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Legend [19578]
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College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 9:56 AM
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"Here college athlete, sign our contract"
Contract
-You must play for us 3 years
-You can not hold a job
-you can not accept money from anyone else
-you can not sell your autograph or anything to do with your fame or likeness
-we can sell anything and everything related to you, your fame or likeness and make millions
-we (including our partners) can make billions in exchange for your accomplishments on the field
-you are not entitled to one penny of any of the billions we generate
-Oh, and if you don't like our contract, the NFL has an agreement with us that makes your other options completely unfeasible.
Sign here
________________________________________________
Message was edited by: CUAtTheFinishLine®
Changed the title for those who can't separate an exageration to make a point with being sensitive about everything
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Zealot [763]
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I'm thinking
Oct 10, 2014, 10:00 AM
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This might not go over so well.
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Legend [19578]
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Sometimes the truth never does
Oct 10, 2014, 10:01 AM
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Some fans are so fanatical about the things they love that they want them to remain the exact same, doing what's right be d@mned.
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Zealot [763]
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Your points are valid
Oct 10, 2014, 10:04 AM
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However, the parallels between getting a free education and being provided a fall back plan in case football doesn't work out and slavery may be put into question.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Your points are valid
Oct 10, 2014, 10:07 AM
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Of course slavery is an exaggeration of the point...no doubt
But tutition is no where even close to equal to the millions that these kids are making already fat rich CEO's. And they can't even sell an autograph for walking around money???
Anyone who says that's OK, then you're exactly what I described above, doing what's right be d@mned.
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Orange Blooded [3710]
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fat cat CEOs, LMAO
Oct 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
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nm
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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We'll it sounded good(at least to him). LOL?***
Oct 10, 2014, 9:39 PM
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Legend [15910]
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Almost 20 years later, how different could life have been
Oct 10, 2014, 10:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: Your points are valid ] |
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without $500/month in student loan payback?
People are so quick to dismiss the education and cost of living for 4-5 years in favor of looking at what the NCAA or individual schools are making, however, when I plan my next job or where I'm going to live I have to account for the student loan debt I agreed to take on in exchange for my degrees. $60K with interest.. call it $100K at full maturity.. my house was only $153K in Charleston.
That is one heck of a head start in life and not one that should be taken lightly.
The Power 5 have already agreed to start giving stipends and help out with travel expenses, etc.. that plus free food, board, and education should be considered more than an adequate in compensation.
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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I disagree with the rules, but Gurley broke them.
Oct 10, 2014, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to Sometimes the truth never does ] |
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I hope eventually the NCAA changes this crap. The school doesn't own his name nor his athletic ability. He should be able to sell his autograph. If a standalone signature he gets full revenue, if on UGA licensed merch, the school gets a share. Makes sense to me.
Heck, they could even put the proceeds into a trust, retirement fund, or something if they're concerned about paying the players during the blip of their lives that they're in college.
Message was edited by: cutigersJD®
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Why stop at college? High School? Pop Warner?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:00 AM
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Why stop at college? High School? Pop Warner?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:02 AM
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Because they're not the same. Not even close. That's a silly argument.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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Have you ever seen Texas high school football?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:22 AM
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CU Medallion [64536]
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What was the HS in TX that built a $60 million stadium....
Oct 10, 2014, 10:28 AM
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Allen high School I believe?
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Slave Traders!!! The inhumanity of it all!!!***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:34 AM
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Slave Traders!!! The inhumanity of it all!!!***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:43 AM
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It still isn't the same AT ALL. Show me where players likeness is used to make millions at the highschool level. I'll hang up and listen.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Either you pay school players or you don't. Make up your own
Oct 10, 2014, 3:16 PM
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reasons as you go along, but that is what it comes down to. Go down that road, and it will soon become bidding for the highest players, just like the NFL. Either we keep it amateur or it goes professional.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Legend [18663]
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Sad, but true !***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:01 AM
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All-TigerNet [12505]
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More like...
Oct 10, 2014, 10:01 AM
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Here's an education you wouldn't be able to get if you weren't good at football.
Oh, it's free.
Can't get a job coming out of school? A booster will hook you up.
No one forces these kids to play college ball.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: More like...
Oct 10, 2014, 10:03 AM
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Yeah because 100k is equal to millions. get real guy.
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All-TigerNet [12505]
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If it weren't for football, most of these guys would be
Oct 10, 2014, 10:10 AM
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working at a burger joint, or dealing drugs (if they are scar players). Again, no one forces these kids to do anything. If they wanted to they could go to college on their own, without a sports scholarship.
That's like saying doctors are all slaves because they have to do residency without getting paid. Those poor doctors. Those poor athletes.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: If it weren't for football, most of these guys would be
Oct 10, 2014, 10:14 AM
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Your argument doesn't make it right.
You're basically saying: "Hey you're stupid and will fail at life, come bring your talents over here and let me make millions off of you and in exchange I'll give you a degree that's worth 100k."
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All-TigerNet [12505]
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Fry cooks make mcdonalds millions
Oct 10, 2014, 10:16 AM
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They don't get a tenth of college players who never go pro. Again, who is forcing these kids to do this??
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Fry cooks make mcdonalds millions
Oct 10, 2014, 10:23 AM
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Why are you comparing what they get to working at McDonald's???
THEY DONT WORK AT MCDONALDS!!
Quit comparing that. That doesn't make the argument right.
What if YOUR boss said "You would only make $8 at mcdonalds if you didn't work here so we'll give you $10."
Would you be ok?
Of course not, because it's about what you're worth at that job, not mcdonalds!
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All-TigerNet [12505]
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Using your logic
Oct 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
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Everyone who doesn't own their own company is a slave. EVERYONE make someone a lot of money and doesn't make even a quarter of it.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Using your logic
Oct 10, 2014, 10:42 AM
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Umm, no that's not my logic. Where the hell did you get that from?
