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CU Guru [1708]
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Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 10:05 AM
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Short of the improbable win at UNC I couldn’t tell you anything substantial the man has accomplished
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Asst Coach [719]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 10:09 AM
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Was? Do you think it has ended?
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110%er [8518]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 10:11 AM
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No, since we have never won anything in basketball, the ceiling is low.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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That's the spirit !!!***
Feb 10, 2022, 10:19 AM
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Orange Blooded [4444]
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CU Medallion [64517]
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I am not a Brownell fan but in fairness...
Feb 10, 2022, 10:14 AM
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his 2017-18 team did make it to the Sweet 16 before losing by four to No. 1 seed Kansas.
At the end of the day, three NCAA Tournament appearances in twelve years (one of which was with another coaches players) is totally, completely and entirely unacceptable.
Clemson hasn't made it to the finals of the ACC Tournament since 2008. In the meantime, teams like Georgia Tech, Virginia, Notre Dame, Miami, and FSU have all won tournament championships.
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Orange Blooded [3276]
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Re: I am not a Brownell fan but in fairness...
Feb 10, 2022, 10:42 AM
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Not a Brownell apologist but how many times prior to 2008 did Clemson make the ACC tourney finals? Clemson basketball is (and has always been in my memory which dates back to Horace Grant) frustrating. To pretend that Brownell is more frustrating than Barnes or Purnell is employing revisionist history.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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Clemson has only made it to the Tournament finals twice
Feb 10, 2022, 10:47 AM
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in school history. Prior to 2008 was in 1964.
That said, my point is, if teams like Miami, Notre Dame, FSU, and Georgia Tech can do it, there is absolutely no reason why Clemson can't.
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Orange Blooded [2695]
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Re: Clemson has only made it to the Tournament finals twice
Feb 10, 2022, 12:02 PM
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in school history. Prior to 2008 was in 1964.
That said, my point is, if teams like Miami, Notre Dame, FSU, and Georgia Tech can do it, there is absolutely no reason why Clemson can't.
I'm not familiar with South Bend, but Miami, FSU, and Ga Tech are much more attractive based on location to a basketball player on average than Clemson.
Clemson is a rural school that is about 2-3 hours away from bigger cities. Elite Basketball recruits are naturally going to shy away from that because of that alone.
Doesn't mean I don't think we can have more success or we shouldn't strive for more because I'm sure it can be done but it's probably more difficult than just throwin more money at it or bringing in someone hoping they'll be the Dabo of college basketball.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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Texas Tech is a top 20 program and its located in Lubbock...
Feb 10, 2022, 12:56 PM
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so I don't buy the whole location argument.
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: Texas Tech is a top 20 program and its located in Lubbock...
Feb 10, 2022, 6:08 PM
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I buy the idea that it's part of the problem.
But I agree with you that some coaches have found ways to overcome it, and not just for a one- or two-year stint. No matter the disadvantages we face--and we do, from facing multiple HoF coaches every year, to officiating, to shoe contracts, to a semi rural campus location, to top recruits transferring out--games are won or lost by players making plays, and coaches putting them in place to be successful. Sustained competitiveness has always sounded like a reasonable goal to me, but we need more success to offset the disappointments.
And I agree with BB that no one is more disappointed than the players, so I'm not gonna rag on anybody while we still have games on the schedule.
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Orange Blooded [4444]
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Re: I am not a Brownell fan but in fairness...
Feb 10, 2022, 7:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: I am not a Brownell fan but in fairness... ] |
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Why keep bringing up what we did in the past? Brad was not hired to repeat the past but to improve on it. Did we hire Dabo to repeat T Bowden or did we hire him to do better?
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Legend [18780]
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Exactly!
Feb 10, 2022, 11:11 AM
[ in reply to I am not a Brownell fan but in fairness... ] |
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What you said at the end is really a good point.
All those other "non-traditional" basketball schools have all had their moments in the ACC tourney, not Clemson.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Hmmm, this kinda changes my mind. Before I was all like...
