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Replies: 59
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Orange Blooded [4356]
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Entitlements and the erosion of marriage and the institution
Mar 23, 2021, 10:33 AM
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Of family
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Entitlements and the erosion of marriage and the institution
Mar 23, 2021, 12:08 PM
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Bull
Are these things NOT occurring in the other countries as well ??
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Entitlements and the erosion of marriage and the institution
Mar 23, 2021, 2:36 PM
[ in reply to Entitlements and the erosion of marriage and the institution ] |
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You told him moral decay is the big cause and you are correct. Families of all races have a problem but the black family is in full blown crisis. They don’t want to hear it but it’s true.
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All-In [42154]
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Nah.
Mar 23, 2021, 4:56 PM
[ in reply to Entitlements and the erosion of marriage and the institution ] |
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We've been a very violent nation back when all those were still strong, and we can make arguments they've never been that strong.
They have nothing to do with violence any more than the guns do. In fact, we're less violent than we have been in the past.
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Lot o points [155906]
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Which nation has the most crossbows?
Mar 23, 2021, 10:35 AM
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I bet they have the most crossbow deaths.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Which nation has the most crossbows?
Mar 23, 2021, 12:09 PM
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So O,
are you saying that if we reduced the number of guns, we could reduce the number of gun-related deaths ??
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Lot o points [155906]
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Sure, and if we reduced the number of cars we
Mar 23, 2021, 2:55 PM
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could reduce the number of car deaths. And if we reduced the number of houses we could reduce the number of home fires. That's just basic math that, absent outside variables like practicality, common sense, and constitutionality, works every time.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Sure, and if we reduced the number of cars we
Mar 23, 2021, 3:17 PM
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O
I think we could reduce the numbers of guns without dramatically degrading the quality of our lives.
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Lot o points [155906]
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Seems like quite an arbitrary qualifier.
Mar 23, 2021, 3:34 PM
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You might think that and everyone just might agree with you about their quality of life, or you might just find yourself telling a lot of people who disagree with you what's best for them.
Most recent info I can find suggests about 16k gun deaths per year that weren't a result of suicide.
Tobacco use accounts for close to 500k deaths per year. I think we could reduce or eliminate tobacco without dramatically degrading the quality of our lives, but I don't consider it my decision to make.
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All-TigerNet [10887]
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WGAF what the cause of violent death is?
Mar 23, 2021, 10:40 AM
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"Gun deaths" always makes me laugh. I guess getting stabbed is so much better.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: WGAF what the cause of violent death is?
Mar 23, 2021, 12:11 PM
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Tom,
If you are coming to kill me, I would rather you come with a knife than a gun.
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All-In [42154]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 10:47 AM
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I think it's more complicated than simply looking for a solution when it comes to guns. I think it boils down to many, many factors in our American society that have been ingrained over two centuries.
We have a lot of guns. We always have. We were a nation born in violence, and, in a very over-simplified explanation, we have somewhat been taught that violence can solve problems.
Many will look to guns as the problem, but you can't blame things for the actions of people. If we were a nation of knives, we'd be one of the leaders of the world in stabbings.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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All-In [42154]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 2:12 PM
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1. Not at all. I think we have just been a society that has been quick to reach for the gun to solve problems, whether justified or not. We embraced gun ownership as a core right, something that had never been done in history. Being skilled with a fire arm has helped define "men" in America for two centuries. It shows a man who can hunt, who can protect his family and his property, who can strike down tyranny, and who can slay evil if necessary.
If we want to look at the criminal element, that same macho feeling works its way into gangs, working the streets, etc.
I'm a gun owner and I've been around them much of my life. I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that holding and shooting a gun feels bad ###.
My argument is that we are a nation where gun culture has been a part of our lives, our mentality, and our way of life since our inception. We can't just expect that to go away, even if we banned guns.
2. Sure, it's easier. But bad people are going to do bad things, gun or not. People who want to kill will kill. Take away guns, and those who can't get them illegally will still find a way to harm others. The problem isn't the weapon.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 2:16 PM
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Totally agree Catahoula! The chief problem is who we are as a society.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 3:22 PM
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ron
How do we go about changing that ??
