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Clemson basketball - a hypothetical
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Clemson basketball - a hypothetical

emoji_events [9]
Apr 20, 2022, 1:49 PM

Seems apparent to me that our basketball program is in the rare position of having a 13th year coach do a complete rebuild. His staff is gutted and speculation is that despite promised support from the AD he is looking at young assistants who would have been accessible at any point in his tenure. 3 of 5 starters next year are almost certain to be first year players (at Clemson). The newest commitment, while a freshman, is still a product of new, lax transfer rules. Suppose next year is wildly successful. Suppose we finish in top 4 of the ACC and make another Sweet Sixteen run. Is this really something that would merit the inevitable raise and extension? Seems to me we’re watching a coach scrambling to actually do his job since he feels this might be his last gasp. But why hasn’t this urgency been here in the previous 12 years?

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 1:59 PM

I'm glad you said hypothetical because I don't understand your statement of "we're watching a coach scrambling to actually do his job. . ." What does that even me? Do you think that he didn't recruit before? He didn't care about his job prior to this upcoming season?

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Not a donor so can't edit


Apr 20, 2022, 2:00 PM

Meant to say what does that even mean?

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Re: Not a donor so can't edit

[2]
Apr 20, 2022, 2:10 PM

Well we’ve only had one inarguably “great” season under Brownell. The hypothetical is what if this next season is a the next great one? Does that really merit any kind of reward re: extentsions and raises. Because he has a pretty long history of not doing squat when the pressure isn’t on. So to your specific question no, I don’t think he does his job well. I think he’s figured out how to do just enough. If this mad scramble to put together a team and staff actually pays dividends should be be rewarded or scrutinized. Because there is nothing happening right now that couldn’t have happened at any point in time.

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Doing well is different than doing . . .

[2]
Apr 20, 2022, 2:20 PM

You said "actually do his job" not do his job well. That's an entirely different statement. Your opinion is that he doesn't do his job well. What you meant to say is that he doesn't win enough for you. His job entails more than wins and losses. Yes, what ultimately gets a coach fired will be wins and losses; however, until very recently, it appears the administration wasn't overly concerned with wins and losses so long as the rest of the program was solid, as in graduation rates, off-court incidents, etc. I do think some of the "excuses" are being removed, so it's going to come down to wins and losses, maybe as early as this upcoming season.

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The key to getting the best out of Brad seems to be


Apr 20, 2022, 8:23 PM

making every year a sort of hot seat year. After extensions and enhanced severance deal years we slide back to meh, and tend to wallow there until the heat cranks up again when a legitimate out comes about at a season's end. I had high expectations heading into the past two years for this very reason. I thought it would take more in the ACCT this season to rescue him again, but I suppose the first in program history 5-game ACC winning streak (on the heels of a 6-game losing streak) at season's end was just enough.

Having said that, I have high expectations for this next season for the same reasons. Hoping we stay the course if he does deliver and simply tack another year on the end of his deal and hold steady on the buyout.

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I see things much the same way.

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 9:49 PM

The answer is: No. This season will mirror his previous 12 or however many it is now (I’ve lost count). There will be no miraculous jump into the top 6 of the ACC. There will be no miraculous Sweet 16 run in the NCAA. Realistically, we will be lucky to make the NIT despite our INVESTMENT (both in the program AND the head coach’s salary) being in the top 40 in the country.

Neff is just painfully delaying the inevitable, which is: the program needs a change at the top.

Somebody wake me up when that happens.

I just can’t wrap my head around giving the guy an ultimatum when you already know what the result will be. It blows my mind.

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 2:17 PM

Hmmmmm. A complete rebuild when 3 of 5 starters are back at this point? We have the #27
Class coming in.

What exactly are you talking about?

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical


Apr 20, 2022, 2:27 PM

Only 2 of 5 of the leading starters by points scored and minutes played are returning.

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You're being disengenuous, Chase Hunter clearly outplayed


Apr 20, 2022, 2:42 PM

Nick Honor

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Re: You're being disengenuous, Chase Hunter clearly outplayed

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:27 PM

He averaged more minutes and more points. There is nothing disengenuous about that. It’s a fact. You used to at least pretend to try and be even handed but you’ve gone full blown Brownell Bro.

