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YOUR BALANCE
Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.
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Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.


Apr 6, 2021, 12:18 PM

When Scott Drew was hired at Baylor in 2003, he took over a program in shambles. They had very little basketball history. They had some good seasons in the late 1940s and early 1950s, but only one NCAA Tournament appearance after that prior to Drew's hire.

Their success wasn't fast. But they were patient. Consider:

Baylor had a losing record his first four years.

In his fifth year, they made the NCAA Tournament and lost in the first round. In his sixth year, they missed the NCAA Tournament but made the NIT and did well there.

In his seventh year, they made the NCAA Tournament again, and made the Elite Eight. But the next year, they missed postseason play entirely. They have made the post season every year since (not including last year, of course).

From Drew's ninth season until now (his eighteenth season), they have made 7 NCAA Tournaments. Interestingly, after their Elite 8 appearance in 2011-2012, they didn't make it past the Sweet 16 until this year.

Their season this year was historic. Like Dabo, Drew took Baylor from a program with no recent success and made them a champion when most people thought it was impossible.

Also like Dabo, Drew has had a lot of great support from the administration and fans.

We can't ignore the tremendous effort Baylor has put into basketball since Drew was hired:

In 2004, Baylor updated the Ferrell Center with state-of-the-art locker rooms. In 2006, construction on the Whetsel Practice Facility was completed. Every few years since then, facility updates have occurred, such as new floors, state-of-the-art scoreboards, etc. Two key takeaways here:

1. Baylor invested in basketball before Drew even had a winning season. It was early in his tenure that the arena was upgraded and the practice facility was built.
2. Baylor has been intentional about consistently updating facilities. They didn't just build a new practice facility and pat themselves on the back for doing something nice for the basketball program once. They kept at it.

Baylor is continuing the facility upgrades. A few years ago it was announced that they would be building a new state-of-the-art arena. The price tag is $105 million. A large portion of this was from donations from fans/alumni.

Baylor's basketball success is very similar to our football success, in that they hired a great coach, but also provided him with everything he needs to be successful, and then some. He got the facilities he wanted and needed, he got the staff he desired, and he had consistent support from fans and the administration.

There are some great lessons here for our basketball program.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.


Apr 6, 2021, 12:22 PM

Get ready Judge. There are eyes and keyboards getting ready to destroy you. You know who they are.

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Re: Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.


Apr 6, 2021, 1:09 PM

And unlike Brownell, Drew coaches a style of basketball that is fun to watch, fun to play, and interesting to recruits.

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Re: Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.


Apr 6, 2021, 1:16 PM

The motion offense is fun to watch, though. The difference right now is that Clemson still hasn't been able to get basketball players. Baylor is not just a bunch of athletes. They have tremendous shooters and athletes.

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Fun to watch for opposing coaches certainly ...


Apr 9, 2021, 12:06 AM

Based upon predictability and a serial lack of energy and shooting skill sets. As for me, I went from being a big Clemson Hoops fan since 1979 to abandoning the boring style of play and Clemson Basketball completely by Brownell's 2nd year. If you look at Clemson's home attendance, despite our increasing enrollment and alum numbers, most are in agreement.

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You are greatly overstating the importance of


Apr 6, 2021, 3:42 PM [ in reply to Re: Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo. ]

style of play to recruits. I know that's one of your main talking points though, so don't let me stop you.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: You are greatly overstating the importance of


Apr 6, 2021, 5:32 PM

It's important to fans, which generates full bleachers, which brings excitement, which increases the level of interest of recruits. You really can't understand that?

And yes, of course it's also important to the player himself.

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Either fans want to support the team, or they don’t.


Apr 7, 2021, 10:34 PM

Priority number one for fans is winning.

Priority number two for fans is enjoying the game of basketball.

You keep talking about us playing a boring style. Since when is a team full of guys who play their tails off, make some nice plays, hit some three, and win a lot more than they lose considered boring?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Either fans want to support the team, or they don’t.