I'm not arguing that they should be paid millions.
I'm just saying it's wrong to make millions and not give them any liquid assets at all in exchange.
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All-In [29036]
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Therein lies the problem
Oct 10, 2014, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: If it weren't for football, most of these guys would be ] |
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If we look at the realistic situation, then paying these athletes may be a good idea. It may be unfeasible with all the other considerations, but it may be the right thing. That said, they can't be paid millions. It can't happen. The money just isn't there. So the next argument will be they aren't being paid enough.
So, what will, in effect, happen is these NCAA "leagues" and teams will fold. Schools would back out and some minor league may pop up to try and prepare kids for the NFL. In this league a majority of players will wash out (and a large percentage will never even get to that minor league because it will be nowhere as big as college football is now, and the profits will not be there, and players will be paid very little as a whole).
Again, it's a valid argument to think about how best to make it fair and equitable, and I think my biggest issue is the control of the individual's likeness, name, etc. But the idea that "millions" are there for any significant number of players is simply untrue.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Therein lies the problem
Oct 10, 2014, 10:24 AM
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Oh I'm not arguing for them being paid millions....
Just pointing out the wrong in what's going on....
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All-In [29036]
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But, then, do the math
Oct 10, 2014, 10:28 AM
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If each of the 80 players on roster are getting a value of 25K a year (which is low for all they get) then that right there is a roster "salary" of 2 Million.
That is not chump change, and I'm not sure there's much more there to be had in the system. Of course there is something, and I think that's a fair argument. But this notion that there are millions and millions of dollars out there that will amount to any truly significant income for individuals seems misguided to me.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: But, then, do the math
Oct 10, 2014, 10:40 AM
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See below.
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CU Guru [1440]
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Legend [19578]
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Re: If it weren't for football, most of these guys would be
Oct 10, 2014, 10:40 AM
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And football should be the only one.
And compared to the 30-50 mil each school makes a year, that's a bargain.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: If it weren't for football, most of these guys would be
Oct 10, 2014, 10:41 AM
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But I even think that 25000 per player is too much.
More like 12k, 1k a month. That's plenty of walking around money. That may even be too much.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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Legend [19578]
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Re: So ultimately, you're a proponent for the dismantling of all
Oct 10, 2014, 11:29 AM
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No, I am a proponent of a $1000/month stipend in addition to scholly. Am also a proponent of CFB ceasing the use of player's likeness and fame for profit in apparell or commodity sales without separate license agreement license.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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They already get unlimited food and whatever they want,
Oct 10, 2014, 11:32 AM
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what exactly is the stipend for?
So sell numberless jerseys? I don't get it, they aren't using a player's likeness for selling a jersey with a number on it.
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Legend [16058]
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Legend [18663]
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It's more like," Were done with you. Bye, bye !"***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:11 AM
[ in reply to More like... ] |
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All-TigerNet [14233]
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You must hate capitalism***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:21 PM
[ in reply to More like... ] |
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Commissioner [933]
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Re: You must hate capitalism***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:59 PM
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If you promote paying each college player their market value (capitalism), just keep it up. You are in essence promoting an idiocracy in our society.
What the OP fails to mention is that the operative term is student-athlete, not athlete-student, or in some cases just "athlete" (cough, UNC, etc.).
Furthermore you are promoting colleges and athletics to separate entirely because the athletes will lose their amateur status, thus making them professionals. Why go to college, just got to the nfl minor leagues? I'm sure the lower socio-economic kids (which make up the majority of revenue sports in college) will be able to get a job doing that. Go research minor league baseball players struggles, not everyone gets millions when the sign. Their are professional players living a lot worse than college football and basketball players.
Yes, the ncaa is a monopoly...they did not start out with that intention but have since become one. They are a necessary evil, however. Imagine trying to do their job though.
I'm just saying this big long thread goes on, but there are many more pressing/serious issues going on in the world. Kids like Gurley get more lifetime value in one game than most alums ever do, not to mention no tuition(student loans) relaxed academic standards, world class training, feasts fit for kings, bowl packages, big man on campus.
But go ahead and pay them market value, it'll just be a matter of time before academics are not even an afterthought...and then the money is used for gambling/women/drugs.
How to create an idiocracy 101.
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Orange Blooded [3710]
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Sad but stupid example
Oct 10, 2014, 10:01 AM
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nm
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110%er [6321]
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That's not sunshine you're pumpin'...
Oct 10, 2014, 10:03 AM
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Tnet, better get the waders out!
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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So someone holds a gun to their heads and makes them
Oct 10, 2014, 10:04 AM
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sign?
There's always McDonalds.
BTW I am in favor of some sort of stipend to help with everyday expenses.
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All-In [30593]
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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Some juan is using my likeness on the UL boreds
Oct 10, 2014, 10:19 AM
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Looks like I has a lawsuit to win 
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110%er [6321]
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But R U Oh kay?
Oct 10, 2014, 10:26 AM
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Has me wurreed...
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CU Medallion [73569]
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you stipend football players, then you stipend all athletes
Oct 10, 2014, 10:08 AM
[ in reply to So someone holds a gun to their heads and makes them ] |
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all athletes at school put in just as much time into training, if not more, than football players do. If you want to say, the school is making money off of them. They are only making money off the stars which is just a few people. They aint making money off the OL or punter or kicker or 3rd string WR, etc...
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Legend [19578]
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Re: you stipend football players, then you stipend all athletes
Oct 10, 2014, 10:09 AM
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You stipend al football players.
The rest shouldn't get a #### thing. They don't turn a profit.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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your company is making millions off of you
Oct 10, 2014, 10:22 AM
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where's your cut? it's the same for a punter. You and the punter are replaceable. There are only a few athletes on a team that aren't.
Why should a 4th string lineman get a stipend and not an all-american track guy? That 4th string lineman aint making the college jack. He's repaceable at the drop of a hat.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: your company is making millions off of you
Oct 10, 2014, 10:26 AM
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I would be paid what I'm worth.