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 3:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Asking for serious suggestions ] |
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Cat
We have done away with a number of things that used to be ingrained in our culture (slavery comes to mind) to our betterment. Perhaps the overabundance of guns and violence is one we might consider curtailing.
By your logic, shouldn't we do away with all laws, because people who want to do what is forbidden will go ahead anyway ?
I know that people break the speed limit, but how many more would drive too fast (& how many more people would be killed) if we had NO speedlimit ?
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All-In [42154]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 3:38 PM
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We have done away with a number of things that used to be ingrained in our culture (slavery comes to mind) to our betterment. Perhaps the overabundance of guns and violence is one we might consider curtailing.
Well, slavery wasn't set into our Bill of Rights and didn't really help us break away from the British (unless you want to count GA and SC appeasement in the Declaration). And many, many colonists already opposed the idea of slavery before our foundation. Over time, sounder minds prevailed, although I'm pretty sure we still have a few more NC_Tiger's and Keowee's who would love them some slavery.
Slavery was also a direct violation of human rights. Gun ownership isn't.
How would you propose we curb that overabundance of guns?
By your logic, shouldn't we do away with all laws, because people who want to do what is forbidden will go ahead anyway ?
I don't think that's by my logic at all. Most gun owners are responsible and never harm anyone. So we can look at a variety of products and items that are legal to own but can be potentially misused (even lethally).
I know that people break the speed limit, but how many more would drive too fast (& how many more people would be killed) if we had NO speedlimit ?
I'm not sure this analogy works. We have plenty rules and regulations on guns just like with speed limits.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 10:50 AM
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Because we have a lot of guns.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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II fully agree with The Bull, BUT I think we could
Mar 23, 2021, 11:02 AM
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do a MUCH better job with background checks at the time of purchase. It is very lacking in resources and people get approved that you know shouldn't have a gun. The process should take a little more time. I know that many do not like this, but I believe it should be a better process and should be federally mandated instead of State. (but what about states rights? I know, I am going against myself here)
Here in Detroit, there is starting to become a huge problem with stabbings in the Arab population, something we do not see a lot here in the States, but happens a lot back in the Middle East. Just last Saturday there was 8 people stabbed at a Hookah lounge. Really scary as I think I would rather be shot if being honest.
I dont have the answer, but I used to sell guns and the process needs to be revamped and funded better.
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Heisman Winner [137917]
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The background check process lacks resources by design.
Mar 23, 2021, 11:04 AM
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It's not accidental, or a funding issue.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Yeah, I mean when we just "trust" someone to tell
Mar 23, 2021, 11:11 AM
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us on the honor system to mark if they have been treated for mental illness, that is a flaw. Ha!
I used to cringe at the thought of some of the people walking out the door. Now, you CAN refuse to sell to anyone, but that is really bad for business and could have some race/bad PR implications. Not easy to navigate.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: II fully agree with The Bull, BUT I think we could
Mar 23, 2021, 12:19 PM
[ in reply to II fully agree with The Bull, BUT I think we could ] |
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Some people on the right are fond of saying that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".
Some of those same people than resist efforts to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people too.
They can't have it both ways. If one really wants to protect 2nd Amendment rights, they should support proper registration and background checks.
It is good to hear that you support that. I have found a number of gun shop workers who agree.
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Rock Defender [53]
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So you have to be thoroughly ID’d and vetted
Mar 23, 2021, 1:31 PM
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All-In [26968]
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The level of regulation is commensurate with
Mar 23, 2021, 1:36 PM
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the potential impact on society, not with the validity of the "right".
Prescription drugs are more regulated than paper clips, not because we have more of a "right" to paper clips, but because the drugs have the potential for greater negative impact on society at large.
*This is not intended as a comment for or against regulation of either guns or voting, or drugs, or paper clips*
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Rock Defender [53]
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Prescription drugs and paper clips are not in the Constitution
Mar 23, 2021, 1:38 PM
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All-In [26968]
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Obviously none of the rights listed in the Constitution
Mar 23, 2021, 1:44 PM
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are absolute. You wouldn't argue that they should be, would you?
For example, we have the Freedom of Speech, but that right isn't absolute. There are lots of types of speech that are illegal, and I'd hope we agree they should be.
