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Topic: How to talk to a christian
Replies: 122   Last Post: Aug 26, 2016, 8:49 AM by: flow0440
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Replies: 122  

How to talk to a christian

emoji_events [12]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 1:22 PM
 

- Sam Harris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKXZ8KuvY7E

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How to talk to an atheist

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Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 1:26 PM
 

.

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Re: How to talk to an atheist

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 1:55 PM
 

Well that's about as well thought out of an answer i've seen for christianity. So congrats.

Now, do you have an actual retort to the video or do you have no interest in debating people with whom you disagree?

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You post a video condescendingly titled "How to talk to a

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:06 PM
 

Christian", and expect people to debate you on its merits?

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Well, this is just his first time doing that....

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:23 PM
 

today (or is it even?).

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i don't get his beef

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:26 PM
 

you post a video making fun on christians, but can't take a joke yourself?

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Re: i don't get his beef

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:27 PM
 

Please tell me how this is a video making fun of christians any more than your posts are making fun of liberals?

It's an argument against a position, it is not "making fun" of christians. You are simply offended by the content is all.

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Don't be a ######...you posted it for a reaction and you got

[4]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:47 PM
 

one. You don't like it so you complain.

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Re: Don't be a ######...you posted it for a reaction and you got

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:55 PM
 

Let's say I posted something that was anti-trump; would it illicit a reaction? Sure but not like this.

Criticizing religion (at least christianity here) is taboo and is seen as wrong no matter what. It doesn't matter how good the argument is.

Case in point, there is not a single rebuttal to the arguments made in the video (as of right now).

Furthermore, why shouldn't they be called out for having a belief system this horrible? It's objectively morally wrong.

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Re: Don't be a ######...you posted it for a reaction and you got


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:58 PM
 

I'm still waiting for the rebuttals as well. And maybe this time, something i haven't already heard several hundred times.

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Here's a hint...Nobody watched the video

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:02 PM
 

They saw the title, rolled their eyes, and moved on. And then you go on to "call out" their belief system as being horrible and totally wrong, yet you want some sort of serious rebuttal? At that point, anyone who had any legitimate input is either mocking you, or out of the conversation.

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Re: Here's a hint...Nobody watched the video


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:08 PM
 

Again, same logic as posters with the hilldog/libtard stuff.

Doesn't receive the same response.

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Yes it does, I'm not sure I've ever seen a "libtard" thread

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:13 PM
 

as you'd like to call it, evolve into a thoughtful, reasonable debate. Have you?

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dude, it was a joke

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:49 PM
 

again, not sure why you gettin all riled up.

i didn't even give it 1 second of thought.

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Re: dude, it was a joke


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:53 PM
 

Where was I getting riled up? I simply responded to your post.

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Is Liberalism your religion?***


Posted: Aug 26, 2016, 8:34 AM
 



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Re: Is Liberalism your religion?***


Posted: Aug 26, 2016, 8:37 AM
 

Are you suggesting one's religion is above scrutiny?

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He's just looking for honest debate...

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:27 PM
 

so he doesn't have to keep starting NEW threads to make fun of Christians.

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Re: He's just looking for honest debate...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:37 PM
 

Just to be clear, you think this post is making fun of christians?

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the arguments within?

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Why in the ever-loving world would I want to debate my...

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:40 PM
 

religion with you?

And yes...it has a condescending tone to say the least.

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Re: Why in the ever-loving world would I want to debate my...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:45 PM
 

Honestly? I think you are intelligent enough to know you can't win that one. Not because of my intelligence by any stretch but because you realize that religion can't be intelligently defended.

You don't have to debate me, i'd just love to hear you rationalize the biblical god.

> And yes...it has a condescending tone to say the least.

Let me ask you this, should scientologists be mocked? What about pastafarians and/or any other obviously ridiculous ideologies?

Why shouldn't the terrible ideology of christianity be mocked exactly?

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I'm not trying to "win" anything. Religion isn't something..

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:49 PM
 

that you justify "intellectually". It's a matter of the heart/soul.

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And there it is.***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:56 PM
 



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Sigh....***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:57 PM
 



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Yawn...***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:59 PM
 



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And there it is...***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:59 PM
 



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haha


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:01 PM
 

"my beliefs can't be grounded in reason and or logic therefor you can't criticize them"

That's basically what you said... am I misinterpreting something?

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oh for Pete's sake...you're not that dense, right?...

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:08 PM
 

I never said "you can't criticize them". I said it's boring, repetitive, and pointless...and that you're not interested in honest debate as you purport to.

