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Replies: 18
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110%er [7086]
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We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 4, 2022, 11:44 PM
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PREFACE: Neither I nor does anyone that I know ('lefties' or 'righties' or 'down the middle-ies') want Russia to win the war with Ukraine.
But learning (and acknowledging) things that we don't like help to prevent us from being susceptible to propagandistic media ... even if that propaganda is (for the moment) consistent with our world view.
So here goes: Does anyone truly believe, or vehemently refuse to believe, that their is a prominent "Nazi" presence in Ukraine?
I do believe that Ukraine has a significant Nazi organization. Not too long ago, I posted information from Scott Ritter (a non-partisan ex-secret ops heavy hitter) who acknowledged Ukrainian Nazis.
Attached is a link from The Hill (March 27, 2018) which summarizes a congressional ban on supplying arms to Ukrainian Nazis. BTW, Democrat congressman (Ro Khanna - D-California) is the source cited in this article.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis/ Congress bans arms to Ukraine militia linked to neo-Nazis A little-noticed provision in the 2,232-page government spending bill passed last week bans U.S. arms from going to a controversial ultranationalist militia in Ukraine that has openly accepted neo-Nazis into its ranks. House-passed spending bills for the past three years have included a ban on U.S. aid to Ukraine from going to the Azov Battalion,…
(***) This post is not to 'sway' anyone against Ukraine. Rather, adults can recognize that everything is not perfect about Ukraine (and UKR has some really bad stuff), but that doesn't mean that we want a worse outcome via a Russian victory.
That is all.
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Lot o points [155674]
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Ehhhh
Apr 4, 2022, 11:57 PM
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Their President is Jewish. You’ll have a hard time convincing me they exist in numbers of any significance.
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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Yep. Polish saying: 'Every forest has its pigs.'
Apr 5, 2022, 12:09 AM
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Nothing is pure. Sometimes you have to let the wheat and weeds grow together and separate them later when it counts.
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110%er [7086]
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Re: Yep. Polish saying: 'Every forest has its pigs.'
Apr 5, 2022, 3:50 PM
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Smart and concise comment ... thanks!
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110%er [6400]
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Re: We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 2:08 AM
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Nazi: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which was founded in 1919 and seized political control in Germany in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.
Amazing isn't it, that over a hundred years later, anyone professing national pride would be described as such, provided their skin lacks commercially acceptable levels of melatonin, while people with commercially acceptable levels of melatonin shoot one another in our inner-cities and hack one another to death in Africa?
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CU Medallion [56005]
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And they slap one another during the Oscars telecast, too!
Apr 5, 2022, 9:23 AM
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Seriously though, that post is some of the craziest #### I've read on here in a while. Granted, I avoid the P&R bored.
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All-In [34823]
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Ricky Gervais at the Golden Globes a couple of years ago:
Apr 5, 2022, 9:36 AM
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"I was going to read a list of those who had died in the past year, but it wasn't diverse enough. Not on MY watch. Maybe next year."
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All-In [29823]
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Re: We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 3:43 AM
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About as gray as it gets...neo-nazis fighting to defend Ukraine from Russia since 2014. Talk about strange bedfellows. This might explain the Russian obsession with Mariupol.
It's an interesting article. But how do you keep guns away from those you don't want to have in a practical sense in this case? I guess there are times when "my enemies enemy is my friend."
To expand your point I'm thinking of a Ukraine history post that includes some interesting stuff. Like Russia gave Crimea to Ukraine. Khrushchev in fact. As sort of a "gift" for being in the Soviet Union. Naturally, a lot of Russians disagreed with giving a historical part of their country away as a perk or bribe of sorts. No excuse for upsetting the regional or world order, but it does explain some of the support Putin is getting back home.
With one invasion he can say "I'm killing nazis and getting our land back that should never have been given away in the first place."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
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110%er [7086]
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Re: We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 3:51 PM
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Just what I was hoping to get ... mucho thanks Fordtunate Son.
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Heisman Winner [135492]
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You know who we should send there to deal with the Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 8:15 AM
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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Ukraine's armed forces total some 350k to 400k men
Apr 5, 2022, 9:46 AM
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They are comprised of Active, Reserves, and Territorial Defense (i.e. local militia groups). The group that Russian propaganda (and some in the USA) uses to tar the whole of Ukraine with being "Nazis" is a Territorial Defense outfit called the Azov Battalion whose unit strength has bounced between 300 to 1000 members at any given time. They stick to their "home territory" in the Donetsk Region and came into existence in 2014 to fight the Russian supported Nazi separatist DNR groups (yes they exist too and I'll talk about that in a minute). So in it's totality - less than a quarter of one percent of the men fighting for Ukraine can legitimately be considered having a "neo-Nazi" affiliation. Compare that to the general anti-Semitic history of Europe, particularly in the former Soviet states, and that is a very low number.
As I've stated in a previous thread, much of Russia's national self esteem/identity is derived from their internal view of being the sole power responsible for defeating Hitler's Nazi Germany. Painting all of Ukraine as being a collection of active and passive Nazi's is a powerful propaganda tool and one that stirs the nationalistic blood of most Russians. So it is little wonder that the Kremlin is branding Ukraine as a full fledged Nazi state being propped up by the evil Western alliances as their main narrative to justify Putin's desired conquest of Ukraine.