The Free Exercise of Religion is not absolute. I can't, for example, sacrifice children if that's my religion.
Similarly, the Keeping and Bearing Arms is not absolute. Just like other rights, it is regulated. There is constant debate on the degree of that regulation, is all.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Obviously none of the rights listed in the Constitution
Mar 23, 2021, 1:48 PM
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All-In [26968]
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That's true, however
Mar 23, 2021, 1:54 PM
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In reality, laws are applied a little more loosely than just because "it infringes on the rights of others". We actually discussed this in a thread about prostitution the other day. Sometimes, laws are passed because of a greater benefit to society, not just because there's a discrete violation of another's rights.
Generally, the regulation of the right to bear arms is intended to maximize "the general welfare," but of course, cannot violate the overall right to bear arms. The Supreme Court has allowed such regulation through the years, obviously, so it is Constitutional.
It's a difficult, complex spectrum of regulation to manage, and should be the subject of robust debate.
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All-In [26968]
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A federal voter ID law, for example,
Mar 23, 2021, 1:57 PM
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Would be a regulation on the right to vote intended to avoid potential for negative consequences of society. It would not be a matter of protecting someone else's rights. If I vote without an ID, that doesn't violate the right of another.
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All-In [26968]
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Just thinking about it, all kinds of laws
Mar 23, 2021, 2:09 PM
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Are more about "societal benefit" than "protection of rights".
Speeding in itself does not infringe on anyone else's rights. But it's bad for society, so it's illegal.
Tax evasion does not infringe on anyone else's rights. There are lots of examples I can think of.
I like this discussion...it's interesting to me.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [26968]
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It sounded like you just said prostitution is illegal
Mar 23, 2021, 2:04 PM
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Not because the act itself is criminal, but because it leads to other crimes, which is pretty close to what I said.
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All-In [26968]
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Also, let's be careful about the strawmen.
Mar 23, 2021, 2:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: That's true, however ] |
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It is not illegal to own a gun, and never will be in this country, precisely because of the Second Amendment.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Also, let's be careful about the strawmen.
Mar 23, 2021, 2:10 PM
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All-In [26968]
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The Supreme Court disagrees.
Mar 23, 2021, 2:15 PM
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I think your opinion is a good, valid one.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The Supreme Court disagrees.
Mar 23, 2021, 2:23 PM
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All-In [26968]
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I was thinking more holistically in terms of regulating
Mar 23, 2021, 2:50 PM
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the right, at all. Not really thinking in terms of federal/state.
But, my understanding is that if a law violates a Constitutional right, it does so whether the state or fed passes it.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Prescription drugs and paper clips are not in the Constitution
Mar 23, 2021, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to Prescription drugs and paper clips are not in the Constitution ] |
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T3
Actually there are - A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state . . .
Not to mention that NO right in the Bill of Rights is without limit - as has been established with centuries of court cases interpreting said Bill of Rights.
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110%er [5676]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 11:32 AM
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Recently, I'd say it's the victimization narrative pushed by the left. I know we all are smart-a$$es on here a lot, but seriously the rhetoric in the poor communities is not healthy. Not healthy at all. It is causing a lot of anger and resentment to be created in many, many people. This is nearly 100% invisible to suburbia and middle-income white people.
In round numbers, I believe blacks commit about half the homicides in the country. Obviously this is much higher per-capita than whites. If we could reduce the black homicide rate to that of whites, where would that put the US in the world ranks? It would be pretty easy to calculate.
Where are the US murders being committed? It's largely big cities. What is it about big cities that make them so different than Japan, Norway, Australia, and the UK? It's not purely people density - Japan has super high people density. Hmm. Some will say it is inequality...that inequality drives a lot of badness in the US. I don't buy it - there is inequality, but it is a symptom not a root cause.
Good question and interesting discussions.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 12:29 PM
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NC
A couple of points
1. I am not going to argue about victimization. People who see themselves as victims are a problem although I am not sure they are a violent one. The high per capita number of gun deaths in America has been true for a long, time. One other thing, could some of the trouble that you are labeling as victimization actually be prejudice instead ?
2. I wonder what happens with the numbers of homicides if we study it by socio-economic class rather than race. IOW, do poorer people commit a higher % of homicides than those who are better off ?