I'm not saying players should be paid millions. But a stipend is definitely needed. Just pointing out the wrong in the system.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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Again, you ignored the point. All-star track athlete, who
Oct 10, 2014, 10:29 AM
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brings the University money vs. 4th string football player.
There are 85 scholarships, what's your stipend value?
And they already get unlimited food, personal trainers, personal tutoring, special attention, travel accomodations, etc...what more do they need again? Let's throw a free education on top of it.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Again, you ignored the point. All-star track athlete, who
Oct 10, 2014, 10:39 AM
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Name a track program that turns a profit and I'll address your point.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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name a 4th string WR that does?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:44 AM
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Legend [19578]
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Re: name a 4th string WR that does?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:46 AM
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That 4th string WR is part of the program that turns a profit.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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Only in the top echelon of football programs...***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:47 AM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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That 4th string and even 2nd string is replaceable at the
Oct 10, 2014, 10:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: name a 4th string WR that does?*** ] |
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drop of a hate on any team. Just like you are at your job.
Plus they are getting paid already. Realistically, that 4th string doesn't deserve jack.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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Legend [19578]
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Re: So someone holds a gun to their heads and makes them
Oct 10, 2014, 10:08 AM
[ in reply to So someone holds a gun to their heads and makes them ] |
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It's not about force. It's about a monopoly on an entire career and pretty much fraud. That's exactly what it is.
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Legend [16132]
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Of which, participation is voluntary, so there's that***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:47 AM
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Orange Blooded [2182]
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Re: Modern Day Slavery
Oct 10, 2014, 10:05 AM
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I hope someone whose family was truly a slave finds you and kicks your a** until you beg forgiveness.
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Scout Team [195]
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Re: Modern Day Slavery
Oct 10, 2014, 10:07 AM
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Got to be one of the dumbest post ever and to think an actual human brain came up with this thought
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Legend [19578]
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Lighten' up Francis
Oct 10, 2014, 10:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: Modern Day Slavery ] |
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It's an exaggeration to make a point.
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Starter [373]
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how offensive
Oct 10, 2014, 10:06 AM
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what an offensive title.
Eye grabber for sure but just stop and delete this now. what an offensive thing to say.
just stop with this thread and concept.
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Legend [17279]
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Additional compensation or benefits from the University ...
Oct 10, 2014, 10:07 AM
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needed. But allowing Boosters to provide money directly to players or recruits for whatever services will be the end of college football. It will lead to a tremendously uneven playing field.
And Clemson will be second tier in this type of system....
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Legend [15215]
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You do realize over half of our football team would not even
Oct 10, 2014, 10:08 AM
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be accepted to Lander... much less a school like Clemson.
Get real. It's only a few players on each team who are missing out, and those guys get paid after 3 years anyway.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: You do realize over half of our football team would not even
Oct 10, 2014, 10:13 AM
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So what? They're still being used in what amounts to a fraudulent scheme.
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All-In [29036]
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You keep using words that I don't think apply.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:14 AM
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First it was "slavery".
Now it's a "fraudulent scheme".
Best I can tell there is very little fraud here. Again it may be unfair, and it may need to be fixed, but where is the fraud? Everyone knows the rules when they sign up.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: You keep using words that I don't think apply.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:17 AM
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Fraud is using deceptive means for personal gain.
The NCAA was using the numbers of players to sell jersey's. No names on them. HOWEVER, had you typed Tajh Boyd in a search on ncaa website store, his clemson #10 came up.
They were skirting the rules. THAT IS FRAUDULAENT!
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Legend [19578]
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Re: You keep using words that I don't think apply.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:19 AM
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EA sports was using players numbers and their likeness without their names. That is a deceptive means of making the money using college players. It's fraudulent and the court agreed.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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It's not fraudulent, and it ruined a fun game for everyone.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:21 AM
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Most players are honored to have their likeness in the video game, it's the entitled few that bitched about it.
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All-In [29036]
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I don't think it's fraudulent either
Oct 10, 2014, 10:23 AM
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But I do think the personal likeness issue is an important one to consider, but it will eventually (in my estimation) be handled with licensing agreeements that tie directly to a post-college career stipend.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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In the litigious and entitled society, I don't see EA
Oct 10, 2014, 10:25 AM
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starting up the games again with player likeness. Which is a shame.
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Legend [19578]
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^^prime example of defending what you like
Oct 10, 2014, 10:27 AM
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doing what's right be d@mned....
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All-In [29036]
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I imagine it will happen again
Oct 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
[ in reply to In the litigious and entitled society, I don't see EA ] |
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I'm thinking years down the road when a stipend is put in place for athletes in "revenue" sports (which would, of course, be a decision fraught with controversy) then licensing a player's likeness will be part of the deal.
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All-In [29036]
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I actually agree with the EA situation
Oct 10, 2014, 10:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: You keep using words that I don't think apply. ] |
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I think using their likeness is a problem for a 3rd party. THough that will probably eventually be cleaned up with clearer licensing agreements in place between student athletes in exchange for some small stipend.
But athletes sign a scholarship agreement knowing the situation, which again may be unfair, but it is not fraudulent. The limitations are there for all to see before they sign.
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Varsity [238]
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110%er [6320]
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Re: Modern Day Slavery
Oct 10, 2014, 10:09 AM
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amateur
I agree that CFB is way too commercialized. I do not like the fact that news organizations (ESPN) have agreements with conferences. The sport is making a lot of people money, but college athletes still should not get paid. It opens a door that can never be closed. Do you pay swimmers? Golfers? Just hike up tuition so you can pay the volleyball team. No, a free education, which is worth 100k, is enough. I would love to played fb to get my tuition paid. That sounds like a deal too good to be true right there. Plus my meals are free, I get access to coaches, nutritionist, trainers, doctors, tutors all free of charge that are paving the way for me to be a millionaire in a couple of years. Thanks to those resources, Sammy is driving a Bugatti right now. What was your first car after college? Mine was a Nissan Sentra. Pretty sure Sammy would not agree that he was a slave!
