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CU Medallion [58411]
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What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
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May 23, 2023, 8:21 AM
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his message is spot-on: "I look forward to persuading the American people, right and left, within my base and from the far side, to making sure we move this country forward, using common sense and common ground."
That is EXACTLY what is missing in the political arena in 2023, especially at the very top. Politicians who don't realize, practice and embrace this, are not leaders, but partisan simpletons. This is precisely why Trump lost in 2020; he spent his entire campaign focused entirely on his hard core base, attending rally after rally filled with hordes of his most rabid supporters, basking in the adoration and having his ego stroked, while not only ignoring anyone outside of his base or their concerns, but actually demonizing them. Then he listened to polling numbers and any feedback that seemed to support his success, and THAT is why he lost. If Trump and Biden run again, one will win, and one will ose, of course, so the "objective" will be achieved, but is winning the right objective, or is actually leading, and leading the right way by being the president for all Americans important?
I know Tim Scott is a long shot at this point, and he may not be "the one", but we desperately need somebody that understands the importance of acknowledging all legitimate sides, views, and concerns, and persuading rather than automatically demonizing and dividing, which is all we have now. You don't have to agree with, support or encourage views and behaviors you don't agree with, but Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals, Christians, Muslims, atheists, gheys, trans, confederate flag wavers, BLM, all races and ethnicities, even Gamecocks, are all AMERICANS. Any legitimate, effective leader understands and embraces that, and they understand that you can do all of that and meet people in the middle while standing firm on your own principles and convictions.
Whether it's Tim Scott or somebody else, that's what America desperately needs, and that's what I'm looking for. A message of hope and optimism for all Americans.
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All-In [27113]
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I don't see how people have the energy to be angry anymore.***
May 23, 2023, 8:22 AM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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I hope people will get tired of it at some point.***
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May 23, 2023, 8:25 AM
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All-TigerNet [13105]
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Anyone thinking the “message” will win another election is a fool
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May 23, 2023, 8:27 AM
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Voter roll and drop box management will win elections (see Fetterman). Pubs are way behind the curve, and thinking that a moderate or a “message”will win; is just playing into the Dems hands.
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Lot o points [155901]
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I don’t think you’re 100% correct
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May 23, 2023, 8:34 AM
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But you sure aren’t 100% wrong.
Pubs are going to have to play ball at some point with Dem tactics, because losing case after case two years after you got stomped in an election isn’t working.
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All-In [27113]
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Being against early voting to the point that you eschewed
May 23, 2023, 8:51 AM
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all early voting efforts was a fundamentally stupid GOP strategy, but at least I think they've realized this.
Telling your constituents the vote is rigged, which is basically telling people they're wasting their time even showing up, was fundamentally retarded (using that word in its true meaning) that cost the GOP the Senate. Not sure if they've figured that one out yet.
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Orange Blooded [4776]
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Re: Being against early voting to the point that you eschewed
May 23, 2023, 9:08 AM
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When you encourage all of your voters to show up on election day its relatively easy to rig the voting machines to go down that day in select areas to destroy the ability of those people to vote. Just see Arizona if you have any doubts about the effectiveness of this strategy. Republicans need to either change the laws to what they've been for decades or, if that's not an option, they need to start collecting votes the moment it can be done.
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110%er [7207]
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It's all rigged!***
May 23, 2023, 9:13 AM
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: It's all rigged!***
May 23, 2023, 11:19 AM
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So the party that is trying to make it more difficult to vote claims the voting was rigged?
"Rigged election" is the claim of the brain-damaged.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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110%er [7207]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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How he is going to accomplish persuading other people
May 23, 2023, 9:00 AM
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instead of demonizing them? No, he did not specifically give details,issue by ussue, person by person, encompassing every possible scenario. I assumed he would do it by trying to find common ground and trying to persuade them, instead of dismissing and demonizing them, as is being done on all fronts now.
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All-TigerNet [11946]
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We're way past the point of persuading anyone
May 23, 2023, 9:14 AM
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with an austere, small gubmint approach to the hordes who belive gubmint is their daddy.
How does one find common ground with a suburban wine woman who believes we have a climate crisis, and that the US is systemically racist?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Here's how...