3. I wonder if cities have a much higher homicide rate per capita ? And you know one difference between US and the other countries that you mentioned. THEY have gun control laws - and far less guns per capita - go figure.
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110%er [5676]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 24, 2021, 2:35 PM
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re: no. 3: the other countries are also highly NOT diverse and have cultures that promote responsibility and family. London is diverse in the UK, but not so much the country as a whole.
Regarding gun control...if the US had gun control from the "beginning" and guns had not proliferated, things would be totally different.
Any wide-spread gun control now simply puts law-abiding citizens at risk. Criminals do not follow the law.
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Asking for serious suggestions ] |
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Unmelted lumps in the melting pot.
Most of those communities are ethnic, and most of them are immigrants. It's always been that way. These days they're non-white but it didn't use to be that way.
My grandmom was a German immigrant. She came across when she was thirteen not speaking a word of English. I remember one time she looked me dead in the eye and told me to never trust a Finlander. There was apparently big-time tension in Michigan City back in the day between the German and Finnish migrant communities for whatever reason...they just hated each other. Grandma was a true Finnish racist, called 'em "Squareheads", hated 'em something awful, had all sorts of just truly nasty things to say about them. Me being about six, I didn't know any better, I spent until I was about ten years old looking for dirty Fin Squareheads behind every tree when I visited her, I just knew they were out there. Whatever, though, apparently the Fins were later arrivals than the Germans, did not get the good jobs, and were generally thought of as shady. (Thanks loads, racist Grandmaw!)
Those unmelted lumps are still around in Michigan City and Gary and South Bend...and every city in the US of A, in fact. They're just black and Latino and even Arabic now, and from places like Guatamala and Somalia and Yemen instead of Germany and Finland.
The biggest problem that's frankly been added to poorer communities has been the proliferation of cheap firearms...and of course, drug gangs. A truly staggering number of guns have gotten dumped into the inner cities over the years...which has caused a massive pullback into the 'burbs, which in turn caused a massive drying up of business and capital in the poorer neighborhoods...it's a vicious cycle. Sometimes you see the reverse, too, when all that cheap property languishing around causes a massive property boom, and you see this massive gentrification cycle, and all of a sudden the poorer residents get bought and priced right out of their own neighborhood overnight.
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All-In [26503]
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I would go to ChiTown and ask them
Mar 23, 2021, 11:39 AM
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My guess would be letting gangbangers play cowboys and indians
Fix? Lock up criminals
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Orange Blooded [3058]
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Re: I would go to ChiTown and ask them
Mar 23, 2021, 12:40 PM
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We hear a lot about the incarceration rate in the US, as if that implies something is wrong with our system. I wonder, should the people who are in jail be in jail? If they should, then I'm not bothered by the incarceration rate.
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All-In [26503]
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I dont follow ... if someone is sitting in a jail cell
Mar 23, 2021, 12:49 PM
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How do they shoot someone?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: I would go to ChiTown and ask them
Mar 23, 2021, 3:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: I would go to ChiTown and ask them ] |
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Dawg,
How do we assess whether our prison system could be improved unless we compare it to other civilized country's systems ? How do we decide what works unless we compare results ?
I would argue that a lot of them do not belong in jail. Non-violent marijuana offenses might be a good example.
Finally, chem indicated that he thought locking up MORE people would reduce our gun related deaths. I don't think that argument stands up to a reality check.
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Orange Blooded [3058]
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Re: I would go to ChiTown and ask them
Mar 23, 2021, 4:31 PM
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Seems to me incarceration statistics of other countries are irrelevant to the questionof who is incarcerated in US prisons. By incarceration I'm assuming you mean prison (not county lock-up for the weekend). Are US prisons full of marijuana users? Doubtful. One good way to reduce the incarceration numbers would be to exercise personal responsibility and not break the law. That never seems to be part of the discussion, though.
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Orange Blooded [3058]
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Re: I would go to ChiTown and ask them
Mar 23, 2021, 7:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: I would go to ChiTown and ask them ] |
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Sounds like it isn't our prison system you have issue with, it's our laws. What you really want to do is re-examine our laws (which lead to incarceration) in light of other countries, presumably with lower incarceration rates.