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Varsity [216]
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Re: Modern Day Slavery
Oct 10, 2014, 10:11 AM
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I was just thinking the same thing. I think it's great they get scholarships, but at the same time I don't think it's right that the conferences/NCAA can make decisions on length of season and players have no say at all in it. The decisions they are making to increase # of games played and creating a playoff (increasing number of games) and talking about extending the playoff to more teams in the future are all based on money, but the players still get the same thing in return and don't have a say in it at all. If they want to limit the players where they can't even have a job to make money, then their decisions shouldn't be allowed to be based on money either, and should take more into account the humans they are exploiting as a result. When you hear the media talking about adding the playoff or adding more teams to the playoff, all you hear is $$ and what the fans want. You never hear anything about the effects a longer season has on the players.
With that being said, I think having more players speaking out against this would be a million times more effective than breaking rules and trying to get away with it.
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All-In [29036]
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I don't think slavery means what you think it means
Oct 10, 2014, 10:11 AM
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It may be a situation full of inequity.
It may be unfair.
Those are valid arguments worth having and discussing.
But slavery? not even remotely close.
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Legend [15745]
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No, it's true. I'm also angry at Tigernet's slavery of me.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:13 AM
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I mean, no Clemson site has nearly as much content as they do. It's not fair.
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Legend [19610]
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You may attempting sarcasm, but I, for one, think that there
Oct 10, 2014, 11:15 AM
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is no doubt that the content of my posts deserves compensation of some sort.
Can't believe I share my genius with all you loosers for free.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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free school, free food, free housing, free medical care
Oct 10, 2014, 10:12 AM
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and a degree. The whole, I can't even afford to eat is laugable. They all get training tables for free which is much better food than Joe Student gets. And I was a scholly athlete at Clemson. I do agree schools should not be able to sell anything with even their number on shirts much less likeness.
To say it's slavery is just laughable.
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Legend [19610]
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I'd appreciate my likeness being used in a video game.
Oct 10, 2014, 11:24 AM
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Thy're welcome to it, for free.
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Legend [15745]
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Any schools out there having trouble filling their rosters?****
Oct 10, 2014, 10:12 AM
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Any schools out there having trouble filling their rosters?****
Oct 10, 2014, 10:19 AM
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Nope, there's no other avenue. It's a monopoly.
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Legend [15745]
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That's false. It is possible to make the NFL without going
Oct 10, 2014, 10:23 AM
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to college. It has been done. And even if it had not been done, that's not college football's fault. Go start a developmental league.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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So are you a proponent of an NFL farm league then?
Oct 10, 2014, 10:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: Any schools out there having trouble filling their rosters?**** ] |
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They could not go to a college and pay for professional trainers for three years and hope to surprise people on a combine.
Or wait, they could get paid to have professional trainers for three years, get a free education, and have starlight to impress scouts during that time.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: So are you a proponent of an NFL farm league then?
Oct 10, 2014, 10:29 AM
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A farm league would ahve their own trainers. You think high school baseball players hire trainers? No they get drafted, get a salary and use the system's hired trainers..
Their either needs to be a farm system, or a stipend for players equal across the board.
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Legend [15745]
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Again, this is just not true.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:46 AM
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YES, I agree that a farm league should happen. Go ahead and start one. Convince some investors about what a viable option it is.
Think about it...you could probably get away with paying top young talent $50,000 grand easy. They don't have to go to class or maintain a GPA, they can sell their signature all day long and you could even have programs on effective communication, etc, to get them ready for the NFL. And since proponents of paying players insist that the players are the only reason people watch their college teams, those fans will FLOCK to the developmental league.
But what is NOT true is the "or a stipend for players..." part. College football is college football. Pro football is pro football. The college system owes no one anything. None of these kids were FORCED to become college student-athletes.
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Rock Defender [50]
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Re: Again, this is just not true.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:56 AM
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What your argument omits is the fact that these kids are superior to the normal student. They get a so called free scholarship but it is not free and many parties benefit from their talents. The rest of the student body must learn that valuable lesson. Their university is made better by the efforts of these athletes. It mostly comes down to jealousy. The kid that is not on scholarship must admit that their will always be superior beings and they deserve compensation.
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CU Medallion [64536]
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110%er [7913]
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let's see.....
Oct 10, 2014, 10:13 AM
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free education most students/parents would love to have.....platform to showcase your talent to the NFL.....so you have to follow a few rules...you're going to have to follow rules your entire life...get used to it.
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Head Coach [787]
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Re: let's see.....
Oct 10, 2014, 10:40 AM
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I agree, players are already benefiting from the FREE education. Their parents are in a much better position to give them some spending money without having to pay for tuition, room and board, books, etc.
On the other hand, my son goes to med school after working his tail off to get the GPA and didn't get a full ride and has that to pay off that in addition to med school expense.
Also, if they do wind up paying them, set the bar higher for admission AND conduct while they're there, because then they're employees!
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Legend [15745]
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Quality edit, but now I have to ask - where is the fraud?
Oct 10, 2014, 10:14 AM
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Are scholarship student athletes not aware of the conditions of their scholarships when they sign?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Quality edit, but now I have to ask - where is the fraud?
Oct 10, 2014, 11:36 AM
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Look in above posts.
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Legend [15745]
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I did. I'm not seeing it.***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:23 AM
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110%er [7657]
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Re: Quality edit, but now I have to ask - where is the fraud?
Oct 10, 2014, 10:28 AM
[ in reply to Re: Quality edit, but now I have to ask - where is the fraud? ] |
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Exploitation is a better word. I'm not sure how one would begin to measure the value of a star college athlete. They are given a full ride measuring the total value of their college degree in exchange for an opportunity to play football and build a resume on the national stage.