Apr 8, 2021, 11:27 AM

I really have to explain to you the difference in "watchability" of the very high quality basketball we saw from the Sweet-16 on compared to our style? Do you tune out every other team and think Clemson is doing something exciting?

"Play their tails off" - has nothing to do with excitement. My son plays his tail off. He's 3.
"Make some nice plays" - that statement has nothing to do with the STYLE of play. We make some absolutely awful plays too, by the way.
"Hit some threes" - what, do you just ignore the missed? We ranked 130 in the country in 3P%, 9th in the ACC. Our 2P% was 210th in the country (10th ACC). Our shooting is not good at all.

Individually, we did not have a single player in the top 10 in the conference in any of the key stat categories of scoring, rebounding, assists, FG%, blocks, or steals.

BORING

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I know why you don't consider Clemson basketball watchable.


Apr 8, 2021, 3:16 PM

It's because you aren't actually a Clemson basketball fan.

For actual fans, they show up to cheer for the team because the players represent Clemson. They appreciate the hard work that goes into it. They realize how hard it is to win.

And this year, they saw a team battle back from not one, but two COVID pauses. They saw a team with grit. They saw a team that tied the school record for most wins in a season against NCAA Tournament teams. They saw a team that won an overwhelming majority of its close games. They saw a team that was one of the best defensive teams in the nation. And they saw all of this from a team that played one of the nation's toughest schedules.

If someone can't get excited about that, then I would question their allegiance.

Maybe you should stick to playing video games or watching the NBA if you are so easily bored by Clemson basketball.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I know why you don't consider Clemson basketball watchable.


Apr 8, 2021, 3:22 PM

Good try. Wrong again, as usual.

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Just admit it, you aren't really a Clemson basketball fan.***


Apr 8, 2021, 3:23 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


With full respect Judge, your loyalty is not in question


Apr 9, 2021, 12:19 AM [ in reply to I know why you don't consider Clemson basketball watchable. ]

However, your propensity to subject former Clemson fans to "chalk on the blackboard" screechingly boring play and earnestly average coaching is in question. And it's OK to have a difference of opinion without calling fans' and alums' loyalty into question.

I'm with you on this one Bluejay, and I look forward to watching some games in a year or three when Brownell, an undisputed plodder and good guy, retires as an extremely wealthy man and shifts his loyalty on Day One to another school who writes him a check.

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The style of play isn't important to recruits? Surely...


Apr 6, 2021, 11:32 PM [ in reply to You are greatly overstating the importance of ]

...you already regret saying that (possibly before you even hit enter). My goodness.

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"When I was 6 my Mother let me have a kitten. It died. Don't send prayers, a TU is better." - tugalooriver circa 2022


Please try to read more carefully.


Apr 7, 2021, 12:56 PM

I didn't say that style of play isn't important to recruits. I said:

"You are greatly overstating the importance of style of play to recruits."

Obviously style of play matters to some degree, but it isn't a determining factor.

Recruits want to play where they have a chance to win and ultimately play professionally. If you look at the top recruits, the schools they choose vary significantly in how they play. The common denominators are that they are schools who prioritize basketball, who have great facilities, who have coaches who have shown that they can win, and who put players into professional basketball.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


He’s clueless. Just give him a TD and keep scrolling


Apr 7, 2021, 4:32 PM [ in reply to The style of play isn't important to recruits? Surely... ]

The more you people reply the more he posts.

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Please, tell everyone why you think I’m clueless.***


Apr 7, 2021, 10:35 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Then they better make room for another trophy in the case***


Apr 6, 2021, 1:14 PM



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I’ve lost count how many times I’ve asked this, and never received an answer:

1

Apr 6, 2021, 1:15 PM

What are some specific things the Clemson basketball program needs (specifically in facilities) in order to win more?

Give us some specific examples, please, of what the admin is depriving the program of.

