave you a different way of looking at them.
Once again, if DW plays those three series, THE CHANCES ARE PRETTY SOLID that we score on one of those drives.
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Zealot [763]
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The stats show
Oct 3, 2014, 11:45 AM
[ in reply to are you reading what you are posting? ] |
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That while other players around him (including Stoudt), failed to make plays, Deshaun consistently drove us down the field and gave us opportunities whether we capitalized or not.
Based on averages, I would think three more drives would've given us a good chance to put up additional points.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Oculus Spirit [96772]
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I'm not sure you understand the definition of "fact"***
Oct 3, 2014, 12:30 PM
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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CU Guru [1929]
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Re: Umm, yea
Oct 3, 2014, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to Umm, yea ] |
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I'm not trying to re-write history but this year by all the pre-season babble, we were going to have a re-building year. I say we, as a fan base, weren't willing to accept that assessment of our team but it was true. We are going to go places with these freshmen and next years class that we haven't been in 33 years. In a few years we'll have long forgotten the losses to UGA and FSU. We need to move on from the blame game...we have a lot to be hopeful for! Go Tigers!
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Watson wouldn't have missed Leggett on the wide open TD***
Oct 3, 2014, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to so... just so I'm clear ] |
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: so... just so I'm clear
Oct 3, 2014, 1:00 PM
[ in reply to so... just so I'm clear ] |
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So that would be 5 possessions in regulation 6 total so a 60% or 50% scoring ratio. 0% for Stoudt. So how many points do you think DW scores if he has almost one whole quarter or 3 drives to score. With a 50% success ratio 33% TD ratio surely he gets us at least a few points right?
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All-In [30593]
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you have no idea what you are talking about***
Oct 3, 2014, 1:41 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93582]
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You're totally missing the logic you're contesting.
Oct 3, 2014, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to absolutely no way to blame FSU loss on QB situation ] |
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Dabo is an azzclown and cheerleader therefor he can't put the right players in the game to win. The proof is that we would have won had Dabo not been our coach and Lame Kiffen or Mike Leach would have played DW without reservation.
It's STS's story and the dumpers are sticking with it!
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All-TigerNet [11024]
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All-In [28802]
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Pretty sure he told Lakip to miss two kicks, too***
Oct 3, 2014, 11:11 AM
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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York, I can blame it on the QB situation really easily...
Oct 3, 2014, 12:44 PM
[ in reply to absolutely no way to blame FSU loss on QB situation ] |
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Stoudt skipped it to Leggett.. Watson doesn't miss that throw. If Watson is in the game, that's 6, and nothing that happened the rest of the night as far as our errors matters.
So, yes it did...
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: York, I can blame it on the QB situation really easily...
Oct 3, 2014, 2:07 PM
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I certainly won't agree that any other of the errors mattered that night. Norton snapped the ball a zillion feet over Watson's head and we walked away with zero points. We fumbled the ball in the last two minutes on their 20 yard line. There's no doubt that missed pass was huge, but there were a comedy of errors made that night.
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CU Medallion [67617]
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Re: So you're saying that DW
Aug 3, 2023, 9:16 PM
[ in reply to So you're saying that DW ] |
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Possibly but who was going to play D in the fourth? Because we had no one willing to do it on the team apparently
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Stoudt played good on the first series, after that he has been extremely erratic....
Oct 3, 2014, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to DW is a player... but I have to disagree ] |
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just admit it, Stoudt is not a starter at this level of college football. He has a weak arm and very poor accuracy
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Oculus Spirit [96772]
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Stoudt's completion % is 61.8 which isn't horrible. Yes I
Oct 3, 2014, 12:01 PM
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realize a certain amount of those were screens.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Certain amount? More like a significant amount***
Oct 3, 2014, 12:04 PM
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: Certain amount? More like a significant amount***
Oct 3, 2014, 1:44 PM
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Yup. 71.4% of Stoudt's completions have come behind the line of scrimmage. Conversely, 39.3% of Watson's have come behind the line of scrimmage. Both are relatively high, but that's our offense. However their yardage from behind the line of scrimmage speaks volumes. Passes from behind the LOS accounted for 41.7% of Cole's yardage, while it only accounts for 13.8% of Watson's.
Passes going over 15 yards downfield:
Watson: 19/28 615 yards; 67.9% clip, 33.9% of completions, 36.4% of attempts, 67.3% of yards
Stoudt: 3/14 106 yards; 21.8% clip, 7.1% of completions, 20.6% of attempts, 21.8% of yards
Not meant to bash Cole, because if the time comes and we need him to step up, I feel like we can do it...but it's clear that Watson is the man for the job.
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All-Conference [427]
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: DW is a player... but I have to disagree
Oct 3, 2014, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to DW is a player... but I have to disagree ] |
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I would bet a hefty wager that the team would have looked drastically different if Watson had played QB for the whole UGA game, or even the second half.