By the way - major colleges and universities bring in most of their money from government grants and donors for research.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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The fact is, most of them are less valuable than their
Oct 10, 2014, 10:58 AM
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scholarship.
And most universities try to not mix academic and athletic budgets.
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110%er [7657]
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Re: The fact is, most of them are less valuable than their
Oct 10, 2014, 11:36 AM
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I agree that most are less valuable than their scholarships. And yes - they don't mix academic and athletic budgets, but medical students have also tried to make a case for getting paid for the work they do for their schools. And many of them are not on scholarship. I'm just saying ... colleges and universities are businesses that provide education and opportunities in exchange for tuition and the work required to complete the program.
Students (athletes or not) should not get paid to attend.
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Legend [19610]
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Team Captain [496]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 10:19 AM
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Clearly something should change.
My opinion is to cut costs ... do not increase expenditures.
Cut coach salaries and all other silly/shame-inducing money deals.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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"and make millions"
Oct 10, 2014, 10:20 AM
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No, the millions is made because of the University, not because of the player.
Regardless, you keep saying "$100k", but they get so much more than that.
They get the value of the diploma, which is the $100k, plus unlimited food, free boarding in posh athletic dorms, free special tutoring, free professional trainers, and instant stardom. Don't act like that has no value.
And my favorite is whenever people compare this to slavery or call it fraud...what is your proposed solution? Majority of athletic departments run in the red, they cannot afford to pay players, and how to justify who should be paid? Grady Jarrett is probably the best player on our team, but he's not as popular as a QB/RB/WR, so he won't get paid as much. Which brings back to the point that the universities are making money on the university, not the player.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: "and make millions"
Oct 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
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That's completely false.
You take away the star atheletes of CFB and sponsors drop off the map, tv ratings plummet and apparell sales plummet. Don't be that naive.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Wrong.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:33 AM
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Take the top 3 players off of every single D1 team right now. Carry on with the season.
You really think ratings drop and apparel sales plummet?
You won't go buy that new Clemson hat that you get every year? Won't buy the jersey your son wants even though Grady Jarrett can't play?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Wrong.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:37 AM
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Absolutely they will drop.
Sure the die hard fans stick around. But you can't say that popularity of the sport doesn't drop or you're in denial.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Nope, popularity of the sport would not drop
Oct 10, 2014, 10:43 AM
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It may would even grow based on the media attention given to the top 3 players being lopped off.
I think you underestimate how strong college football's overall brand is.
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Legend [19578]
TigerPulse: 84%
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Joined: 7/25/07
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Re: Nope, popularity of the sport would not drop
Oct 10, 2014, 11:32 AM
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I think underestimate why CFB brand is high to begin with.
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All-In [29036]
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Joined: 8/28/00
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Chicken and the egg
Oct 10, 2014, 10:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: "and make millions" ] |
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You need both for the system to continue.
A "minor league" football system would look much like minor league baseball, which is not exactly a financial boon to the majority of people who enter it. The size of college football has little to do with the fact that it's 18-22 year old players playing an, overall, lower quality of football then it does the passionate fans who follow their school allegiances.
And the flipside is also true that if the quality of the game was diminished by moving all the stars then the excitement decreases as well. And with that the passionate fanbase lessens as does the money.
To treat this as either being the sole entity here is missing the point.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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All-TigerNet [14459]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 10:25 AM
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first off, i think it is a stupid rule. that being said, it is a rule. also, anyone that thinks athletes, stud athletes in particular, are not taken care of is either stupid or naive. these kids have everything paid for, get to travel all over the country, stay in the best hotels and also receive money from their scholarship. not to mention how it helps with the young ladies. trust me, most everyone on this board would trade places with these poor slaves in a skinny minute. where do i sign up.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Who on this board would not swap places with Watson? Who?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:26 AM
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Orange Blooded [4961]
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College athletes should be paid...
Oct 10, 2014, 10:28 AM
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Majority of these kids will never play in the pros. Their lives on campus are dedicated to sport training…even in their off season they still are captive to training , dieting, and exercising. Many are not allowed to be apart of the social scenes or groups on campus, so their college experience is limited. If people are rewarded for their labor, why not athletes who are cash cows for their universities. Most of these kids will never play in the pros and deserve financial compensation to help assist with everyday campus life …they earn it.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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A free education is not worth anything?***
Oct 10, 2014, 10:32 AM
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Orange Blooded [4961]
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Nope, most D1 athletes don't receive a quality education...
Oct 10, 2014, 10:50 AM
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Top athletes are always pushed by their academic advisers into the easiest major at the school. Just watch the player introductions on TV, most of them have the same major.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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And who's fault is that? The education is free.***
Oct 10, 2014, 3:18 PM
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Orange Blooded [4961]
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Not the student-athlete's fault, they are often forced...
Oct 10, 2014, 3:41 PM
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into majors that are easy and less valuable. If you have never been a student-athlete, then you cannot understand.
"Former football player Michael McAdoo said he was forced into majoring in African-American studies." Sara Ganim, CNN.com
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Forced? Forced? Even more slavery in college!!!***
Oct 10, 2014, 4:03 PM
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110%er [6321]
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Re: Nope, most D1 athletes don't receive a quality education...
Oct 10, 2014, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to Nope, most D1 athletes don't receive a quality education... ] |
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Most employees just want an employee to have a college degree. It proves to them that the employee took the time to educate themselves. It proves self-disipline (which is a biggie to an employer). It proves time management. It proves to the employer that you have self determination. It offers
more career choices and a greater number of job opportunities. It teaches ethics and values that are essential to having success. A college degree of any type will help to ensure a higher paying job.
Yes, it would be best to maybe have another major, but a college degree of any type is better than just a hs diploma
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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With the exception of a few disciplines such as engineering,
Oct 10, 2014, 3:42 PM
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architecture, lawyer, & medicine, pretty much.