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May 23, 2023, 10:04 AM
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Start with this: Suburban wine woman is an American, and is not your enemy. She is just a person who, like you, has been been persuaded to believe certain things. You have many things in common with wine woman; you are both Americans, live in the same city, maybe on the same street, you both have children, you both want health, safety, peace and prosperity for yourself and your family. You probably like some of the same music and movies. Then accept that you may not be able to persuade her on anything, but keep those lines of communication that make it possible open as long as you can. When we lose the ability to do that, it's just a matter of time before the shooting starts, and I don't believe it has to be that way. I think we have people who have persuaded many of us to believe it does, unfortunately.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Here's how...
May 23, 2023, 10:14 AM
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Suburban wine woman is an American, and is not your enemy.
You're trying to reason with a man who doesn't believe women should be allowed to vote. Yeah, he said that.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Here's how...
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May 23, 2023, 10:17 AM
[ in reply to Here's how... ] |
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The ship may have sailed but it’s way past time to have more dialogue and less debate. Participation in dialogue allows one to possibly be persuaded of the merits of someone else’s views.
Debate is usually a fixed position and typically changes neither party’s mind.
Listening to a different viewpoint is rarely harmful whether that viewpoint is accepted or rejected.
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: Here's how...
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May 23, 2023, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to Here's how... ] |
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The biggest problem we're up against is that the line between news and Infotainment has completely blurred, and networks seeking profit have long-since discovered that populistic divisiveness sells.
The problem is, as a culture we're confusing that with news, and pundits posing as newsmen go unchallenged.
One obvious solution would be honesty in advertising: a requirement that only straight news programs (evaluated by their peers) can call themselves "news". Anything that blurs the line between partisan propaganda and news would have to call itself INFOTAINMENT or OPINION or some such - a tag that would have to remain on all their broadcasts for the duration of the program. Which initially would probably affect virtually all cable "news" programming.
Once everybody starts realizing that neither Tucker Carlson nor Rachel Maddow or any of their ilk are actual news but are in fact largely partisan propaganda shows, I think the spell will be broken fairly quickly.
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110%er [7207]
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Yeah, I was going to post this somewhere else
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May 23, 2023, 12:23 PM
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, but it also seems appropriate here. If you really want some sort of progress in this area you have to be able to agree on SOMETHING. You need to both be grounded in the same reality to have some sort of civil discussion, but on just about every salient issue you would have to go back all the way to the Earth is round to even start talking. It's a shame, I would really love a republican party that had solutions to things rather than denying that they even exist.
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110%er [7207]
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Heisman Winner [137908]
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What in the actual ####.***
May 23, 2023, 2:38 PM
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110%er [7207]
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Oh GOP
May 23, 2023, 2:51 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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110%er [7207]
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Thank you, great example.
May 23, 2023, 1:18 PM
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How far back would we have to go to agree on something? Trans people exist and they should be treated with dignity?
You also hit on another, big issue: needing to see the other side as evil. Have you ever thought that maybe progressives aren't "nuts" and don't want to harvest children for their fountain of youth blood, but instead just want the best health outcomes?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Thank you, great example.
May 23, 2023, 1:40 PM
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110%er [7207]
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So let's bring this full circle.
May 23, 2023, 2:03 PM
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Abortion is another great example, we're probably even further apart from being able to agree on something. We probably disagree on if a fetus is a person, right? Now I believe a fetus isn't a life and I believe abortion rights are women's rights. Furthermore, I don't care if you think life begins at conception or whenever, that's fine just you can choose not to have an abortion. Now, is rhetoric like calling people baby killers or child murderers helping? What's Tim Scott's message on this? Do we even know? I'd assume he backs a strict national abortion ban, but honestly don't know.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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I agree that's a huge problem.
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May 23, 2023, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: Here's how... ] |
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At some point, it is incumbent upon the citizens to be aware of the obvious. People are being divided deeper and deeper by infotainment echo chambers that are simply reinforcing their fears and biases.
I am a child of the 60s. The message I grew up with was "We are all the same on the inside, and that's the most important thing". I guess that's not as profitable in 2023.
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All-In [42151]
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
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May 23, 2023, 10:22 AM
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" Real Leaders" are those who can separate right from wrong and put the country first. What we have today is an electorate who lacks the balls to reward politicians who stand up for what's right instead of what's best politically. Ask LCheney what happens when a politician sacrifices their political career to stand up for what's right and best for the country. They get demonized by partisan simpletons who talk a good game, but can't actually walk the walk.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
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May 23, 2023, 10:39 AM
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Real leaders understand that people don't always agree regarding right and wrong, and if we are to stay united as a country, and as a society, we must find common ground where we can, and be civil regarding our differences.