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Good Lord, you disagreed with me then too guy***


Apr 20, 2022, 5:23 PM



2022 white level member flag link

Re: Good Lord, you disagreed with me then too guy***

[2]
Apr 20, 2022, 6:34 PM

Actually I thought you were ClemMountaineer. You’ve always been a blowhard.

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The guy who brags about his little league coaching expertise


Apr 20, 2022, 10:11 PM

calls me a blowhard...ooooh that's rich

2022 white level member flag link

Re: The guy who brags about his little league coaching expertise


Apr 20, 2022, 10:39 PM

JFC - post a link to where I bragged about it. A question was asked and answered.

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sure thing coach***


Apr 20, 2022, 10:41 PM



2022 white level member flag link

Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 6:44 PM

viztiz said:

Only 2 of 5 of the leading starters by points scored and minutes played are returning.



Lmao. If chase hunter transferred you would complain and say that he was basically a starter because he took the starting shooting guard spot the last half of the acc schedule.

You look at everything in the most negative light. You are so predictable.

If we had no transfers, who do you think would be starting at the 2 guard spots next year? Either Dawes or honor, and chase hunter.

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I try my hardest to not put things in "negative light"

[4]
Apr 20, 2022, 6:58 PM

But come on man, will you ever address the fact we've made 3 NCAA tournaments in 12 years, with a grand total of TWO wins? (I don't count a play-in game as a tournament win because it's technically a play-in game to just advance into the field).

Will you ever address the fact we have the 37th highest basketball program investment in the country.

Will you ever address the fact Brad is the 38th highest paid coach in the country, yet we only finished in the top 40 two years out of twelve?

Why do you continue to insist people are being "negative" simply because we're not satisfied with the results versus the investment?

There are dozens of programs doing much more in the NCAA with lesser facilities, lower paid coaches, and less investment in the program. Why is that?

Answer: coaching.

Why do you continually try to ignore these facts? They are NOT simply putting things in a "negative light". They are hard facts.

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Re: I try my hardest to not put things in "negative light"


Apr 21, 2022, 7:14 AM


But come on man, will you ever address the fact we've made 3 NCAA tournaments in 12 years, with a grand total of TWO wins? (I don't count a play-in game as a tournament win because it's technically a play-in game to just advance into the field).

Will you ever address the fact we have the 37th highest basketball program investment in the country.

Will you ever address the fact Brad is the 38th highest paid coach in the country, yet we only finished in the top 40 two years out of twelve?

Why do you continue to insist people are being "negative" simply because we're not satisfied with the results versus the investment?

There are dozens of programs doing much more in the NCAA with lesser facilities, lower paid coaches, and less investment in the program. Why is that?

Answer: coaching.

Why do you continually try to ignore these facts? They are NOT simply putting things in a "negative light". They are hard facts.



I don't. You obviously ignore my posts and viewpoints because you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

And yes, when we get one of the highest rated recruits of all time (64 rate by espn), and most of the comment something negative, then people have a problem.

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What do you mean i don't know what I'm talking about?

[1]
Apr 21, 2022, 10:11 AM

I stated facts. Simple facts. If you don't like the facts feel free to address those in any way you want, but your childish attacks are unwarranted.

Name any of your viewpoints that you claim I've "ignored". Please stop just throwing stuff like this out there.

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical


Apr 20, 2022, 10:30 PM

When you ignore my actual (factually correct point) and put words in my mouth that is a strawman argument. You score no points.

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical


Apr 21, 2022, 9:35 AM

viztiz said:

When you ignore my actual (factually correct point) and put words in my mouth that is a strawman argument. You score no points.



You know what you are right. You definitely wouldn't have done that. You definitely don't make everything about Clemson basketball as negative as possible.

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical


Apr 21, 2022, 9:40 AM

At some point, via some cause, Brad Brownell will no longer be the coach of Clemson basketball. There, I said something positive.

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I say this in the hope it changes

[3]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:52 PM

but if one of our #27 class turns out to be a true impact player, they will be the first such freshman in Brad's 13 years to do so.