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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Why did you leave out accounting?
Oct 10, 2014, 3:45 PM
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Doofus.
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Orange Blooded [4961]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
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-You must play for us 3 years
No actually they don't. They don't have to do anything.
-You can not hold a job
False. They can hold a job if they choose.
-you can not accept money from anyone else
False. They can accept money from family. Same program I was on in college.
-you can not sell your autograph or anything to do with your fame or likeness
Ok. This would in reality apply to how many players? 5%?
-we can sell anything and everything related to you, your fame or likeness and make millions
Correct. And if not for our (University) brand, you would have nothing to sell.
-we (including our partners) can make billions in exchange for your accomplishments on the field
Name one college/partner that makes billions in exchange for a player's accomplishment on the field. I'll wait patiently.
-you are not entitled to one penny of any of the billions we generate
Who again generates billions? Name that school.
-Oh, and if you don't like our contract, the NFL has an agreement with us that makes your other options completely unfeasible.
College is a privilege not a right. Playing football is a privilege not a right. Employment is a privilege not a right. Hmmm.
The arguments for how awful college athletes have it always make me LOL.
Please to be seeing the bullet list for the poor oppressed women's soccer players on scholly, the wrestlers out there, Lacrosse players, swimmers, and volleyball players.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 10:36 AM
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-You must play for us 3 years
-No actually they don't. They don't have to do anything.
To go to the NFL they do. The career is monopolized.
-You can not hold a job
-False. They can hold a job if they choose.
Not at most times, they cannot. The restrictions are very strict.
-you can not accept money from anyone else
-False. They can accept money from family. Same program I was on in college.
Most don't have money to give. But they can't accept from friends.
-you can not sell your autograph or anything to do with your fame or likeness
-Ok. This would in reality apply to how many players? 5%?
Doesn't matter how many. It's about what's right. Either they should be able to. Or the NCAA and others shouldn't be able to profit on their fame and items.
-we can sell anything and everything related to you, your fame or likeness and make millions
-Correct. And if not for our (University) brand, you would have nothing to sell.
This is not true. If there were a farm system, they would still have their talent. Their talent sells the millions not a brand.
-we (including our partners) can make billions in exchange for your accomplishments on the field
Umm the entire college football industry makes billions every year. Media, Sponsors, conferences, bowls, schools, apparell stores, all adds up to billions.
-you are not entitled to one penny of any of the billions we generate
See above
-Oh, and if you don't like our contract, the NFL has an agreement with us that makes your other options completely unfeasible.
-College is a privilege not a right. Playing football is a privilege not a right. Employment is a -privilege not a right. Hmmm.
And that's fine, so de-monopolize it and see what happens.
-The arguments for how awful college athletes have it always make me LOL.
Not about how awful it is. About what's right.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Ok let's do this then. Let's start paying players
Oct 10, 2014, 10:48 AM
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they get paid fair market value, just like you and I. End scholarships because that would be just like welfare under this arrangement.
Who on our current team would earn enough to amount to the same value of today's full scholarship? How many guys? How many would actually get less than a full scholly?
What's "right" may not look so "right" after all.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Ok let's do this then. Let's start paying players
Oct 10, 2014, 11:07 AM
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Ok, tell me what the minimum is that an NBA or MLB or NHL player can make.
I'll do it for you.
MLB - $500K PER YEAR / 1.5 mil over 3 / 2 mil over 4
NHL - $600L PER YEAR / 1.8 mil over 3 / 2.4 mil over 4
NBA - $510 PER YEAR / 1.53 mil over 3 / 2.0 mil over 4
Now I'll let you do the calculation of a scholly for 3 & 4 years of school. Then let's compare our numbers. I'll wait.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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MLB: 162 games, NHL: 82 games, NBA: 82 games...
Oct 10, 2014, 11:11 AM
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Are you really trying to use these numbers? Really?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: MLB: 162 games, NHL: 82 games, NBA: 82 games...
Oct 10, 2014, 11:16 AM
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You can't compare number of games. The sports are different with different demands.
Good grief....
I guess you think NFL players should make 91% less than MLB players? Seriously?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Ok let's do this then. Let's start paying players
Oct 10, 2014, 11:15 AM
[ in reply to Re: Ok let's do this then. Let's start paying players ] |
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With this said, considering most players aren't talented enough to make it on an NFL roster out of high school, $1000 a month stipend is a drop in the bucket compared to what these players generate for their schools each year. Consider $150k for scholly over 4 years and 12k per year stipend that's more than reasonable and fair considering the players have little means of generating a cash flow due to rules.
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All-In [29036]
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If we are arguing about what is "right" here
Oct 10, 2014, 11:16 AM
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Then why, in your argument, is it right to pay them a limited stipend of $1,000? Why is that right when you are still limiting all the things you mentioned in your initial post?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: If we are arguing about what is "right" here
Oct 10, 2014, 11:19 AM
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Because the sholly still has to be considered. with it included and a 12k/year stipend you're looking at 50-65k a year per player. That's MORE than fair market.
MLB minor players at least have the luxury of holding any job they want, selling their autograph, appearances, sponsors etc. These players don't.
And Minor elague baseball doesn't generate billions across the board like CFB
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All-In [29036]
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You aren't comparing apples to apples
Oct 10, 2014, 11:15 AM
[ in reply to Re: Ok let's do this then. Let's start paying players ] |
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Again, I'm not against a stipend, and that may be the right thing to do.
But the idea that you should compare what athletes at the elite status (and in their prime) of their sport are being paid to that of any significant number of 18-22 year old should be paid is missing the mark by a wide margin. Most minor league baseball players make 3,000 - 7,500 per season ( http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig ). Comparing the salaries of athletes who made it to the top of their sport is silly when it comes to what any significant number of college athletes could demand in a "free market" situation.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: You aren't comparing apples to apples
Oct 10, 2014, 11:17 AM
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See my post above yours. I do understand your point.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I'm not real sure I understand what this has to do with
Oct 10, 2014, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ok let's do this then. Let's start paying players ] |
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paying college players fair market value.