You're looking for a fight so hard you somehow read that as "you can't criticize my beliefs?"

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Re: oh for Pete's sake...you're not that dense, right?...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:11 PM
 

Are you responding to my post? because that's not what I said.

you totally just took my sentence out of context. You basically said your religion is outside the realm of logic and reason.

That's where I stop taking you seriously. I'm not into whimsical nonsense.

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I don't think it's insulting to be challenged

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:48 PM
 

And nor do I think he's attempting to insult.

It's an extension of the age old question juxtaposing a loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God and pain/evil/sadness.

It's not a new challenge, and I respect anyone who comes to a conclusion after truly thinking about it, but it doesn't shake my faith as I've made my peace with my answers to the argument.

But, in my estimation, its an argument that works as fodder for debate and discussion on a personal level and not a youtube blast into the ether where it will be ignored/seen as an attack by one side and applauded by the other.

I have no problem with it, but I see very little positive reactions possible to the initial argument that the in effect says "Your God allows babies to die and go to ####" and than (as happened in this very thread) frames any further discussion as "excuses".

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Re: I don't think it's insulting to be challenged


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:58 PM
 

Just to clarify a god that either allows or doesn't stop millions of children from dying horribly every year is good?

He either can't (which meeds he's impotent) or he won't (which makes him evil).

Also, please please note that I am not attacking or blaming God here. I am attacking the belief system. I don't think God is real and therefore how could he be blamed.

I'm attacking someone who is calling this ideology "good". If you call this good then i'm not sure how you could call something like the holocaust bad if you use this same logic.

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Good is relative.

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:13 PM
 

Not being omniscient, you have no way of knowing whether their life would have been worth living. There are much worse fates than death.

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Re: Good is relative.


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:19 PM
 

What a terrible argument.

If God himself calls murder a sin and then murders literally pretty much the whole world then at BEST there is a contradiction of what is good.

Furthermore, why create someone just to kill them before they live a crappy life? What kind of argument is that?

Why don't we just use our heads and see that we simply evolved in this universe and good/evil are just evolutionary by products. No silly logic needed; it makes perfect sense AND it's backed up by evidence.

Crazy I know!

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This sounds ridiculous to me, and I'm an atheist.

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:36 PM
 

"If God himself calls murder a sin and then murders literally pretty much the whole world then at BEST there is a contradiction of what is good."

Taken to it's logical conclusion, God "murders" all of humanity by allowing them to die.

It is a sin for a human being to take another human beings life because people cannot have perfect knowledge. A god CAN have perfect knowledge, and thus knows precisely when taking a life is the least harmful option. Surely you don't disagree that there are fates worse than death?

"Furthermore, why create someone just to kill them before they live a crappy life? What kind of argument is that?"

Is it better to never experience life at all? How would you know?

"Why don't we just use our heads and see that we simply evolved in this universe and good/evil are just evolutionary by products. No silly logic needed; it makes perfect sense AND it's backed up by evidence."

This is precisely the kind of snarky argument that only appeals to those who already agree with you. All a Christian hears in that statement is that they aren't using their heads, and their beliefs make no sense. This does not foster a healthy discussion.

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Re: This sounds ridiculous to me, and I'm an atheist.


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:45 PM
 

> Is it better to never experience life at all? How would you know?

Well... I can say for myself that I would rather not have lived than to be born into some place like pakistan and be brutally tortured and murdered at a young age...

I mean are you suggesting that we are incapable of knowing when something is right or wrong?

We aren't god and we can't think like him (if he should exist) so all we can use is the logic we have. I know I couldn't kill billions of my children or even live with myself knowing that a single one of them burned for ETERNITY in #### even if they were a freaking isis member.

The punishment simply doesn't fit the crime.

> This is precisely the kind of snarky argument that only appeals to those who already agree with you. All a Christian hears in that statement is that they aren't using their heads, and their beliefs make no sense. This does not foster a healthy discussion.

Yeah probably but that was directed towards you, not to christians at large.

For the record, I don't think religious people are stupid. I think the ideology they believe is. Just like I don't think a trump or hillary supporter is necessarily stupid, I just think their ideas are stupid.

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I'm saying you can't know

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:22 PM
 

whether existence is better or worse than non-existence, or what threshold of pain and suffering would make non-existence better than existence. You don't have that knowledge and can never have that knowledge. Perhaps the experience of having life cut short is an important lesson for the collective human consciousness to learn. Perhaps it takes many iterations of this lesson for it to sink in, much like you have to practice any skill multiple times. I realize I've diverged from Christian dogma and into a murkier territory, but my point is simply that you do not have perfect knowledge. You cannot honestly KNOW that it is better to never exist at all.