We still desperately need a PG and wing who can step in and start immediately

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Re: I say this in the hope it changes


Apr 20, 2022, 4:33 PM

Do you feel Llewellyn and Dennis fir the bill? I think we get both in the end and hope they do meet the challenge.

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They'd both likely start***


Apr 20, 2022, 5:51 PM



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Re: I say this in the hope it changes


Apr 21, 2022, 9:46 AM

I'd say Dawes was a key starter as a frosh, but again was up and down that year. He also started because no PG depth that season.

But good point, most Brownell Frosh are not key impact contributors. Simms was off the bench but those two might have been it.

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical

[3]
Apr 20, 2022, 2:31 PM

Last time vizjiz asked a question I tried to answer. Used small words, simple concepts, typed slow and keep everything on a 3rd grade level yet he could not understand the answer. So I doubt you will do any better this time…

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Did you frame your answer in a manner that a volunteer


Apr 20, 2022, 2:47 PM

little league coach could use the expertise that 95% of us normal fans just don't have? That might have been your problem last time...Not taking his unique frame of reference in mind when answering

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Viz is substantially more intelligent

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:16 PM

than most here, whether you agree with him or not.

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Re: Viz is substantially more intelligent

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:28 PM

awww… thanks BBO.

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As they say,

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:31 PM

the truth hurts.

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In addition to his volunteer coaching, that might bump him


Apr 20, 2022, 5:34 PM

up a few percentage points...Let's set the bar at 98%

2022 white level member flag link

Just STOP this neg B.S.

[3]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:33 PM

Last year, anybody in the know, did not expect a winning year after losing star Amir. And if not for the injuries to Hall and Tyson, Tigers probably would have won a few more. BB got this team to gut it out. His players(mostly 2 or 3stars) usually improve year by year then over the year. Hunter Tyson, Chase Hunter, Hemenway, Hall have all improved with Hunter and Hall on the verge of becoming stars, while Hall is already, and if healed, is a force to reckon with, as is Chase. Now his 4 star Bro is coming in and is only other 4 star besides Hall. A really good BB team can go along way is 2
or 3 stars who play well together with good tough leaders like Hall and
Tyson.

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Re: Just STOP this neg B.S.

[2]
Apr 20, 2022, 3:43 PM

Actually the bulk of Brownell supporters on this board insisted we improved from last year to this. JK incredulously insisted we would be better even with the loss of Simms. For 12 years there has been a perpetual lowering of the bar to justify Brownell’s continued employment. I’ve had it and until the mods bar the topic I’ll keep talking about it. He’s a poor coach and nothing that happens next year should change that perspective or tether Clemson to him for any more time. We also don’t need to get baited into a Tommy Bowden situation where we give him a raise and extension and then turn around and fire him at a greatly inflated expense.

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Re: Just STOP this neg B.S.

[3]
Apr 20, 2022, 4:21 PM

We also don’t need to get baited into a Tommy Bowden situation where we give him a raise and extension and then turn around and fire him at a greatly inflated expense.

Yet you know this is EXACTLY what is going to happen. You can feel it. Brad and the Brad Bois are all angling for it.
It is inevitable.
This is Clemson.

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Re: Just STOP this neg B.S.


Apr 20, 2022, 6:48 PM


We also don’t need to get baited into a Tommy Bowden situation where we give him a raise and extension and then turn around and fire him at a greatly inflated expense.

Yet you know this is EXACTLY what is going to happen. You can feel it. Brad and the Brad Bois are all angling for it.
It is inevitable.
This is Clemson.



For the 1000th time, Clemson football and basketball are completely different situations

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Re: Just STOP this neg B.S.


Apr 20, 2022, 6:48 PM


We also don’t need to get baited into a Tommy Bowden situation where we give him a raise and extension and then turn around and fire him at a greatly inflated expense.

Yet you know this is EXACTLY what is going to happen. You can feel it. Brad and the Brad Bois are all angling for it.
It is inevitable.
This is Clemson.