Feb 10, 2022, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to I am not a Brownell fan but in fairness... ] |
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"Brownell's record is better than what Clemson has traditionally done."
But now I see that a bunch of other programs have won a conference tourney.... and it's got me thinking....
So what about final 4 appearances in the last 12 years.
UVA 1
UNC 2
Syracuse 1
Duke 2
Clemson 0
Pitt 0
Notre Dame 0
NC State 0
Wake 0
Louisville 0 since being in the ACC but 2 before we ruined them
Virginia Tech 0
FSU 0
Georgia Tech 0
Miami 0
BC 0
hmmm well that's not impressive.
Ok my mind is back where it was.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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It was a total failure in that he failed to move the program
Feb 10, 2022, 10:19 AM
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forward in any signifigant, measureable way. Period. It was a success in that the program more or less maintained it's traditional status as a mid-pack non-factor most years without totally crashing.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: It was a total failure in that he failed to move the program
Feb 10, 2022, 10:46 AM
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forward in any signifigant, measureable way. Period. It was a success in that the program more or less maintained it's traditional status as a mid-pack non-factor most years without totally crashing.
a positive winning percentage in the ACC and OOC, Sweet 16 appearance, Beat the Holes for the 1st time is almost 60 tries at their place plus personally raised money to improve facilities.
The weird thing is we are getting more than we pay for so what else do you want? If you state you want a top 25 team we can put a price tag on it then you would need to figure out which program we should sacrifice in terms of cutting funding.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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If you don't think Clemson basketball can be better than
Feb 10, 2022, 11:07 AM
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consistently mid-pack (because that's what we are, and if you think otherwise, you are in a fantasy world), then that's absoluetly pathetic, and Clemson should just shut down the program. Seriously.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Let me add this about Brownell ...
Feb 10, 2022, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: It was a total failure in that he failed to move the program ] |
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I am trying to give an honest assessment here, and I think it's important not to slam a good man in the process.
Brownell has been a good coach in many regards. As some have pointed out, he has had some success and some noteable achievemnts here. He has run a squeaky clean progam and does everything the right way. That goes a long way in my book, and all Clemson fans should respect and appreciate that; I certainly do. I know he gave it his all here. He has represented Clemson well. I sincerely thank him for all of that. In my mind, that is not reason to keep him another year. Clemson basketball can be better, and the program desperately needs new life, and the fans need hope. It couldn't be more obvious. Good men who have had some success move on or get canned every day - it's not the end of the world and sometimes it's the best for all concerned. The resistance to change at this point for Clemson basketball is downright baffling to me.
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: Let me add this about Brownell ...
Feb 10, 2022, 6:39 PM
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I think Clemson fans overlook our checkered history of major NCAA violations during the primary Era of Enforcement.
At the time they occurred, we fans made excuses because Tobacco Road had stacked the deck against us. Recently we have seen other programs get away with seemingly flagrant violations, and it even seems that the NCAA has taken to wearing dentures to hide their inability to punish rogue programs. But we all know that as soon as we bring in a coach in a major sport that cuts corners, the NCAA will find a Fountain of Youth and a renewed purpose for existence just so they can punish Clemson University.
The BoT and University administration cannot take this lightly.
When Steve Smith was heard on tape to the FBI, telling the informant that his coach (BB) was so strait-laced that he had to hide his extra visits to the recruit who everyone looked at as the Savior of the Program (Zion) that testimony of integrity guaranteed Brownell's job--maybe forever. Sure, they fake-slapped his wrist for "not controlling his assistants" better, but make no mistake--Brad Brownell would be allowed to chaperone a whole busload of coeds on Spring Break, and he would probably treat them all like his daughters. His integrity is squeaky-clean in a not very clean world. His teams would literally have to crap the beds in the Greensboro hotels before he would lose administrative support.
I don't say this because I have inside knowledge at Clemson. It's just that I have done HR work in very competitive industries, and people with gold stars in Integrity are very rare. They may cost you a little bit of potential success, but when you terminate them you are costing yourself a huge amount in terms of good faith with your peers. You must weigh that carefully before you write that buyout check.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 10:21 AM
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He sucks, but the Sweet 16 was solid.