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Re: I’ve lost count how many times I’ve asked this, and never received an answer:


Apr 6, 2021, 2:48 PM

Row86® said:

What are some specific things the Clemson basketball program needs (specifically in facilities) in order to win more?

Give us some specific examples, please, of what the admin is depriving the program of.




Perhaps if anyone thought your question was legit they would provide an answer...

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Wow.

1

Apr 6, 2021, 3:38 PM

Just....wow.

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Re: Wow.


Apr 6, 2021, 4:19 PM

Row86® said:

Just....wow.



Because it is clear you are trying to start an argument because you think you already know the answer. Unfortunately you are clueless or perhaps just stubborn or a combo of the two

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Asking a legitimate question is starting an argument?

1

Apr 6, 2021, 5:57 PM

Got it.

And when you don’t have an answer, you just say the question is stupid.

You are a special kind of special.

Hopefully some adults can chime in now?

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Re: Asking a legitimate question is starting an argument?


Apr 6, 2021, 6:38 PM

Row86® said:

Got it.

And when you don’t have an answer, you just say the question is stupid.

You are a special kind of special.

Hopefully some adults can chime in now?



Perhaps you should answer your own question. We have been bad for the most part of 110 years so what commitment have we shown to make players drive past schools with rich basketball traditions to play for Clemson? Hint: we could changes coaches but without other changes the new coach will either fail and get fired or take the first offer to leave as ours is not a top tier or destination job

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You do realize Littlejohn has been renovated twice in the...


Apr 6, 2021, 6:53 PM

last 20 years, correct? Including the last time only 5 years ago. 5 years ago people were saying, just wait till Brownell has the renovated coliseum. We are still waiting and players are jumping ship left and right.

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Re: You do realize Littlejohn has been renovated twice in the...


Apr 7, 2021, 8:47 AM


last 20 years, correct? Including the last time only 5 years ago. 5 years ago people were saying, just wait till Brownell has the renovated coliseum. We are still waiting and players are jumping ship left and right.




LJ was renovated then torn down as it was falling apart so we had no choice. Remember then TB was hired he stated we needed better facilities and everyone looked at DV and said our facilities were fine? He was not talking about fan facilities. Since then the Football program as spent ~ $100MM on player facilities. You may have seen pictures of the nap room, barbershop, slide, paw bistro, putt putt course, etc. We also have cutting edge weight room, wellness/rehab facility and the latest performance technology in the country. In football we decided to be great and put our money behind our goal.

Given our bleak history if we expect to be great in basketball we have to invest in it. Yes we have LJ which is good but I am talking about player facilities. We need to show recruits we are serious about winning. The alternative is to do what we have always done and hope for the best. Wash-Rinse-Repeat

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I think you just secretly gave your answer to my original question.

1

Apr 7, 2021, 8:55 AM

So...you think our basketball program would see significant improvements if we build them a nap room, barbershop, slide, paw bistro, and putt putt course?

Is that what they are waiting for?

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You'll have to forgive some of our casual fans here.


Apr 7, 2021, 12:04 PM [ in reply to Re: You do realize Littlejohn has been renovated twice in the... ]

They think the new basketball facilities from 5 years ago are worthy of a huge reward for the administration and fans for actually showing some attention to the basketball program.

You know, since we're a football school, basketball should be thankful to get any leftover scraps.

They don't understand that those facilities took us from bottom of the conference to mid-tier in the ACC, possibly top 1/3 to top 1/2. They weren't top-of-the-line basketball facilities, and they don't have magical powers to have us signing 5 star players with regularity.

Getting those types of players mean getting us on equal footing with the Duke, UNC, and Kentucky type schools. That takes continued facility enhancements, rabid fan support, and a unified message that Clemson is serious about basketball success.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Can you define these things, Judge? I’m seriously asking.

1

Apr 7, 2021, 12:37 PM

Exactly what facilities are needed for the basketball program to be more successful. Please list specific items.