"I know I couldn't kill billions of my children or even live with myself knowing that a single one of them burned for ETERNITY in #### even if they were a freaking isis member."

As I mentioned up thread, a loving god of any kind is incompatible with the idea of eternal punishment.

"
Yeah probably but that was directed towards you, not to christians at large. "

You shouldn't be arguing to convince me. I'm already convinced.

Basically just two atheists pissing on each other's shoes at this point, so while I appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion and practice my devil's advocation, I think I'm done in this thread. I hope you make peace with the fact that until the day you die, people will disagree with you. It's okay for them to be wrong so long as they don't attempt to infringe on your right to be wrong.

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Re: I'm saying you can't know

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:26 PM
 

> Basically just two atheists pissing on each other's shoes at this point, so while I appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion and practice my devil's advocation, I think I'm done in this thread. I hope you make peace with the fact that until the day you die, people will disagree with you. It's okay for them to be wrong so long as they don't attempt to infringe on your right to be wrong.

Word; sounds good to me.

Regarding that last point though I am not under any delusion that people will suddenly think like i do or that religion will go away.

Just having a bit of fun on a religion board.

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Re: You post a video condescendingly titled "How to talk to a


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:27 PM
 

Yes, it's a well thought out discussion on the topic.

Should you expect me to debate the merits of the multiple "libtard" posts here everyday? What's with your double standard?

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Do you think I expect you to?***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:30 PM
 



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Re: Do you think I expect you to?***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:37 PM
 

I would expect you to point this out on those threads; thus the double standard.

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Do those OP's then go on to post something to the effect of:

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:57 PM
 

"Now, do you have an actual retort to the video or do you have no interest in debating people with whom you disagree?"

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Re: Do those OP's then go on to post something to the effect of:


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:59 PM
 

Actually yes i've seen that.

And what's wrong with that sentence exactly?

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Because you're feigning interest in dissenting opinions,

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:05 PM
 

when all you're really interested in is being snarky and mocking people's faith. It's clear by the stuff you post that you have no desire to have any sort of honest, open debate about religion, you just want to bash it. Which is fine, but don't try to play the "oh you just don't want to hear anything you don't agree with" card.

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Re: Because you're feigning interest in dissenting opinions,


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:12 PM
 

Lakebum,

Nobody on here wants an honest debate on the subject. I would love to hear an honest rebuttal to sam's statements but I won't get that.

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A discussion requires more than one participant...

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:33 PM
 

and, if the intent is to convince or convert, it's not well thought out at all. Most people who take their faith seriously consider God THE most important thing in their lives, perhaps behind their family. Telling them their god is evil, petty, and cruel will not open up a line of communication unless they are especially tolerant and patient AND you're open to having your opinion challenged.

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Re: A discussion requires more than one participant...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:39 PM
 

Sam isn't just saying God is cruel, in fact he's not saying God is cruel at all, he doesn't believe in him. He's attacking the implications of the christian theology.

I would agree with you if he came out and said christians are idiots and god is a jerk but that's the opposite of what happens.

if you can't use logic and reason to debate christians (or anyone of faith) then what exactly are you proposing?

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You can use logic and reason

emoji_events [6]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:48 PM
 

you just have to understand that your tone, as much as your words, will determine the response you receive.

"Sam isn't just saying God is cruel, in fact he's not saying God is cruel at all, he doesn't believe in him. He's attacking the implications of the christian theology."

This is just a cop out. If you're talking to a Christian, you need to understand their perspective to give yourself a chance of being heard (same in reverse, FWIW), and to a Christian God is, without a shadow of a doubt, a REAL, tangible being. It matters not at all that Sam doesn't believe in God and is talking about a theoretical. You're trying to argue with Christians as if they're already atheists.

"I would agree with you if he came out and said christians are idiots and god is a jerk but that's the opposite of what happens."

It took me many years to learn this, but regardless of your literal words, if that's what they hear, then that's what you have effectively said.


Here's how you talk to a Christian: "Hi, you believe in something I cannot grasp, can you please explain to me your reasons for believing and personal understanding of Christianity and God?"

And then, and this is the important part, you listen. And you don't listen to respond, you listen with the intent to understand. You don't jump down their throat at the first thing they say that you don't agree with, because you don't yet have the framework of understanding WHY it is their perspective is different from yours.

I've been where you are, and you're acting out of fear. Fear that you might be convinced if you give their reason any chance to set up in your mind without immediately offering a rebuttal. It doesn't work like that.