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 10:52 AM
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Why was LCheney run out of politics? What did she do "wrong"? I'll wait.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 11:11 AM
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Simple - she took a very unpopular position and went against her party. No great mystery there.
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 11:15 AM
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So she bucked being a "partisan simpleton"? LOL at your hypocrisy. Your OP is shot.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 11:34 AM
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How am I a hypocrite for stating a fact?
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 11:51 AM
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You whine about politicians being "political simpletons" in the OP, but justify politicians losing their political careers when they think for themselves and go against being a "party simpleton". Your OP is completely disingenuous. 😆
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CU Medallion [58411]
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You are doing exactly what Catahoula did the other day,
May 23, 2023, 12:22 PM
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and what happens in here all of the time: Claiming I did something I did not do.
Show me where I "justified" Liz Cheney losing her job. Now I'll wait.
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Re: You are doing exactly what Catahoula did the other day,
May 23, 2023, 1:09 PM
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Oh please. You're happy that she got ousted because she didn't stick to the partisan game plan of defending DADDY at all cost. If you honestly feel she wad unfairly treated for wishing to uphold the Constitution and peaceful transfer of power, then let's hear it.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: You are doing exactly what Catahoula did the other day,
May 23, 2023, 1:29 PM
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Let's start with this: Trump was totally full of #### about the stolen election. He lost because, as I said in the OP, instead of making any effort to reach out to those who did not agree with him, he demonized them and stayed in the echo chamber where he was adored. As a result, people hated him and turned out in droves to make sure he was not reelected. If he was guilty of any crimes during all of that, let him be charged and prosecuted, I'm all for it. For the gazillionth time, I have zero loyalty to Trump and wish he would just go away. He's a FOS narcissist and he's bad for the country.
As for Liz Cheney, she was a good senator and a good Republican (not that it matters to me) for the most part, and I always liked her. It was unfortunate the way her career wound up, but she made choices and must live with the predictable consequenses. To the extent she was trying to uphold the law and the constitution, good for her. However, she was publicly attacked and demonized by Trump and it's not a stretch at all to see that she, like everyone else on the panel, likely very had personal reasons for going after Trump, aside from patriotic duty. Was Trump wrong about the stolen election? Absolutely - it was a total fantasy. Was the Jan 6 committee in part a political hit job motivated by personal hatred? Absolutely 100%. Both can be true, and I believe they are.
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Orange Blooded [4776]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 12:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because ] |
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She did the same thing as every pro life Democrat politician the last twenty years. She had an unpopular opinion within her party and now she no longer has a job, just like all those pro life Democrats (plenty of them still exist you know) that are no longer in office due to them being brave, having convictions, etc etc
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 1:37 PM
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She was punished for not being a "partisan simpleton" and protecting DADDY at all costs. Those are the facts.
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Rock Defender [53]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 12:29 PM
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If nothing changes, you are correct. Personally, I still think it's worth fighting for, and I think there is still plenty of hope, and the right leaders can make a difference.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 12:39 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 12:57 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Either America is done, or there is something worth
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May 23, 2023, 1:08 PM
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fighting for. Personally, I don't think we are anywhere close to being done, and I am going to do all I can to make sure it's not. We can't tolerate lawlessness and incivility, and pretend that any of that is okay or justified; but we can't demonize everybody we disagree with, either. Every belief that others hold that is different from our own is not going to destroy our country, and we have to stop acting like it is.
We seem to have forgotten that we can stand strong in our own beliefs, and still tolerate opposing views, all while peacefully and sensibly working toward the changes we want. That understanding underpins our whole society, but we act now as if it's a crazy, unworkable concept.
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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Team Captain [496]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 10:40 AM
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I’m with you.
It’s been too long since I voted for a Republican (at the top of the ticket) … it would be wonderful to do so again.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 11:20 AM
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Wasn't that Joe Biden's message?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 11:41 AM
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No.
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Orange Blooded [4018]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 1:09 PM
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How so?
