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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 11:48 AM
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I think brownell is a great guy and a great coach. He runs a clean program and his players have graduated. His players seem to really like him and the team culture seems good.
Brownell's main issue is recruiting. He is not a super outgoing Dabo-like recruiter. I would say he's a very average recruiter. There are a lot of reasons unrelated to brownell that Clemson has historically sucked at basketball. A lot of these issues have been resolved and some still persist. Since the renovation, our recruiting and performance have been much better. We have gone to 2 of 4 tourneys and also went the the sweet 16. We are 5th in the ACC in wins over this span.
I would understand if we fired brownell at the end of the year (given no NCAA appearance). He has been here a long time with limited success. Could a new coach come in, and be able to recruit well with the new facilities? If we hired a new coach that came in and did well, would we be able to retain him?
I would also understand if we kept him after this season regardless of the outcome. We should be better next year (given no crazy transfers or injuries). His best player he's recruited will be a junior and he has one of his best recruiting classes coming in. You also know he will improve the team with transfers as he has done every year. If we don't make tourney this year or next year, he needs to go.
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All-In [31199]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 11:55 AM
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My issue and I don’t pretend to know anything specific is the lack of enthusiasm for Men’s/women’s bball. I have been turned off for a good many years and would love to see some sort of revival of the program as far as excitement surrounding the team. I agree on the good person/ clean program characteristic of coach Brownell but it is definitely stale in my opinion.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 12:05 PM
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I agree with your points. I would also point to finances. A new coach, one that everyone would want, will cost a bunch of money. Yes we can go on the cheap but then the chances of progress decline. So if you had an extra $1.5M to spend on an annual basis would you spend it on football, soccer or maybe softball instead of a basketball program which has been below average for 100 years? If you did spend it on basketball what are the chances the program improves? As for those who dont know money at Clemson is in fact a finite resource.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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My personal take FWIW...
Feb 3, 2022, 12:11 PM
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Brownell is a really good guy and he runs a clean program.
However, he is not a great coach and I think Clemson should have fired him several years ago.
There is no justifiable reason why Clemson shouldn't expect to have a consistent top 25 men's basketball program reaching the NCAA Tournament at a minimum of seven out of every ten years.
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Legend [16472]
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If fringe=80% of Tigernet, then yes.
Feb 3, 2022, 6:25 PM
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 12:15 PM
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Wait till next year and he has his best recruiting class coming(hear this every other year and currently sit at 39th nationally). Dang we are to college basketball what Scar is to college football.
Wouldn't bother me if we got a coach that we couldn't retain....I'll sure as hell enjoy the ride that gets us there as opposed to same ole' same ole'
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All-TigerNet [11423]
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You aren't going to know until you don't try is my opinion
Feb 3, 2022, 12:16 PM
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I am fine foe giving Brad another year since Clemson has a brand new AD, but at the end of the day you have to show more successful results.
Regarding one of his best recruiting classes, we are talking a top 45 class. That is one of his best? He has only had one top 25 class and two of those three recruits transfered after one season. That can't happen...
Regarding the next coach when that happens. A good coach can bring in a good players through the portal and immediately get results. Look at Iowa State this season. Their new 1st year coach brings in 6 or 7 transfers and they are a top 25 team. They all bought into playing real good defense and playing good fundamental offense.
But you got to try eventually....
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110%er [6692]
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Re: You aren't going to know until you don't try is my opinion
Feb 3, 2022, 12:22 PM
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Plus we don't know who he will get in the transfer portal either. I am on the fence. I just know what he has done hasn't been good enough. We might be really good next year though. I say keep him one more year. We have a lot coming back. Hall will be even that much better though.
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All-TigerNet [11423]
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So losing Tyson, Collins, Bohannon....
Feb 3, 2022, 1:21 PM
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Is bringing everyone back? Also, guarantee they lose at least two players they were counting on coming back to the portal.
Yes, they will have Hall probably, two guards in Dawes and Honor that are too inconsistent, hopefully Chase Hunter stays healthy, not too mention three good potential freshmen, but are not difference makers in one season ala Jarbari Smith at Auburn or other top 50 prospects.
I'm sorry, see a lot of the same thing. Not much better if at all...
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110%er [6692]
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Re: So losing Tyson, Collins, Bohannon....