My point is this: Of say 85 current scholarship players, MAYBE 10 players would be paid more than the value of a 4 yr scholly. Maybe. Heck let's say 20 for arguement's sake. The rest get less.
How does that align with your definition of "right"?
Making up numbers here but follow me:
D Watson-Pay him $400k/yr
Grady J-Pay him $500k/yr
M Alexander-pay him $1mm/yr.
Maybe Mike Williams is worth $175k/yr
How much are you going to pay Zac Brooks? Ryan Carter? Seth Ryan? How about a redshirted kid that's not even playing? Pay him NOTHING. Can't sell his jersey, no value. He's not contributing to TV revenue right?
85 schollys:
22-25 starters counting special teams, maybe 60 guys even step on the field throughout the season.
How much would you pay the 25 redshirt, injured, not good enough guys? No scholly for them because we are paying players their real value here.
Look at the history of Clemson Football. How many players have come through this oppressive arrangement? Reconcile that with the fact that we've had 216 players even drafted since the inception of the NFL per wikipedia. Not 216 that have made money playing professional football, 216 that were drafted.
Your argument is really that colleges should spend MORE money to pay the very select few athletes in high profile sports that will go on to earn millions anyways. My argument is that's fine, but the money will have to come from what's being spent on the MOST that will never earn a dollar.
The "industry" will not pay them. ESPN cannot pay players. Neither can Nike or UA. Most football programs are LOSING money....so they cannot just hit the MORE button.
Do you think it's "right" that for example D Watson gets PAID for all the revenue he will generate but yet 25+ other guys will be paying their own money to play and support him?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: I'm not real sure I understand what this has to do with
Oct 10, 2014, 12:03 PM
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I'm not arguing to pay them fair market value. I'm arguing to pay them a stipend IF they aren't going to be allowed to generate revenue in any other way. That's what is wrong. I'm not saying it's wrong that they're not paid a salary. They get a scholarship and other perks.
You're missing the entire argument.
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Rock Defender [53]
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How much of a stipend do you want to give to
Oct 10, 2014, 12:10 PM
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Alex Spence? Would it the the same as what you would have given Sammy last year? If so, how is that "right"? If not, how do you go about determining the difference? Could it change mid-year if Alex Spence won the K job and started nailing 70 yarders in every game? Then what would you do with Lakip's stipend?
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Why are other options unfeasible?
Oct 10, 2014, 10:53 AM
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Arena football and Canadian football are slightly different games, but they offer livable salaries and after 3 years you can go pro. You can't tell me Sammy Watkins wouldn't have still had every single NFL team after him if he had spent the last 3 years making $80,000 a year and tearing up the CFL.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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That said, I have no problem with athletes being compensated
Oct 10, 2014, 10:56 AM
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to some degree. Scholarships should cover full cost of attendance and include stipends, and players should own their signature and likeness.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: That said, I have no problem with athletes being compensated
Oct 10, 2014, 11:01 AM
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I agree with you 100%
The monopoly is national. Players have no other choice but to either go through college or leave the country.
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Oculus Spirit [81683]
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Last I checked Arena Football was in the US***
Oct 10, 2014, 11:03 AM
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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Don't confuse him with facts***
Oct 10, 2014, 11:06 AM
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Don't confuse him with facts***
Oct 10, 2014, 11:24 AM
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See my facts below Bob. They kick his facts' @$$
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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The skill sets required for NFL and Arena are very similar.
Oct 10, 2014, 11:26 AM
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Are you saying Arena is not a viable option?
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Legend [19578]
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Re: The skill sets required for NFL and Arena are very similar.
Oct 10, 2014, 11:34 AM
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It's an option. I don't know about viable. Games are played totally different. Strategy is different, rules are different. etc. Ever been a few arena league games? No where near the same game IMO
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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Yep been to a couple and watched several more on TV.
Oct 10, 2014, 11:52 AM
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Didn't look like soccer players out there.
But I could be wrong.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Last I checked Arena Football was in the US***
Oct 10, 2014, 11:24 AM
[ in reply to Last I checked Arena Football was in the US*** ] |
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Arena football doesn't even play on the same length field or by the same rules. It's almost a totally different game.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: Last I checked Arena Football was in the US***
Oct 10, 2014, 11:32 AM
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Canadian football only has 3 downs & the endzone is 20 yards deep. They're both still football at their core though.
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Orange Blooded [2563]
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The GF and I had a pretty in-depth/heated convo about this..
Oct 10, 2014, 11:18 AM
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It's weird - it appears we've flip-flopped. Forever, I was the strict, by-the-books enforcer of the rules and she's the "forgiveness" and "well all make mistakes" person. With this instance, I do feel bad for Gurley, regardless of the beating he put on us a few weeks ago. I think it all relates to upbringing:
My gf, her father is a pretty well-off and respected doctor in the upstate. Her entire job was to get good grades through school - that was it. In exchange for that, she received anywhere from $300-$500 a week during college/law school as spending money. The tuition/housing/utilities/and her BMW all were covered either through scholarships or her family as well.
Me on the hand, my mother left my two sisters and I with my father when we were in middle school or so. Then in high school, my dad commit suicide and we essentially became homeless. For periods we lived with my grandparents, or would stay with my mom for a few days here and there. There were several years I was stuck having to support myself as well as my two younger sisters. I started working full time in high school and continued on working as I enrolled in Greenville Tech, then later transferring into The Citadel. It was only because of my girlfriend's parents that I even got the chance in Charleston. There were many years where I was absolutely dead broke. I'm talking having $5 to my name and trying to figure out if I put $3 of that in my gas tank, if I could find enough food with the remaining $2 to live off of until payday. The $400 that Gurley was paid (or how much, depending on the source) seems so little to me now, but then I thought back to my days when I was working 6-4:30, then going to school at night and had no money to my name. An extra $400 would have been like hitting the lottery to me - money that was all mine and didn't have to be immediately put toward a bill - I never knew what that was like.