The FSU game wasn't on QB play, but you could argue the Dawgs game was. We knew the line was suspect and so they blizted the crap out of us in the second half. Cole lacks escapability and he isn't a threat to throw the ball downfield. Those are two areas that Watson thrives in. As we've seen in recent weeks, the defense opens up when Watson is taking the snaps...with him in, the Dawgs wouldn't have been able to pin their ears back like they did in the second half because Watson would have either made them pay with his arm or legs.
It doesn't mean we definitely would have won (I think we would have)...but we certainly wouldn't have been held to 15 total yards and 1 first down in the second half. If you can't see that, you're in denial.
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: DW is a player... but I have to disagree
Oct 3, 2014, 3:17 PM
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To push this point even further, especially when talking about how much pressure UGA brought in the second half...TNet just posted an ESPN stat saying so far this year, Watson is completing 85% of passes against the blitz, averaging 18 yards per attempt.
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CU Medallion [51520]
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Oculus Spirit [93582]
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That's horsechit and not even 20/20 hindsight.
Oct 3, 2014, 11:01 AM
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It would have been different because it always is but no body can say we would have won. That's either ignorance or just plain dishonesty.
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CU Guru [1929]
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Re: That's horsechit and not even 20/20 hindsight.
Oct 3, 2014, 11:06 AM
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If ever the term" this May he Germans" applied to a never ending, recurrent them...it sure as H3LL is this one. Just my opinion.
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CU Medallion [58318]
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It's easy for us (or Athlon) to say that given how things
Oct 3, 2014, 11:04 AM
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have unfolded, but without the benefit of hindsight, I think it's wrong to call Dabo's decision to start the season with Stoudt at QB a "flop".
Clearly (now) Watson is the better QB from a physical standpoint, and every indication is that he is also ready and capable, from a mental/maturity/decision-making standpoint, to handle the job. There is no way to know if he would have performed quite as well had the job been his from the get-go, but as calm and confident as he was in game 3 in a huge game in a very hostile environment, I do think Dabo got it wrong if he thought Watson wasn't ready 3 weeks prior. Even if that is the case, however, I can't say that had I been in Dabo's shoes, I wouldn't have made the same mistake by playing a very competent, somewhat battle tested 5th-year senior over a true freshman in that situation.
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Oculus Spirit [93582]
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OK, I gave the point.
Oct 3, 2014, 11:12 AM
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It's likely that we don't have the big picture on why Cole started the first couple of games. If you'll recall, more than one of our coaches have said that DW has struggled with the leadership role.
Perhaps our coaches didn't want to send troop into battle in a foreign land without solid leadership. Considering that, the scores could have been worse.
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CU Medallion [58318]
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Absolutely agree. The reasons the coaches had for
Oct 3, 2014, 11:27 AM
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not starting Watson or playing him more may have been valid - we don't know, and we have no way of knowing if the outcome would have been any different. After seeing Watson play, however, and how he handled himself and how he didn't just hold it together and avoid making freshman mistakes, but actually excelled in the most difficult of environments, it's hard for me to believe that he wouldn't have been ready a couple of weeks earlier. So, it's very possible that Dabo/Chad got it wrong.
The bottom line is this: I tend to believe I would have been just as cautious, and having no idea that Watson or any true freshman QB would or could respond as spectacularly as he did, and would have gone with Stoudt as well. I fully understand why they may have gotten it wrong, and I don't blame them for it one bit. The upside is we have perhaps the best QB in Clemson history with almost 3 full years to go. I'm not going to waste any time second guessing Dabo and/or Chad over this, but instead I'm looking forward to the rest of Watson's days as a Clemson Tiger.
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110%er [7011]
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Re: It's easy for us (or Athlon) to say that given how things
Oct 3, 2014, 1:12 PM
[ in reply to It's easy for us (or Athlon) to say that given how things ] |
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if you don't believe this coaching staff knew who the best QB was game 1, snap 1...you crazy
their seats never get hot...lose 5 in a row to chickens, here...have a new golden parachute contract
the decision was made for other reasons and "could have" cost us a couple of games
you think DW wasn't killing it in practice and just magically turns into awesome when he steps on the field in Athens? and magically reappears playing well against FSU?
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110%er [7011]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 12726
Joined: 11/21/99
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Hall of Famer [22380]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Typical Tigerstripes post.***
Oct 3, 2014, 11:10 AM
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Already knew this after watching the UGA game....
Oct 3, 2014, 11:49 AM
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It took Athlon a month to realize what everybody else already knew
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Orange Blooded [4414]
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Joined: 10/26/05
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Watson should have been the starter in Athens.***
Oct 3, 2014, 12:54 PM
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110%er [7011]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 12726
Joined: 11/21/99
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Re: Watson should have been the starter in Athens.***
Oct 3, 2014, 1:19 PM
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bingo...
and he wasn't the starter because coaches hoped/thought they could win with the 2nd best QB
they started Cole because they wanted to...btm line
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