Feb 3, 2022, 1:44 PM
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I didn't realize all 3 of those dudes were gone. I forgot Tyson was a senior. That is a lot actually, but we bring back our point guards, Hemenway is really coming around as well. Nice to have a back court. Hunter is really coming around too. We will have issues though upfront. Hall is what we will have. I am sure we will get some transfers, but yeah not as set as I originally thought.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 12:19 PM
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I think the odds the next guy will pull it off is pretty questionable. Why not try though? If he doesn't go to the tournament generally, nothing has changed. Either way fans will be interested for a bit with something new to hope for. If it works great. If not..we are where we were basically.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 12:23 PM
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Actually disregard above. I think with the roster we have coming back, he should get one more year. If he doesn't do it next year, he 100% should be gone. We are bringing a lot back. He will have no excuses next year.
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 12:26 PM
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The ACC keeps getting weaker every year and this is the weakest it has ever been. If he can't do it now I don't think he ever will.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 12:29 PM
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I tend to agree with you, but I really like what we are bringing back next year. Would that same team return with a new coach or would they transfer. I feel you have to bring him back. Look at what we have coming back. Then after that we will be weak again.
https://www.tigernet.com/2021-clemson-basketball-roster![]() Roster
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All-In [27363]
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For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet? ] |
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An elite basketball program they will have to recruit elite talent. I’m not sure there is a coach willing to take this job who can bring that kind of talent to Clemson. Big time players aren’t going to sign with Clemson because the interest in the sport does not exist on this campus. And that AIN’T Brownells fault. Most of you blame the Coach. I blame the pitiful student body that chooses to NOT be a part of the program. At some universities the students line up and camp out to buy tickets. At Clemson the tickets can’t be given away. As an old Clemson Alum, that is disgraceful.
Get off BBs back. HE is not the reason Clemson is not a top program. The next guy will not be either.
The game last night showed me, and it should have showed you, that Clemson CAN be good!
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110%er [6692]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 12:41 PM
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We don't need an elite coach, but just a slightly better coach who can recruit slightly better as well. We aren't that far off from being a tournament team.
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All-In [27363]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 12:46 PM
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Wrong. We need a slightly better group of followers who would rather be in Littlejohn in the evenings rather than in Tiger Town Tavern!
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110%er [6692]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 12:56 PM
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It's the fans fault?
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 12:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Clemson to become ] |
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This argument is laughable. Would Clemson make the NCAA every year if I were the coach and Littlejohn sold out for every game? Doubtful. That's like saying Hatfield was a bad coach because he couldn't sell out the Valley. Time for a change, but I doubt a first-year AD will have the guts to do it.
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Legend [16213]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 2:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Clemson to become ] |
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So don't replace the coach, replace the student body he's coaching for. Got it.
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Orange Blooded [4444]
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Rock Defender [53]
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110%er [6692]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 12:58 PM
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I think you posted that in the wrong spot. I think you wanted that to Forrest. Unless I aligned it wrong. Yeah it looked rocking. The students were into it too.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Clemson to become ] |
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Last night's turnout was worsen and greatly influenced the game.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: For Clemson to become
Feb 3, 2022, 1:12 PM
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Weird autocorrect. *last night's turnout was awesome.
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All-TigerNet [11423]
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Maybe 6500 was awesome?
Feb 3, 2022, 1:25 PM
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OK if that is your opinion...
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Maybe 6500 was awesome?
Feb 3, 2022, 1:38 PM
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They were loud on tv and helped in the outcome of the game. Did they not?
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All-In [27363]
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And
Feb 3, 2022, 1:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Clemson to become ] |
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The Tigers won. Perhaps you saw Hall urging the fans for support!
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Legend [16416]
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What if Bruce Pearl thought that way?
Feb 3, 2022, 1:48 PM
[ in reply to For Clemson to become ] |
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Not really arguing for or against retaining Brownell, but whomever is the coach next season better invest some time, thought and energy in engaging the students and boosters, or we will be on a downward spiral. Atmosphere and energy (or lack thereof) affects recruiting, which in turn affects performance on the floor.
FWIW, my freshman daughter goes to every home game she is able. Maybe I will have to ask her what the students are saying. Whatever the situation, she's not a part of the problem...she loves it. Maybe Brownell needs to put together a student advisory committee.
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CU Medallion [56654]
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Great guy, sure. Great coach? LOL.***
Feb 3, 2022, 12:50 PM
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All-In [43517]
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Apart from Larry Shyatt, CBB has the worst results for ALL
Feb 3, 2022, 12:51 PM
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Clemson coaches since 1975, using win % as the marker here.
He's also the longest tenured coach in the history of our program.
Think about that. He's not in the top 4 of our last 6 coaches, yet has the longest tenure of all time.
Ok, so we slide him some grace over playing in Greenville. Fine. Give him a COVID year. Fine. All of those ships have sailed.
I guess the way I look at it is what do we have to lose? What are we going to do, finish 13th in the ACC instead of 10th? IMO that really wouldn't matter.