What is “rabid fan support”?
If we’re serious about this, we need to break this down to an actionable plan for each fan... don’t we?
For example: I live 5 hours away. Is there a certain number of basketball games I need to be in attendance for each season?

Finally, what exactly would this “unified message” look like?
Any ideas?

Sincerely,
Casual Fan

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Re: Can you define these things, Judge? I’m seriously asking.


Apr 7, 2021, 1:49 PM

I will leave you with this - it is what VCU just added -

https://www.vmdo.com/vcu-basketball-development-center.html


For us, it isn't just matching what a mid-major is doing. We really need to be outspending the blue-bloods 3:1 if we even just want to even the playing field.

Oh and here is UVA... but they built this nearly 15 years ago
https://uvaathletics.exposure.co/firstclass-facilities


Don't get me wrong, we are on the right path but we are a decade late to the sales pitch.

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I’m still not seeing a list of specific items that I can forward to admin.

1

Apr 7, 2021, 2:45 PM

Do they need little light-up thingies around their lockers? Are we talking about stuff like that?

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Re: I’m still not seeing a list of specific items that I can forward to admin.


Apr 7, 2021, 5:29 PM

Do we need a slide in our football facility? Will having one on a punch list make Duke a football power?

It is beyond just a "list of things" which sounds like the coot's football program. Rather is is about making both the program "special" in the eyes of the Clemson/University community and being values.

Prior to 2015, it is quite apparent that Clemson far, FAR behind on the facility side. Previously Littlejohn was almost condemned. Even with OP is was lacking, and far behind the athletic arms race (compare that to football that was ahead of the curve but needed Tommy Bowden to really build that side).

Right now, we are at lest as a decent facility spot but we are no where near great. At least it is not dead weight. But lets be frank, UVA was willing to double (really nearly triple in todays money)

And even it is more than just that - you really have to triple-down on that investment and be willing to go above and beyond what UNC would be willing to invest. Even then, that spending might not yield benefits that we seek because we have 100 years of basketball ambivalence.

But that is the issue to - it becomes a chicken/egg issue. You really need good facilities for a good coach to produce great results. You can't just wave a wand, get "the coach" because you have both the Wakes and the NC States burning through coaches and failing. I think we are on the right path. A good coach, now with good facilities and we are going "good" (not great yet) but getting better. We need to avoid the "coot trap" by thinking we can just hire someone to win. It never works. You need to build the program and for the first time is a very long time I think the program is expanding.

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Excellent post! This x1000!***


Apr 7, 2021, 10:37 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Time will tell. I hope his post is accurate.

1

Apr 8, 2021, 1:29 PM

Hopefully we are on the right path, and maybe that will become evident soon.
Unfortunately, it’s hard to see how we don’t have a down year next season. That won’t help. Maybe some magic will happen, though. We’ll see.

But I’m in support of anyone who says “we’ve got everything we need...just stay the course.” I’ll buy into that.

The frustrating thing to me is the complaints that the admin deprives the program of things they need, but can never say what is missing.

Imagine if Brad goes to the AD, and the conversation goes like this:

Brad: “There are some things we really need in this program before we can really turn the corner.”

DRad: “What do you need?”

Brad: “Well I don’t really know. I just want us to feel special.”


Yeah, it doesn’t work that way in any organization.

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Re: Time will tell. I hope his post is accurate.


Apr 8, 2021, 3:26 PM

What Brad needs and what is communicated between him and DRad is their decisions. I don't know which finer points but I am glad they turned down that ADIDAS money. For us, the alum/fan perspectives. My guess it has been both more facilities resources and more assistant resources.

How about this - the biggest cheer in Littlejohn the year we made the sweet sixteen was when the football team announcing Kelly Bryan and the newly crowned ACC champs during halftime at the UNC Asheville game. I mean, you are not going to be at the UNC Asheville game unless you are a focused basketball supporter or just there for the cheap tix, but the football team got a roaring ovation over one of our all-time best basketball teams. You can't put that on a punch list.