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ABSOLUTELY

[4]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:49 PM
 

"And then, and this is the important part, you listen. And you don't listen to respond, you listen with the intent to understand"

A lesson we all must learn, and be reminded of daily.

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Re: ABSOLUTELY


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:07 PM
 

Not when it's the same nonsense over and over. For example, I don't need endlessly hear out a flat-earther's position to dismiss his arguments. That's the exact same thing that is happening here.

I do not have a misunderstanding of why someone might believe in religion. I understand that it's comforting but there are no benefits to religion that can't be accomplished without it.

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I challenge that statement.

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:27 PM
 

What non-religious method is anywhere near as successful at promoting intact nuclear families, preventing destructive sexual practices (no, I'm not talking about teh gheys, but promiscuity has negative effects on both the individual and society), and promoting upstanding moral behavior to those without the inherent capacity to understand existential moral arguments?

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Re: I challenge that statement.


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:31 PM
 

To be clear, you are saying that religious families are:

- more intact
- less prone to STD
- morally superior

to their secular counterparts?


Regarding "sexual destructive-ness", abstinence is unequivocally less successfully then promiting safe-sex practices.

More intact? I'm will to see the evidence for that...

Morally superior? I'd say it's about the same at best.

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I'm saying religion has a better track record

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:47 PM
 

than any other method of instilling those beliefs in portions of the population.

Religious people often fall short of their ideals, but most at least agree that those things are important. Atheists and agnostics are MUCH more likely to believe the new age propaganda that sleeping around doesn't hurt anyone and strong woman don't need no man. These ideas, in my view, are destructive to both the individual and society.

You can find statistics to back up either point you wish to make. Atheists tend to have lower divorce rates, but is this because they have a better moral framework, or because religious practice also comes with some negative pressures, such as the pressure to marry young which often leads to divorce? Is it even possible to have both? I honestly don't have all the answers, I just see our society becoming more and more hedonistic and self-worshipping as we remove religion and replace it with nothing.



"Regarding "sexual destructive-ness", abstinence is unequivocally less successfully then promiting safe-sex practices."

Nope nope nope nope nope. Just wrong. Comprehensive sex education is more effective than *abstinence-only education*, because, again, people are imperfect. There is no reason that comprehensive sex education can't be accompanied by the social reinforcement that promiscuity is bad for your mental, physical and emotional health. Or that single-parent children are at-risk children by definition.

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Re: I'm saying religion has a better track record


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:51 PM
 

I'm not saying there isn't or never was a utility to religion. It has obviously been very successful. However, all religions are conflicting and therefore can't all accurately represent reality.

Therefore MOST religious people are wrong (i would wager all of them are). So at the very least it's statistically reasonable to rebuke religion on the basis of describing reality.

There is no evidence for anything supernatural and that is all I am saying. It's 2016 and we could so some really cool #### but we are stuck arguing about trump, hillary and religion. How lame.

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I'm arguing for its efficacy, not its accuracy.

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:09 PM
 

"However, all religions are conflicting and therefore can't all accurately represent reality. "

Do you believe it to be a coincidence that the most successful religions all contain admonishments of sexual deviancy and promote the family unit?

I think it's rather more likely that those ideas are important to building a healthy society, and thus cultures which attempted to follow those guidelines outlived (evolutionarily were more fit) those societies who tended towards hedonism.

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Re: I'm arguing for its efficacy, not its accuracy.


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:17 PM
 

> Do you believe it to be a coincidence that the most successful religions all contain admonishments of sexual deviancy and promote the family unit?

No of course not. I already stated there was some utility in religion. I'm just saying that religion is not necessary to accomplish those things now. We have other vehicles at our disposal.

> I think it's rather more likely that those ideas are important to building a healthy society, and thus cultures which attempted to follow those guidelines outlived (evolutionarily were more fit) those societies who tended towards hedonism.

No argument from me.

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Re: I'm arguing for its efficacy, not its accuracy.

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:24 PM
 

"We have other vehicles at our disposal."

What are they, and are they anywhere near as effective?

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Re: I'm arguing for its efficacy, not its accuracy.


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:28 PM
 

Science, logic and reason.

Even if they aren't as effective in the particular areas you mentioned they certainly don't have the downsides that religion do.

I'm not sure how policy based on sound logic and reason could be worse than those based on tradition.

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If it's less effective at training our...

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:32 PM
 

less mentally gifted members of society (Christ political correctness is wordy...I mean dumb #####, lots of people are ####### dumb), then I'd say it is worse.

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Re: You can use logic and reason


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:05 PM
 

> you just have to understand that your tone, as much as your words, will determine the response you receive.