I don't believe our prisions are full of non-violent MJ users. As for "non-violent MJ offenses", I assume you mean trafficking, which I think is probably far from a non-violent business. Just because a couple of Gen Xers or Boomers are stitting around peacefully toking away, doesn't mean there isn't violence attached to the mj biz.
Chem can answer for what he means. If we are locking up people with a propensity for violence, then I agree that reduces gun deaths.
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All-TigerNet [13107]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 11:46 AM
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More abortions
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 12:32 PM
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Keowee - Brilliant, as usual.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 1:17 PM
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In my opinion, it's a complicated issue with probably no real solution short of total confiscation which I strongly oppose and is not even truly possible as there are several hundred million guns in the U.S. now. My wife thinks I own at least a million of them.
I think Americans and particular areas of America are much more violent than many other areas of the world. The erosion of the family and in particular the paucity of in home fathers with large population clusters in concentrated areas has unleashed scores of young men with little hope or respect for themselves or anyone else. Life itself is not respected.
The combinations of large amounts of guns readily available legally or illegally coupled with young rudderless males is a very bad situation.
I suspect the numbers of guns in middle class and high income zip codes is actually higher than one might imagine. Yet, the rate of homicides I would contend remains largely confined to low income areas with potentially overall low gun ownership.
Switzerland has a very high rate of guns in the home, yet has a ridiculously low gun violence rate and hasn't had a mass shooting since 2001.
I believe we are at heart a very violent society and the genie is out of the bottle. Guns are easily acquired on the street.
It is certainly easier to kill people more efficiently with a gun than with a knife, club or fist, but if guns could be magically eliminated, I suspect the U.S. would still be a very violent society. The problem is a lack of respect and the abandonment of embracing the idea that there are moral absolutes. Murder is very much against the law with harsh penalties, yet it goes on and on.
Sorry Tobias, I don't have a solution, but I know taking guns away from law abiding citizens will do little except convert those same people into criminals. The criminals will not turn their's in. American's are not as compliant as the Brits or Aussies. Few will turn their weapons in voluntarily.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 3:36 PM
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ron
I agree that there are a lot of ingrained aspects of this problem, but I hate to see us just throw up our collective hands about it.
BTW, I am not for getting rid of all guns, but there are some that I think we could do without and lose very little of consequence from it.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 6:12 PM
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Please let us know which guns you would prohibit if you could do so. Define an assault weapon please. Since most murders are committed with hand guns would you ban them? Would you ban an AR-15, but not a short barreled pump shotgun? What particular ammunition would you ban? How would you enforce any ban? How successful was prohibiting alcohol? According to the CDC, alcohol leads to approximately 95,000 deaths per year. Many of these deaths are due to drunk drivers, drunk boaters, abusive husbands, etc. Do we go back to Prohibition?
The Gun Violence Archive states that at least 19,223 people died from gun violence in 2020.
Banning weapons and banning alcohol are not the answer in my opinion.
Evil people do evil things. Society is a lot less kinder and gentler. I have guns to shoot with, hunt with and protect my family with. I can assure you I will never kill another person unless they deserve it. However, put those same weapons into the hands of people who don't give a #### about anyone and I assure you murders would be committed with those same weapons. Therein lies the problem.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Make the penalty for suicide much stronger and more punitive***
Mar 23, 2021, 1:20 PM
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110%er [5676]
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Re: Make the penalty for suicide much stronger and more punitive***
Mar 24, 2021, 2:39 PM
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Funny, but appropriate. There are a lot of suicides by gun.
IMO, these are the smart ones. How do you jump off a building or jump in front of a train? Sheesh!
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Legend [19944]
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Demographics
Mar 23, 2021, 3:41 PM
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The safest states in the US in terms of violent crime are Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire. These states have virtually no gun control, and they aren't particularly wealthy (Maine is actually one of the poorer states). They do have an awful lot of white folks, though, and very little "diversity".
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6631a9.htm
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Asking for serious suggestions
Mar 23, 2021, 11:16 PM
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It’s easy. Most of the countries you mention have higher murder rates due to mass bombings, be headings by pocket knives or chainsaws, hangings/ dismemberment, and other types of cruel and unusual punishment. Quit being naive dude!
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