We need to find someone that can get us into the top half of the ACC. Someone that can go slightly above .500 in league play, win most non-conference games, and get us to the NCAA tourney/sniff 20 wins every third year. I don't feel like that's asking a whole lot.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Apart from Larry Shyatt, CBB has the worst results for ALL
Feb 3, 2022, 1:45 PM
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I looked at the roster wrong. He needs to go.
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CU Guru [1697]
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If we don't make the tournament this year, he should go...
Feb 3, 2022, 12:53 PM
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Getting historical wins but not making the tournament means that you are still not better than any season where you got no historical wins but made the tournament. He's had 11 seasons to improve the program culturally and competitively, but he can only point to maintaining the culture of his predecessor and certainly cannot claim to even have maintained the program competitively. BB's program is like that stock teases you into making the investment because it should produce growth, but the historical data averages out to a growth of less than 1% on a $100 investment... even after 5 years.
Brownell is 11 seasons older and has not shown us any growth, it's time to sell...
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CU Medallion [56654]
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Couldn’t we just try giving him $2 million more a year and
Feb 3, 2022, 8:57 PM
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see what happens? Please, please, pretty please? Like a clinical trial? You’ll never know if it’ll work unless you try it.
Judge Brownell seems to think it might do the trick.
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CU Guru [1697]
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Re: Couldn’t we just try giving him $2 million more a year and
Feb 7, 2022, 12:54 PM
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You can... but that would only further cement the theory as reality that we don't care about basketball...
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Legend [19567]
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The inarguable key is recruiting
Feb 3, 2022, 3:48 PM
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in basketball more than any other sport that is about the head coach. In order for Clemson to rise where we all want it the head coach will have to be a top flight recruiter. Is that Brad?
You can hire a bench coach for strategy. But the head guy has to sell himself as someone higher rated recruits will want to play for. The name Clemson, honestly, has little to sell as a basketball destination. The head guy will have to be a dynamic recruiter to make it a destination. If we could just land our share of the 4-5 star guys in state, few as there are on a regular basis, the program would take a major leap forward. In state since Brad has been here I believe Hall is the only, highly rated, in state player he has landed.
Now think about all the 4-5 star guys who went elsewhere. 12 years of watching highly rated recruits leave our own back yard. If you can't sell top flight in state kids on coming here, how can you sell top flight out of state kids on it?
Brad's 4 star recruits in 12 years consist of Hall, Prosper (transfer after 1 season), Kidd (transfer after 1 season), Dawes, and Blossomgame. I think that's it. Add who else if it isn't. His highest rated player was a transfer in Thomas.
That's simply not sustainable if we really want to move up.
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All-TigerNet [11423]
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Legend [19567]
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So six 4 star recruits in 12 years?
Feb 3, 2022, 5:29 PM
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that is not going to lead to elevating the program.
That's the entire issue with Brad in a nutshell. All the other qualities he possesses will not lead to elevating the program as a whole without better recruiting. After 12 years, I think it's safe to say that isn't happening.
The best recruiter we've had was Barnes. He landed Jamison and Christie in one class, both 4 stars. And the 3 star, Boogie, in that class was a impact player as a Freshman, as was Buckner the prior year. I don't think Brad has ever had an impact Freshman, not even guys who were overlooked like those 2.
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Legend [19567]
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That's not counting Tates who had
Feb 3, 2022, 5:32 PM
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his own special recruiting philosophy
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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Could you clarify what fringe opinion you’re
Feb 3, 2022, 3:51 PM
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Talking about ?
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110%er [6974]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 6:21 PM
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If I were the A.D., anything less than ACC tournament win I would immediately terminate Brownell’s contract at the end of the season. Strictly looking at the data Brownell is the 9th highest paid coach of the ACC so we are actually getting a slight bargain for his performance, which is around 7th ON AVERAGE. However there are those of us that Clemson who feel we can do better. I would find a young and hungry coach, may be a young version of Coach K or Bruce Pearl, and pay him 1.5 million a year. However his contract would be heavily incentive laden allowing him to make up to 3,.5 million through performance. Similar to what Dabo had when he became head coach at Clemson. Bonuses would kick in at the following:
ACC championship game appearance
ACC championship win, tourney or regular season
Finishing in the top four of the conference
Making the NCAA tournament
A different value on each round of the tournament made
This sends a clear message that Clemson wants results in basketball and is willing to pay for it, and not let a guy sit on his rear in making 2 1/2 million a year and winning not a single game that matters most seasons
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Orange Blooded [2403]
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Re: Is this seriously a fringe opinion on tigernet?
Feb 3, 2022, 9:13 PM
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I don't like his live game coaching decisions. I'm done with him. It isn't going to change.
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