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Orange Blooded [3276]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 11:03 AM
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and he only lost by 4 to a Kansas team that we all can agree was one of the best money could buy that season.
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All-In [32580]
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Yes - with MAYBE one or 2 semi-bright spots . . . .
Feb 10, 2022, 10:26 AM
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a complete failure.
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110%er [7157]
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Clemson basketball coaching is kind of a weird one...
Feb 10, 2022, 10:28 AM
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If we get a coach that wins he's only here for a handful of years.. if we get one that is atrocious he's here for a handful of years. Brownell is somewhere in the middle which is why he's been here the longest.
He's not a bad hire but he's also not really going to excite the fanbase with above average ACC teams that make noise nationally. He does well with player relations, high graduation rates for his players, and puts a moderately competitive product on the court every year. He's just not going to be able to make the tourney much b/c of the conference and lack of elite level recruiting.
Its like SCAR trying to recruit above average players for football in the SEC. If a kid is going to the SEC he's going to want to play for Bama,UGA,LSU, or UF..SCAR is way down the list. Its kinda the same for Clemson in basketball. If an above average kid wants to play in the ACC they're going to look for the Duke's and UNC's and the Louisville's of the world first and if they can't get in there they then look to the others. WE've def lost our share of interested elite guys to those teams over the years.
So is the "tired of Brownell" crowd ready to play the roller coaster again? I can't decide either way. There is a great chance that we fall from blah to suk, real fast by changing coaches. But maybe its worth the risk to get out of the boring phase.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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This is largely due to the administration's approach...
Feb 10, 2022, 10:38 AM
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to hiring coaches.
Until that approach changes, it's just going to be more of the same.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Letterman [256]
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Re: The answer is easy.
Feb 10, 2022, 11:31 AM
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But it's clear the administration doesn't want to do that. Do you want money taken away from football? Money has to come from somewhere. Are you willing to increase your IPTAY donation or make other donations to assist?
The administration is making a decision that Clemson is not embarrassing at basketball. The program is clean. The coach is scandal-free in a shady sport. There's not a large outlay of cash in comparison to other programs.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Re: The answer is easy.
Feb 10, 2022, 11:52 AM
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I don't know the inner workings of our finances, so I can't say where the money would come from or what we would take money away from and so forth. I just know other universities of similar size and similar athletic programs field more consistently competitive basketball programs, so the excuse that we just can't afford it sounds like a load of bullshot. I agree that the admin has decided, up to this point, that basketball is not important. I'm hoping that can change.
As for the old excuse "the only way to win at basketball is to cheat and be dirty", well if that's true, why not have some cottam backbone, stand up and say so, instead of grinning and humbly getting our teeth kicked in decade after decade by liars and cheats while we play by the rules while pretending it's all on the level?
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Letterman [256]
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Re: The answer is easy.
Feb 10, 2022, 11:56 AM
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The problem is that the answer isn't easy. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
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Legend [16213]
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Re: The answer is easy.
Feb 10, 2022, 12:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: The answer is easy. ] |
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I don't see Brad's extended tenure and ho-hum results as being indicative of the admin's commitment to success in basketball, or lack thereof. Brad has been on a legitimate hot seat a number of times during this stretch. On each occasion though we would seemingly turn the corner during that make or break year, and we would then recommit, and kind of be stuck in the game for a while longer as a result. It's like a gambler who is already deep enough in where, with a little success streak just prior to pulling the plug, pours more in hoping to finally break through and recoup, only to see it turn south again.
Last year's renegotiation was great. It provided for a 4-year contract, critical for recruiting, but pared down the buyout some, lessening the severity should the expected progress not develop and a change in leadership be required. This is the first season, really, through this whole deal, where Brad's team hasn't shown progress in this kind of 'option' year. At least to date.
IMO it's been more about timing than lack of commitment.