Ok I get that, but why does my condescending post towards christians recieve this kind of response whereas the same "hillary lovers are libtards" does not?

I'd like an honest answer.

> I've been where you are, and you're acting out of fear. Fear that you might be convinced if you give their reason any chance to set up in your mind without immediately offering a rebuttal. It doesn't work like that.

There are some nuggets of wisdom in your post for sure but this part is utterly false. In fact it would be the opposite that is true.

I would immediately change my position if given ample evidence for christianity (or any other ideology). The arguments ALL boil down to either anecdotal personal evidence (which conveniently can't be proved) or that God is just "mysterious" and I must simply believe.

Basically to a christian God is great when he reduces your mortgage rate but he is mysterious when a tsunami wipes out an island full of people.

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Because Hillary Clinton isn't near and dear to anyone's

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:23 PM
 

heart. Nobody believes Hillary Clinton is the most important thing in their lives. Well, maybe in some gender studies department somewhere, but not on TigerNet.

"There are some nuggets of wisdom in your post for sure but this part is utterly false. In fact it would be the opposite that is true."

Sure, I could certainly be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time (third, if you're keeping count). You just sound a lot like I did during that phase of my life.

I don't really know what 'the opposite' would be though. Fear that you're wrong and missing the piece of the puzzle that will allow you to believe and escape damnation? Meh. Whether Christians will admit it or not, the idea of a loving god is not compatible with eternal damnation. The two things make no sense in the same sentence. If burning someone for eternity were an option for human beings to punish other human beings with, we would eventually come to condemn it as cruel and unusual. If a god exists, he is certainly not of lesser moral understanding than ourselves.

If a god exists, they have decided to test us by providing no solid evidence of their existence. Actually I think it's rather that any god great enough to create the universe does not concern himself over such petty matters as whether we worship him. He is almighty. He is without need or want. He either loves us unconditionally or views us as an amusing past time.

"Basically to a christian God is great when he reduces your mortgage rate but he is mysterious when a tsunami wipes out an island full of people."

To some Christians, perhaps. I really don't believe you've had enough good faith conversations with Christians to state this outright.

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Re: Because Hillary Clinton isn't near and dear to anyone's


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:27 PM
 

> To some Christians, perhaps. I really don't believe you've had enough good faith conversations with Christians to state this outright.

If being a christian for 20+ years doesn't qualify me as having enough good faith conversations with Christians then I don't know what does. I was a devout believer until just a few years ago.

I'm fully aware of the religion and the thought process. I was also fundamentalist young earth christian so i'm aware of how vehemently non-reasonable one can be.

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I noticed Harris' criticisms were aimed at literalists

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:49 PM
 

perhaps you are making a similar mistake, as literalists do not represent a very large percentage of Christians.

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Re: I noticed Harris' criticisms were aimed at literalists


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:52 PM
 

I guess i just don't understand the need to defend religion at all.

Agree to disagree.

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Re: How to talk to a christian


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:07 PM
 

You know "in order for there to be good, there has to be evil."

I still believe there was/is some type of a creator but i DON'T believe in the one from the Bible and i DONT believe he really cares for us.



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That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:09 PM
 



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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:11 PM
 

Which part? :)



I can't get over many parts of the bible, especially the hail part. A loving, caring God who "wants" a relationship with us, otherwise we go to hail. We love him or go to hail. Yet, people claim that's our "freewill?" bologna.

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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:29 PM
 

It's funny how in the threads where you seriously ask questions you never provide a rebuttal when someone answers....you just run to another thread and laugh about it.

Its strange....

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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:32 PM
 

I didn't start this thread, idiot.

And i can't respond to more than one thread?

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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:42 PM
 

Lol...I didn't say you did start the thread.

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You literally did, just one minute before this post....***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:49 PM
 



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Re: You literally did, just one minute before this post....***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:52 PM
 

That's ole jhop for ya

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Re: You literally did, just one minute before this post....***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:53 PM
 

That was in response to another post.....I didn't say he started this thread. I asked why he started threads asking a question, provided no response to the answers he got, and then in another thread jokes about the answers in got in the thread he started.

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Re: You literally did, just one minute before this post....***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:56 PM
 

Do not bear false witness.


I did respond several times in the other thread.

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Re: You literally did, just one minute before this post....***

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:02 PM
 

You respond but you don't get very deep....it's like you do it just to rile people up....aka trolling.

Just an observation, didn't mean to upset you.

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Re: You literally did, just one minute before this post....***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:04 PM
 

So, it went from "provided no response" to "responded but not deep." Either i didn't respond or i did.