I see it with those kids - they know that football is their ticket out, but in order to cash those big checks they need to keep their noses straight for 3 years minimum. And if you have no money coming in and no one at all to help you, even that "Full Ride" is tough I'm sure.
She and I kept going over it and she just couldn't understand it. "Everything is paid for - housing, food, education. What else does he need??" she kept saying. But there's more to life than that - gas, regular clothes, a somewhat reliable car - that full ride doesn't pay for everything. And that little stuff starts to add up. So I guess I feel bad for him. Now granted, if it comes out that he's bought a new Dodge Challenger or something like that, all bets are off. But if it really is a very small amount of money we're talking - and at the same time, UGA/Nike/NCAA are making millions off that #3 - then I truly believe in some forgiveness.
It's hard to see now, as we sit behind our keyboards and get paid nice figures to mess around on here. I'm a civil engineer now, my gf is an attorney and we make decent money and have a pretty good life now. But it's not hard for me to look back 15 years ago or so and remember exactly how it felt to be dead broke and have absolutely no one to get just a little cash from. And she just can't see it. Like Kanye West said, "Having money ain't everything, not having it is" - very truthful.
Hopefully this situation really starts a conversation about what can be done to help these kids so that this stuff stops happening. And even though JFF was also a big name/big deal, you have to remember he comes from a loaded family, so it's a completely different argument we're talking about.
The only winners in this one are the NCAA, the apparel makers and whichever rat paid him, then sold him out.
Sorry for the rant.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: The GF and I had a pretty in-depth/heated convo about this..
Oct 10, 2014, 11:30 AM
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Wow man you've had it rough, glad to see you seem to have made it through all of that hardship.
I don't blame Gurley for breaking the rules to do what he did, but he knew the risks when he did it, and even if he never plays another down of football for UGA he'll be a first round draft pick in the spring. I'm sure an agent would be happy to float him until then.
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Orange Blooded [2563]
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Re: The GF and I had a pretty in-depth/heated convo about this..
Oct 10, 2014, 11:46 AM
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Yea, it was crazy for several years between the ages of 15-21 or so. But you know what, I think I owe those years to who I am today. My sisters and I all went through h3ll, but it made us all determined to never live that life again; never stress over a few dollars - and heaven forbid, I won't ever see those days again. Today, like I said, I'm an engineer - my one sister is an attorney also and my other sister is a nurse anesthetist in California. We all seem to have turned out okay, and I truly believe it's because of those years and the 5hit we went through that made us determined to not go back to it. Also, my girlfriend's family - I'll be forever indebted to them as well. I paid for all my own schooling and all, but they took a chance on me and helped me move down and live rent free for a few months when we both came down here. A doctor with a daughter in law school - and she's dating this poor kid with nothing, and then they took a chance and did what they could to help out... I'll never forget what they've done and will forever owe them for the help they've given me (both of us).
But anyway, was just saying that I think it's hard to relate to what some of these kids go through, and what it's like to be truly broke unless you've been there. Even doing my best to describe it, it still doesn't come close. And if that's what Gurley is going through, then he has all my sympathy in the world and I can't judge him for that.
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Employees in tech jobs ROUTINELY have companies
Oct 10, 2014, 11:39 AM
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pay them salaries with the understanding that any programming they do, or games they create, will not result in any additional compensation for the creator. I'm just completely mystified by this argument that amateur athletes are being deprived because their jerseys get sold and they make no money off the sale. They're getting a four-year ride. They're getting free tutoring, free room, free board. They're getting a platform by which they get to demonstrate on national t.v. from week to week their talents, leading to some of them receiving massive professional compensation and endorsement deals.
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Legend [19578]
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Re: Employees in tech jobs ROUTINELY have companies
Oct 10, 2014, 11:50 AM
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You're comparing two totally different things.
Creating a video game and using someone's likeness/autograph etc are two totally different things. And those programers get paid well. CFB athletes get ZERO liquid assets in return.
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Oculus Spirit [96819]
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110%er [5156]
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The average college student graduates
Oct 10, 2014, 12:04 PM
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with tens of thousands of student loan debt.
I'd say these players are getting paid.
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Orange Blooded [2293]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 4:06 PM
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 10, 2014, 10:12 PM
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If the system is so unjust and the players are being taken such advantage of why would a fringe 1st round talent like Beasley ever go back to school when they were draft eligible. Millions, get real. Gurley got 400$ for his autographs. A lot of the money the schools make goes back into the facilities arms race. I hope the players aren't thinking about the injustice done to them while they are training in state of the art facilities they play and train in to get ready to be a professional like any other college student.
I think you should be able to market your likeness but I'm not so junvenile that I don't understand that system could and would be taken advantage of. You have to throw that baby out with the bath water.
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110%er [8095]
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College sports are for AMATEURS - nor professinals.
Oct 10, 2014, 10:45 PM
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get over it dude. Maybe it's time we require athletes to qualify based on academics. or at least require them to have a 10th grade education level.
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All-TigerNet [10875]
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Yup***
Oct 11, 2014, 12:40 AM
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110%er [6981]
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Re: College Football Fraud
Oct 11, 2014, 7:34 AM
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A free college degree can be worth as much as $200,000. Took me 10 years to pay off my degree(s). I would have jumped at the chance to play a sport on scholarship for free tuition, the fringe benefits, and the chicks. Instead I has to work my a$$ off and go to school. I don't feel sorry for these kids at all, nada.
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All-TigerNet [12505]
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Lol, your pulse is lower than mine now. Hope this was worth
Oct 11, 2014, 8:58 AM
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it.
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