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 1:15 PM
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Because Biden spent the whole campaign running as a consensus builder who would reverse the fly-by-wire governing by Tweet of the Trump years. Everything about his campaign was about the ability to reach across the aisle.
But you act as if it was not, while saying we need more reaching across the aisle? It seems as if you are saying, "if Democrats would just support Republican policies more, everything would be peachy." That isn't bi-partisan cooperation.
The GOP has not been interested in reaching across the aisle since Mitch McConnell stated that his primary goal was to make Barack Obama a failed President.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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How exactly did Biden reach out to the half of the country
May 23, 2023, 1:32 PM
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that was solidly behind Trump the candidate and his policies?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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And ...
May 23, 2023, 1:37 PM
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Even if Biden had reached out, and I didn't vote for him, are you saying that makes me a political simpleton, and therefore a hypocrite? I'm not following your logic or the point you are trying to make.
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Associate AD [828]
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Re: And ...
May 23, 2023, 2:28 PM
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Well, I didn't call you a simpleton, but I have long thought you were a hypocrite. You pretend to take measured, balanced views, while being largely partisan. Just the other day, you took a shot for someone saying a liberal news source was biased (when he didn't give an example) when you have routinely claimed "bias" from serious news organizations (like WaPo) without citing specifics when the links are posted, in an attempt to nullify the premise with the single word "bias." The pot calling the kettle black is pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.
I don't think that "reaching across the aisle" means "reaching out to MAGAts." I think it means, "working with Democrats and Republicans who want to work together for the good of the country, on policies that help everyone and on which we can build a consensus." It doesn't mean kowtowing to the Liberty Caucus, which is also a minority of Republicans. Jobs, infrastructure... things we should be able to come to agreement on. That was certainly what Biden campaigned on. If you didn't want to hear it because he's a Democrat, okay, whatever. But then don't act as if you care about reaching across the aisle.
If you think reaching across the aisle means... well I don't know what you mean when it comes to reaching out to Trump supporters. I think you have to reach out to moderate Republicans who have largely sat on the sidelines the last four years.
Not to get off topic, but someone above mentioned the lack of anti-abortion Democrats (like there is an abundance of pro-choice Republicans?). New England is almost exclusively blue now. It wasn't that case when I moved here thirty years ago. It isn't blue because it has gotten the slightest bit more liberal. It is blue because the GOP has veered so hard to the right. There are a lot of pro-business, small-government folks in this part of the country, and they largely feel abandoned by a GOP that is obsessed with social issues.
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Associate AD [828]
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Also...
May 23, 2023, 4:00 PM
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"solidly behind Trump the candidate and his policies"
While there is certainly a cult of personality behind Trump, there is no real policy platform. He governed by Twitter and catchphrase in three-word bites. "Lock her up" and "Build that wall." Those really aren't policies. "Fake news" and "witch hunt" aren't policies, either.
He had one signature accomplishment, a tax cut for rich and big business. That accomplishment grew the deficit and didn't help the economy. Otherwise, he loaded SCOTUS with activist conservatives which, I guess makes the most extreme social conservatives happy, but not most of Americans (hence the abortion backlash against Republicans).
But there are no policies on which Trump really runs. If we was elected again, what do you think you'd see? Better schools? Better infrastructure? A more stable globe? Do you think he would continue to support Ukraine or would let Putin do what he wanted? What's the governing vision of Trump?
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Also...
May 23, 2023, 4:56 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46322
Joined: 4/23/00
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I think you are wrong.
May 23, 2023, 5:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: And ... ] |
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First though, in this thread Birm said ST complains of "political simpletons", but doesn't look in the mirror. So, Birm called me a political simpleton. I replied with How so? and you responded directly with Because ..., so naturally I assumed you were explaining how I was a political simpleton, since that was the question you responded to with no other qualification.
As for being partisan, I certainly have some strongly held views, and more often than not those views align more closely with Republicans than Democrats. If that makes me partisan, I'm fine with that and make no apology for it. One can be a partisan in that sense and still reach across the aisle, respectfully acknowledge the concerns of those from all political sides, and look for common ground. That's not what I'm talking about at all when I say "partisan simpletons". I'm talking about politicians and their sheep who see everything in black and white, through a political/ideological lens, defined strictly along party lines. I am certainly not that kind of a partisan. I don't look to any party or side for direction, guidance, or opinion; I often disagree with Republicans and speak out when I do. I also have family whom I love and respect who are Democrats, as well as friends with whom I get along with just fine. Being Republican or Democrat does not make one right or wrong, or good or bad. And just so you know, I'm not pretending when I say that.