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Orange Blooded [2695]
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Spot on here as a voice of reason
Feb 10, 2022, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to Clemson basketball coaching is kind of a weird one... ] |
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If we get a coach that wins he's only here for a handful of years.. if we get one that is atrocious he's here for a handful of years. Brownell is somewhere in the middle which is why he's been here the longest.
He's not a bad hire but he's also not really going to excite the fanbase with above average ACC teams that make noise nationally. He does well with player relations, high graduation rates for his players, and puts a moderately competitive product on the court every year. He's just not going to be able to make the tourney much b/c of the conference and lack of elite level recruiting.
Its like SCAR trying to recruit above average players for football in the SEC. If a kid is going to the SEC he's going to want to play for Bama,UGA,LSU, or UF..SCAR is way down the list. Its kinda the same for Clemson in basketball. If an above average kid wants to play in the ACC they're going to look for the Duke's and UNC's and the Louisville's of the world first and if they can't get in there they then look to the others. WE've def lost our share of interested elite guys to those teams over the years.
So is the "tired of Brownell" crowd ready to play the roller coaster again? I can't decide either way. There is a great chance that we fall from blah to suk, real fast by changing coaches. But maybe its worth the risk to get out of the boring phase.
+1 to this a day
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Hall of Famer [21205]
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Failure... no.
Feb 10, 2022, 10:39 AM
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Moved forward... no.
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All-In [37569]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 10:42 AM
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Certainly not a success.
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110%er [8437]
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We’ve made 4 sweet 16s in the history of our program
Feb 10, 2022, 10:50 AM
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Brownell made one of em. So, while I wouldn’t classify his tenure as a success, he does have at least some accomplishments.
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Orange Blooded [3276]
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Re: We’ve made 4 sweet 16s in the history of our program
Feb 10, 2022, 11:02 AM
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You are so correct in your assessment. Brownell's tenure is marked with myriad disappointments, but so was Barnes's tenure, Purnell's tenure, and even Ellis's tenure. Shyatt's tenure was a failure. Brownell's has just been boring with a blip or 2 that were positive and a few more blips that were frustratingly negative.
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Orange Blooded [2313]
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Re: We’ve made 4 sweet 16s in the history of our program
Feb 10, 2022, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to We’ve made 4 sweet 16s in the history of our program ] |
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First off, clearly define, point by point, what you consider the level that basketball must reach to be successful. Then the discussion will be about reasonable facts and not some utopia feeling you may want from basketball. That you will never achieve.
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CU Guru [1321]
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Re: We’ve made 4 sweet 16s in the history of our program
Feb 10, 2022, 1:03 PM
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Comparing his tenure to the rest of Clemson basketball, he's been pretty much on par. He's had flashes but nothing sustained, just like other coaches. However, his tenure can be described as uninspired and boring. His teams just aren't that fun to watch.
Now comparing him to other programs in the league or in the country, he's been a failure. I think that was the point that was trying to be made. When you look at the other non-basketball schools (anybody not named Duke or UNC), they've all made some noise in the league during the time that Brownell has been here.
My biggest issue with Brownell, is just the utter collapse that his teams seem to have during a game. No lead is large enough to be safe.
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110%er [7157]
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The reason he's never been fired is b/c he's just good
Feb 10, 2022, 4:56 PM
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enough to keep his head above water and just bad enough to where other teams don't consider him for their job vacancies.
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110%er [6153]
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EVERY clemson hoops coach has been a FAILURE. That’s just
Feb 10, 2022, 11:37 AM
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... a sad fact if you want to be honest.
Not one coach has done anything, but apply the proverbial band-aid to slow the bleeding.
We all want a consistent winner in basketball. I don’t know a single fan who doesn’t.
But, the Clemson Athletics Department has gone through five (now six) different leaders since the ACC was formed and we were a charter member.
Brad Brownell is the 10th coach during that time.
Every AD thus far has failed to find a coach that could win consistently at Clemson.
Every coach we’ve tried has thus far failed in the real mission ... make Clemson a consistently strong program.
It’s hard to argue that Clemson *cant* be a strong hoops program. There is no logical reason that they *can’t*, but the reason(s) why they haven’t are difficult to pin down because there are a multitude.