Read the OP, I said i won't going to get into a pissing contest. I kept my word.

;)




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Say what?

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:53 PM
 

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=19864510

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Re: Say what?


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:57 PM
 

That was in response to this post.

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=19864414

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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:34 PM
 

Why would i provide a rebuttal? I mean, i got the exact answer i knew I'd get.

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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:41 PM
 

Then why start the thread?

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Re: That's at least somewhat rational.*****

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:49 PM
 

As i said, i got the answer i knew I'd get.


But, i did respond to the thread. But, i ended it because your inner big baby started throwing out downvotes.

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Your whole post.********

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:35 PM
 



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That's a loaded word

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:25 PM
 

"Excuses"

If someone were really desiring to talk about this, really trying to understand another person's faith/outlook (and in turn to have their's known and understood), then you cut off that possibility entirely in my estimation when you start pre-labeling any discussion of it as "excuses".

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Re: That's a loaded word


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:30 PM
 

Yeah, i agree, bad choice of words.

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More like How to make sure a Christian gets defensive

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:09 PM
 

and no progress towards understanding is made.

I think Harris has done some important work. I especially like that he is one of the few atheist philosophers that doesn't shy away from saying that Islam is the most pressing threat to freedom of conscience in the modern world, but this video doesn't teach you anything about how to communicate with a Christian in an honest, good-faith effort to understand one another.

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Re: More like How to make sure a Christian gets defensive


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:12 PM
 

Agreed here too.

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Agreed

[4]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:22 PM
 

It is the atheistic version of the same "discussion" logic presented (sadly) by many of my fellow Christians I've encountered over the years who seem to think that loaded arguments are the best means by which to converse with those who don't believe.

Good faith, open ended dialogue is the goal, or at least in my opinion should be the goal.

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Both sides make it their goal to convert others...

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:30 PM
 

and try to approach it like a debate that can be won. I've been guilty of this, so I'm not throwing stones, as it were. We'd all be a lot better off if the atheists would realize that it doesn't matter whether a bunch of people 'waste their time' in church and prayer, and Christians would realize that the relationship others have (or don't have) with God is between them and God.


While I still don't have any faith myself, I have come to believe that the church served multiple important roles in our society. Yes, they often overstepped their bounds IMO, and we should rightly fight back when they do, but we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We are/were so outraged by the illogical nature of religion that we didn't stop to think about what it provides to a society in terms of family structure and values that, while perhaps not 'politically correct,' undoubtedly lead to better outcomes and higher quality of life. We've neglected to replace that guidance with anything effective and now we have a bunch of new 'religions' that operate under the guise of social sciences. It's just a clusterf***.

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I, for the most part, agree

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:38 PM
 

I see zero problem with evangelism of a belief (or a lack of a belief/worldview). From a person of faith's outlook I see evangelism as a near necessity as we believe this is good news to be shared.

However, I am often saddened when I see that faith is being shared outside of any real intent to understand, love, and minister to folks regardless of where they are on a faith spectrum. The church (universal) has failed in this mission far too often, but I am glad to say I've seen portions of the body begin to understand this and truly attempt to minister to folks where they are without some overarching "goal" of "winning souls" jading that effort and resenting ulterior motives.

I, like you, have changed over my life a good bit in how I look at it all. I like to understand other folks. I like to discuss this stuff, but I understand there is no discussion owed to me and that folks can and should be left alone and be treated respectfully.

I've been guilty of not doing that in my life, and I am trying to reconcile the willingness and desire to share what I feel to be very good news, with the knowledge that I am called to love, respect, and minister to everyone equally.

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Re: I, for the most part, agree


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:47 PM
 

You're a Minister, @tiger_thom?

I've shared this on here a couple times but will again now: since we've moved here two years ago, we have had two little old lady Jehovah Witnesses who come by the house two times per month. Not one time have i heard judgement, not one time have i heard gossip, not one time have i heard any type slander from them. Not once have i felt like im being beat over the head.

Now, i don't agree with their belief system, but i do respect them because of their demeanor towards me and my family.

I have no issue with their brand of evangelism because of how they approach me.

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I am not, by profession, a minister

[3]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:52 PM
 

I've held that role a few times in different contexts (at least in how the word Minister is usually used).

But no, I'm a software engineer.

I do, however, believe I am called to minister to folks as part of living out the gospel.

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I understand your desire to share


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:58 PM
 

what you perceive as the most important news one can share. From our perspective, it comes off as just a little arrogant. Pretty much no atheist in western society has grown up without some kind of religious influence. To think that we haven't heard the word or that you, personally are going to be the one that gets through to us just never comes across right, even if we understand the intention is good.