For the 1000th time, Clemson football and basketball are completely different situations

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Re: Just STOP this neg B.S.


Apr 20, 2022, 6:48 PM


We also don’t need to get baited into a Tommy Bowden situation where we give him a raise and extension and then turn around and fire him at a greatly inflated expense.

Yet you know this is EXACTLY what is going to happen. You can feel it. Brad and the Brad Bois are all angling for it.
It is inevitable.
This is Clemson.



For the 1000th time, Clemson football and basketball are completely different situations

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We had our best stretch of the season


Apr 20, 2022, 9:50 PM

without Hall and Tyson. So that argument is nullified

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Sorry, I have a lot of experience managing people in the workplace

[3]
Apr 20, 2022, 9:09 PM

One thing that always rings true : after a number of years, an average employee is always an average employee, a below average employee will always be a blow average employee and a great employee will always be a great employee. I think that people can shift their Ways in the first one or two years but after five or 10 years, they’re just not gonna change much. After 12 years, you’ve got what you got with Brad, next year is gonna be any different

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Re: Sorry, I have a lot of experience managing people in the workplace


Apr 20, 2022, 9:17 PM

Bingo cdixon11??

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Respectfully disagree.


Apr 20, 2022, 9:27 PM

People are people, not robots. Things happen and people go through things: divorce, death of a relative and other such trauma that can affect their performance. I’ve been in the game a long time as well and the one variant that really matters is good leadership. A good leader filters out the bad, retains the good and promote the best.

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Re: Respectfully disagree.

[1]
Apr 20, 2022, 10:36 PM

What your saying isn’t in conflict with his point. Good, effective leadership that can make the distinctions you’re describing is extremely rare. I would say it just accelerates what he is describing. And yes, great employees can go through personal trauma that radically affects their performance. But great employees are also rare and quickly earn goodwill.

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Re: Respectfully disagree.


Apr 20, 2022, 11:28 PM

I get the allusion to Brad, no question. I’m taking exception to the point as a generality. True though that great employees are a rarity.

All said, I believe a good leader, as you said, can distinguish the difference between temporary performance from quality of employee.

After I posted, I realized I took the context out of my response and was speaking more from experience, if that makes sense.

2022 purple level member flag link

There has always been an urgency


Apr 21, 2022, 7:45 AM

CBB has never stopped working. Nobody wants to win more than CBB. A Sweet 16 run next year means an extension and a nuclear meltdown in the Lunatic Fringe Clubhouse.

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Thanks for your brilliant insight, Cobb.


Apr 22, 2022, 4:16 PM

Let’s get jstone D329’s thoughts on this.
I’m sure he’s nearby you.

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Re: Clemson basketball - a hypothetical

[1]
Apr 21, 2022, 9:11 AM

I like BB. I really do. I think he is absolutely trying his best. However, he's had 12 years at the helm. I honestly don't see things getting progressively better. A huge part of his job is recruiting and while assistants are important in selling the program, it is up to BB to close the deal.

BB is a solid guy, but he does not possess a dynamic personality. He admits, "We need to do a better job recruiting." I'm at a loss to figure out how that's going to happen after 12 years.

Next year will hopefully be a better year, but all the defense of BB at this point, admittedly I have been there for the last 10 years, seems misplaced. I remember Gen. William Westmoreland giving briefings about success in Vietnam being just around the corner. He just needed more troops, more time, etc. I believed some of that too.

BB's reign will now be at least 13 years. Results not hopes matter.

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I would consider a "great" year from Brown-L next year in


Apr 22, 2022, 4:25 PM

the context of a golf handicap. Stats say that if you turn in all your scores, and have a LEGIT golf handicap, whatever it may be, once in every 20 rounds or so, you will shoot a round that is significantly better than your established handicap. It will not necessarily be a sign of any sustained improvement, but merely a statistical "fluke", if you will.

Butt, Clemson in the past has been far too willing to accept fluke years as "turning points", and reward them as such. This was the case with Brown-L already at one point, and with Tommy Bowden in football at one point. Their SUBSEQUENT history showed up the mistake in both cases, to our chagrin. We got stuck with huge buyouts where there should have been none.

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