Suffice to say that like a decrepit old building left neglected, untended, and uncared for over many years, Clemson basketball has long been at (or past) the point of rehabilitation.
It will take an AD of enormous vision and a willingness to invest tons of money to even begin the process.
It will take a large devoted contingent of fans who are just as excited about a Wednesday evening game versus GaTech as they are for a Sunday prime time match-up with Duke
Do we want it badly enough? Do we have the leadership in place to make it happen? Will the fans demonstrate they are more than band wagon followers?
To be continued .................
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110%er [6075]
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Yes.***
Feb 10, 2022, 11:58 AM
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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Beating that crappy UNC team
Feb 10, 2022, 11:59 AM
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Really wasn’t even an accomplishment
If we weren’t 0 fer it would have zero merit.
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 12:35 PM
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He made the Sweet 16 one year when DeVoe actually played well. And everybody and their brother won at Chapel Hill that season.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 12:41 PM
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When you crack on Brownell, you may also be cracking on Clemson Basketball. Because there was not only the win vs UNC in Chapel Hill, he is Clemson's winningest basketball coach and longest tenured coach at Clemson.
Plus as Clemson Athletics states:
"In 11 seasons in Clemson, he has compiled a 201-150 record, which places him first all-time in Clemson coaching history with 201 victories. He has taken the Tigers to the 2021 NCAA Tournament, 2018 Sweet 16, 2011 NCAA Tournament and three NIT appearances. He is No. 1 in Clemson coaching history in terms of winning percentage against ACC competition and his 100 wins over ACC teams are the most-ever in program history."
So he has that going for him over:
Oliver "I really did nothing and then ran away from the program in the middle of the night" Purnell
Larry "Oh you really should just say my name like you really want to" Shyatt
Rick "I would've kicked Dean Smith's #### and could've done something special in Clemson but my family (wife) hated it here, so I stepped out to a better job" Barnes
Cliff "I had some great ones, saw some trouble, but did not see Clemson as challenging enough, so I literally quit and walked away" Ellis
Brownell and Ellis make up 55% of all the NCAA Tournament wins for Clemson and coached in half of all of Clemson's total NCAA Tournament games.
SO LET US NOT FORGET:
"Clemson basketball has made the NCAA Tournament just 13 times over the 81 years of the tournament's history. In that span, the Tigers have made the Elite 8 once (their first year in the tournament in 1980) and they've made the Sweet 16 four times (1980, 1990, 1997, 2018). Clemson has been eliminated in the first round (Round of 64) six times." Mar 17, 2021
And then ask, who you gonna go get to coach basketball at Clemson?
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All-TigerNet [11424]
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 4:56 PM
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Auburn's program before Bruce Pearl was worse than Clemson as far as total NCAATs. Now he cheats, but just saying there are programs worse. Go look at Virginia Tech before Buzz Williams got there. They don't have as many NCAATs either.
I really think those are being a little harsh on what OP did here. Again he left the wrong way and for the wrong reasons, but look how he got Clemson out of the dumpster fire that was Larry Shyatt. If you asked Clemson fans before Shyatt the next coach was going to do this, they would say "I'll take it."
Rick Barnes did that and more by advancing in the Tournament by going to sweet sixteen.
I give credit for Brad for doing well on a few occasions, but there was no consistency. And see lackluster players in the last couple of seasons not playing solid defense which was Brad's trademark for his team.
We need a guy more like Barnes and OP and go from there to give them what they want to want to stay at Clemson.
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110%er [7191]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 20374
Joined: 8/18/06
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 4:04 PM
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No, because his era is not over. You never know, he maybe could get to the NIT finals this year.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3527
Joined: 8/19/03
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 4:20 PM
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Treading water is not a success.
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Legend [17520]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14118
Joined: 10/24/10
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 5:02 PM
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No. It was just a capitulation -- an extended act of settling.
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Walk-On [146]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 212
Joined: 12/13/99
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Re: Can we agree Brownell era was a failure?
Feb 10, 2022, 6:14 PM
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Yes
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