I find atheism becomes less important to me with each passing day. It's no longer this large portion of my identity, it just is what I've come to believe is the most likely reality. So long as you're not trying to cut my head off, I don't need you to agree with me. ####, even if you're trying to cut my head off, I don't need you to agree with me, just agree that cutting my head off is a stupid idea.

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What exactly are you looking to discuss that you haven't....

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:22 PM
 

already discussed on here ad nauseam?

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Re: What exactly are you looking to discuss that you haven't....


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:36 PM
 

It's unbelievable that a post like this is met with these kinds of questions when the same BS is posted every day regarding trump/hillary and nobody ever changes their mind.

I think it's just a touchy subject...

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Nah...i think it has more to do with you being a broken...

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:38 PM
 

record on the subject.

And the Trump/Hillary comments are often met with disdain as well, but they're a little more topical/seasonal/current/interesting/scary as sheet.

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Re: Nah...i think it has more to do with you being a broken...

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:43 PM
 

Disagree; you criticize someone's religious beliefs without them getting offended.

There are many conflicting religions, thus most of them are wrong. It is not unreasonable to criticize religious beliefs.

I'm sorry it hurts your feelings.

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I know you want a fight, but it doesn't hurt my feelings....

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 2:47 PM
 

it's just boring as #### and you're doing your best to be an intellectual hack.

I would respect you more if you just blatantly posted "All Christians are stupid and illogical" instead of pretending to seek debate. You KNOW you're not changing your mind and you KNOW you're not going to change anyone else's on here. Plus, it's not entertaining. Hence my "what's the point" post.

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Re: I know you want a fight, but it doesn't hurt my feelings....


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:16 PM
 

Mmm that flow condescension.

If it's so boring, then kindly leave the thread. I didn't twist your arm.

Btw, you are one of the first to show up on any of my threads like this so i'd say you are being a bit of a hypocrite. Seems to keep your attention enough to spew your nonsense to me everytime.

> I would respect you more if you just blatantly posted "All Christians are stupid and illogical" instead of pretending to seek debate. You KNOW you're not changing your mind and you KNOW you're not going to change anyone else's on here. Plus, it's not entertaining. Hence my "what's the point" post.

Well yeah of course not. Not when people say #### like "my religion doesn't depend on logic or reason, it's faith and hope". You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

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ooookay...do you know any Christians that say...

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:23 PM
 

their beliefs are not based on "faith"? And if not...WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING???

Yes...I respond to some of your posts...I'm calling you out. I think you're a fraud just trying to stir stuff up. I've got every right to do that...just as you do to make your posts in the first place.

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Re: ooookay...do you know any Christians that say...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:35 PM
 

> Yes...I respond to some of your posts...I'm calling you out. I think you're a fraud just trying to stir stuff up. I've got every right to do that...just as you do to make your posts in the first place.

Sure, I didn't say otherwise. I said they must not be that boring if you show up to all of my "shows".

> heir beliefs are not based on "faith"? And if not...WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING???

I think you are missing the point...

Faith in and of itself is not a virtue (otherwise it's pretty hard to call out a jihadist now isn't it?). What other thing do you just have "faith" in in life? I'm not talking about needing absolute proof (e.g. your spouse loving you) I'm talking about heuristic common sense at the very least.

I think criticizing belief in something based on faith is exactly the thing we should be opposed to. If an idea can't be backed up with sound logic and reason it can and should be dismissed.

Your "faith" is not inert. It has huge consequences on society at large and it would be best that it goes away.

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wow***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:38 PM
 



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Re: wow***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:38 PM
 

Do you realize that you do that or is that just how you respond?

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I'm just trying to not to say something mean...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:53 PM
 

think it's best that i stop now.

You win. You're right. This statement is genius:

"Your "faith" is not inert. It has huge consequences on society at large and it would be best that it goes away. "

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I'm not really religious, so I don't have a dog in this

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:56 PM
 

fight...but when I see that post and this one in the same thread...It leads me to believe dareal has a strong tendency towards being an extremist.

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=19865029

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Re: I'm not really religious, so I don't have a dog in this

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:18 PM
 

oh boy.

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Kinda what it looks like from where I'm standing***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:21 PM
 



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Re: Kinda what it looks like from where I'm standing***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:21 PM
 

i feel like i just got rush limbaughed.

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I have no idea what that's supposed to mean***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:22 PM
 



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Re: I have no idea what that's supposed to mean***


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:25 PM
 

I wouldn't worry about it.