As for being a hypocrite, you said You pretend to take measured, balanced views, while being largely partisan. Again, I see no conflict or contradiction, thus hypocracy, between having strongly held beliefs and usually falling on the same side of the political/ideological argument, and taking balanced, measured views. I don't understand that reasoning at all. As for the WaPo comment, you mentioned it yesterday and I responded. I don't recall what you are talking about, so I can't address it directly, but I will say again, if I questioned the veracity of a news story simply because The WaPo was the source, then I was wrong, I'll own it, and stand corrected. I do believe the WaPo has a clear left bias, however, and I stand by that.
I don't think that "reaching across the aisle" means "reaching out to MAGAts."
That's exactly what it means; or should. Most of them won't listen and are just as appalled by the idea as you are, but most are not Nazis and you'd find you have common ground with many. While you as an individual citizen have little immediate incentive to do so, any serious politician who wants to be an effective leader who unifies and moves the country forward, must reach out to all sides, and make an honest effort to find that common ground with as many as possible.
As for abortion, my personal belief is that human life begins at some point between conception and birth, but I can't say definitively exactly when. Nobody can. If so, however, the fetus at some point, before birth, is a human life with the right not to be killed. The fact that that can't be ruled out requires some kind of allowance for that possibility. Therefore I think some kind of comprimise should be a reasonable expectation, with all sides accepting on the front end that they won't get everything they want. Any extreme approach by pubs is indeed a formula for almost certain defeat in any national election. For what it's worth, according to PEW, Democrats are the ones whose views have changes over the last few decades, not Republicans: While Republicans’ and Democrats’ views on the legality of abortion have long differed, the 46 percentage point partisan gap today is considerably larger than it was in the recent past, according to the survey conducted after the court’s ruling. The wider gap has been largely driven by Democrats: Today, 84% of Democrats say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, up from 72% in 2016 and 63% in 2007. Republicans’ views have shown far less change over time: Currently, 38% of Republicans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, nearly identical to the 39% who said this in 2007. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/07/15/key-facts-about-the-abortion-debate-in-america/
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Associate AD [828]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 3982
Joined: 4/14/09
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Re: I think you are wrong.
May 23, 2023, 7:46 PM
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I'm sorry that I missed your prior reply re: "bias."
Abortion... and yet South Carolina is about to pass a 6-week ban, despite the objections of 3 Republican women in the Senate. I think a lot of the partisan shift on abortion (just personal opinion) is that the country continues to move more in the direction of being pro-choice, so the GOP is losing those voters. (The whole world is moving that direction, when you see staunchly Catholic countries like Mexico, Ireland, and Poland moving to protect women's reproductive rights.) I also think that pro-choice people who might not have had the issue at the top of their priority list, because they assumed Roe was the law of the land, have been galvanized, and are expressing more assertive stances.
Not to be argumentative, but the Washington Post is probably the third best newspaper in the country, after the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. While there may be a liberal slant to the op-eds, the news coverage is excellent. What troubles me re all three of these papers is when people scream "bias" when they don't like what the news rooms are reporting, even though the news rooms are the best in the nation and largely report facts as discovered.
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Orange Blooded [4776]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 4818
Joined: 1/8/19
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 12:30 PM
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Oh please. Trump got way more votes in 2020 than in 2016. He lost because Joe Biden, who barely campaigned, had terrible voter enthusiasm scores and never had anyone show up at any of his rallies, somehow managed to produce 81 million votes. More than anyone in history by several million. Not sure there was anything Trump could have said to generate 82 million votes and the same thing will happen in 2024 regardless of who gets the Pub nomination.
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Associate AD [828]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 3982
Joined: 4/14/09
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Re: What a shame if Tim Scott doesn't have a chance, because
May 23, 2023, 1:06 PM
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'spiracies!
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All-TigerNet [10887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15067
Joined: 8/6/10
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I can't believe people buy crap like that.***
1
May 23, 2023, 5:04 PM
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110%er [8984]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9785
Joined: 4/27/13
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he sounds detached from reality
May 23, 2023, 9:35 PM
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will finish behind haley before dropping out
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