The Ukraine "Nazi" narrative is nothing but a convenient lie for those who wish to accept Russian propaganda or use as justification to deny Western involvement/aid to Ukraine. Never mind that Ukraine elected a Jewish President with 73% of the vote...This convenient lie is akin to saying the USA is hopelessly racist and a Nazi haven because of the infinitely small number of fringe white supremacist/Neo-Nazi groups that exist in the USA.
Now to talk a little about those Russian Nazi groups... Look no further than the Sparta Battalion of the DPR whose leaders have all been Neo-Nazis. A few weeks ago Putin signed an Executive Order awarding the title of Hero of the Russian Federation to Vladimir Zhoga - former leader of this Neo Nazi militia who was killed in March. The Kremlin release stated: "The title of Hero of the Russian Federation has been awarded to Vladimir Zhoga (posthumously) for acts of heroism and courage while fulfilling his civic duty". Russia loves to scream about Ukraine's "Azov Battalion" but never mentions his own bunch of ethnic Russian Neo-Nazi militia...
Just a couple of days ago the head of the DNR, Denis Pushilin, awarding a medal to Lieutenant Colonel Timur Kurilkin for "destroying 250 Nazis" - which is ironic, considering Kurilkin has two neo-Nazi patches clearly visible on his uniform (Totenkopf head and a Valknot symbol).
This whole Ukraine is "Nazi" is a case study in the best lies and propaganda are always the ones that include a smidgen of truth. Using the Azov Battalion to paint all of Ukraine as "Nazi" is just such a case.
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All-In [34823]
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Spot on***
Apr 5, 2022, 9:48 AM
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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110%er [7086]
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All-TigerNet [11626]
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If you were in Ukraine...
Apr 5, 2022, 12:54 PM
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And Russians were going through your town binding the hands of your neighbors and executing them in the streets, do you really GAF who is shooting at the Russians?
It's war time. Murder, rape, burning, etc. is all going on at the hands of Russians. I certainly wouldn't GAF if some neo-nazi wanted a gun to kill some Russians. Political ideologies, personal beliefs, etc. would all be background noise as long as you want to kill some Russian invaders.
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All-In [29823]
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Re: We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 1:34 PM
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Nazis aside, Ukraine is a split nation, and Putin is taking full advantage of that. Take a look at these graphs. Right down to the base level of the language spoken in parts of the country...
This is from the 2010 election. The Blue guy is Viktor Yanukovych, who was the Ukranian Prime Minister 3 times from 2006 till he won the presidency in 2010 - representing, and propelled into office, largely by east Ukraine. This looks like any pre-Civil War electoral map in our country.
He was overthrown in the Maidan Square Revolution in Kiev in 2014, largely because he was dragging his feet on joining the EU, which his parliament had overwhelming approved. (He was in favor of aligning with the EEU - or Russia and their eastern economic friends). Probably being bribed by Putin. I have no evidence of that but why go against your parliament?
But as always, not everyone is happy with everything. So the Russian speakers in the country, in Crimea and the Donbas, protested the protests.
Ukraine views these Southeast regions as backward hicks, thugs, and separatists. Not unlike how we view Texas or Lexington County. A Ukranian newspaper in 2005 even described southeast Ukraine as "...home to "fifth column" Russian lovers, and that speaking Ukrainian in the region was "not safe for one's health and life".
So when Putin loses and goes home, and he will, Ukraine will still be a split country, with their version of left/right extremists on both sides, and lots of internal issues to work out. Only, they won't have an ocean on either side of them to prevent cross-border influence and invasion from meddling punks like Putin.
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110%er [7086]
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Re: We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 3:56 PM
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Your fine work (providing many details) is always enlightening. The original post wasn't meant as a 'yes / no' question; it's a pleasure to read something when a propaganda (either that which I want to believe or that which I don't want to believe) isn't part of the answer.
Many thanks (again) Fordtunate Son.
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All-In [29823]
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Re: We want RUS to lose, but who acknowledges UKR Nazis?
Apr 5, 2022, 6:33 PM
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More info is never a bad thing. The whole Nazi claim struck me as incredibly odd, almost to the point of lunacy, when I first heard of it. And no media outlet that I've read yet has addressed it beyond painting it as "insane." In my opinion that is a failing of our media, on all sides.
But to dig a bit deeper, and understand WHY Putin is using it as an excuse and WHY it resonates with the Russian people is valuable and useful insight. Everything has a history, and the more you know of it the better you can understand how he is manipulating his folk.
He's no fool, and he's pushing just the right buttons to paint the picture he wants to paint to Russians and to what supporters he may have in Ukraine.
It's manipulative of our media not to explain the internal divisions in Ukraine. Not "sense" in a condoning way, but Putin's invasion makes much more sense when you realize HE thinks he has supporters on the Ukrainian side of the border...not unlike Hitler rolling into Austria and being greeted by garlands and flowers in 1938.
His support didn't materialize, but it better shows what motivated him to act in the first place. He might be a delusional "liberator", but he's not erratically insane. Thanks for your OP.
RememberTheDanny
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All-In [42023]
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Whosever scok you are...
Apr 5, 2022, 1:37 PM
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Take your long-winded posts that say pretty much nothing back to P&R where this ####### post belongs in the first place.
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