I just don't see how my current view would be viewed as extreme.

I think you would unequivocally be opposed to scientologist or muslims have a huge political influence in america and yet when I say the same thing about christians, i'm suddenly "extreme".

I'm not arguing that those religions are on equal footing in terms of how evil they are, clearly Islam is more violent and scientology appears to be getting there.

The point is none of them belong in our political systems. I shouldn't have to be affected by religious rules based on an ideology that is not grounded in reality.

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Whether you like it or not, our country was founded on

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:31 PM
 

christian principles. I don't like blue laws or things like that either, but we are far from a theocracy.

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Re: Whether you like it or not, our country was founded on


Posted: Aug 25, 2016, 6:44 AM
 

Sure, i'm not claiming we are a theocracy but neither was Iran until fairly recently.

I'm not claiming Trump is literally hitler or anything like that but you can see how people will rush to support an authoritarian leader.

It's not hard to imagine things changing pretty quickly; it's happened many times throughout history and it's not inconceivable for it to happen to america.

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Who are you to say that religion doesn't "belong in...

[1]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:59 PM
 

our system"? I don't think you're speaking towards not having a state sponsored church, but you seem to be saying that religion shouldn't be in our society and/or people in government should be religious and/or a person's religious beliefs shouldn't influence their political beliefs. If any of that is true, you stand at great odds with what this country was founded on and who it was founded by.

" I shouldn't have to be affected by religious rules based on an ideology that is not grounded in reality. "

Sounds like you ended up in the wrong country then.

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Re: Who are you to say that religion doesn't "belong in...


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 11:23 PM
 

I definitely am not for banning religion or freedom of religion. I mean ideally people wouldn't be religious.

I'm under no delusion that is anywhere near possible.

I'm just saying i don't want to live under a Christian theocracy any more than I would sharia law.

Also, this country was not founded on Christian principles the way the right likes to portray it. Sure to was founded on freedom of religion, and that's fine but this is not a "Christian" country and I think the founders would agree with that

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Why do you argue against things I didn't say?***


Posted: Aug 25, 2016, 9:28 AM
 



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Re: Why do you argue against things I didn't say?***


Posted: Aug 26, 2016, 8:37 AM
 

Not sure why I argue with you at all.

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I just assumed you were a masochist***


Posted: Aug 26, 2016, 8:49 AM
 



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Does said Christian drink?

[2]
Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:03 PM
 

Cause then I can talk to them like any other person.

Is said Christian opposed to drinking? Our conversation is done.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


The woman who married my granddad once told me that


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:12 PM
 

none of the Christians in Greenville drink.

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Re: The woman who married my granddad once told me that


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 3:13 PM
 

Which is funny because not only did Jesus make wine, he served it to people who were already drunk!

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He's got a great argument.


Posted: Aug 24, 2016, 4:32 PM
 

One that I'm not qualified to debate.

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"We establish no religion in this country, we mandate no belief. Nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate." ~Ronald Reagan


Re: He's got a great argument.


Posted: Aug 25, 2016, 6:46 AM
 

But you are intelligent enough to think for yourself no?

I'm sure someone pushing the quran on you wouldn't make you budge and you would surely question it. I'm not sure why you wouldn't question the bible.

If a human was allowing people to die by the millions needlessly every year, I think you would unequivocally call that bad behavior. Why does that suddenly not apply when it's written in an ancient book?

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I question the Bible all the time.


Posted: Aug 25, 2016, 9:47 AM
 

I would question your brain if you didn't have some doubt.

It's an on going battle, but in the end, it's a BELIEF.

And that's why it's called Faith.

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"We establish no religion in this country, we mandate no belief. Nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate." ~Ronald Reagan


I've only read parts of this thread, but it is identical to any religious discussion

[1]
Posted: Aug 25, 2016, 7:08 PM
 

Non-believer starts discussion. It's viewed as snarky by religious people. Non-believer continues to make reasonable observations. Religious people continue to get upset.

I don't get it. These questions are obviously uncomfortable, and they should be.

Atheists aren't unreasonable people. I am one, and I see the value of religion. However, it's not necessary. You can be a good person and have community without it. It's all bs, and Christians are sub-consciously aware of it. Church has turned into an ala-carte convenience store. There are no standards.

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Re: I've only read parts of this thread, but it is identical to any religious discussion


Posted: Aug 25, 2016, 8:05 PM
 

He does make reasonable observations but he presents them with a condescending tone and acts like none of the Christians on this board have ever thought about them.

The video brings up some good points but all of them have already been discussed repeatedly....there are logical explanations on every single one of them like on the video huntclub posted.

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