THAT is what I mean about "valued and special".

Plus Brad and Drad are not looking at what they need to turn the corner, they are actually in the corner and getting the pedal down. Now we see if the suspension and tires hold.

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If you can't see the improvement over the last 5 years


Apr 7, 2021, 11:59 AM [ in reply to You do realize Littlejohn has been renovated twice in the... ]

I don't know what to tell you.

Two NCAA Tournament appearances, including a Sweet 16. Two finishes in the top 5 of a 15-team league. A top 25 recruiting class.

It's obvious that our program is improving. The point is that to continue to improve, we must continue to enhance the program.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


People on here constantly say there is something missing

1

Apr 6, 2021, 9:29 PM [ in reply to Re: Asking a legitimate question is starting an argument? ]

from the facilities, and something the admin refuses to provide.

What is it, specifically???

(I’m not really asking you, jstone. You’re obviously not capable. But maybe someone else reading this thread can help out.)

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I thought the same last night...


Apr 6, 2021, 1:17 PM

seems like a good guy too.

As a response to your last line on the lessons for our program....I dont feel like Baylor is doing something we aren't in terms of facilities, initial support, etc. Baylor wins bc of Scott Drew. They did give him the resources but unless I've missed something...we have continued to invest in basketball and Littlejohn many times over. Facilities dont have as much to do with it in basketball as they do football.

Besides, have you seen the makeup of their roster...Baylor's fan support and facilities didn't get those kids..it was all Scott Drew and his ability to coach. Here is a quick breakdown of their best guys and starters:

Butler was a 4 star with some ok offers...pretty similar to our guys
Mitchell was a transfer from Auburn who Brownell recruited but never offered
Flagler transferred from Presby
Teague went to UNC Asheville
Mayer is a TX native
Vital - who starts - had 2 college offers
Thamba was an unranked 3 star with a few offers
The other big guy transferred from UNLV

Im all for giving Brownell a fair shake but dont point the fingers at the Clemson Administration like they need to send a team down there to "see how they did it"...because what they'll find is they need to just get a better coach. The fan support is there when its warranted...people are just apathetic right now to it all.

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I will absolutely point fingers at Clemson's administration


Apr 6, 2021, 3:57 PM

because their neglect of our basketball program for most of our 100-plus years of existence has hurt us greatly.

It used to be this cute little joke at Clemson that we are all about football and that basketball was not important. Frank Howard, as great of a guy as he was, did significant harm to our basketball program while he was the head football coach and then athletic director. You can't neglect a program for decades, and then decide to throw some scraps at it on occasion, and then complain that we aren't better. There is still an element of that today, though thankfully it is less so within the administration. It's still quite prevalent among many of our fans though.

Littlejohn was over 30 years old when the renovations occurred during Shyatt's tenure. That gave a nice facelift to the public-facing aspect of Littlejohn, but added little in terms of player and staff needs. As I'm sure you know, the practice facility wasn't even a full court gym, and wasn't nearly enough for both men's and women's teams to share.

The renovation a few years ago was initially going to be a full rebuild, but Clemson decided to spend less and do a renovation rather than new construction. Make no mistake, Clemson's administration did a big thing with the Littlejohn renovation and facility additions. That was huge for Clemson basketball, and much needed. But let's not act like the current facilities are as good as they could have (and arguably should have) been. They don't stand out above dozens of other schools' facilities, or give us the right to pat ourselves on the back for supporting basketball for once.

Baylor has made significantly more facility investments than we have over the last 15 or so years. They also made these investments before Drew began winning. As expected, their return on that investment wasn't immediate. But they were patient, and the success came.

We are also starting to see more success as a result of our facility investments. We must keep at it, and not let it be another 15-20 years before we make more facility improvements.

You said that facilities matter a lot more in football than they do in basketball. I disagree. In basketball, especially at a school like Clemson that isn't known for basketball, those facilities cause recruits to look twice at a football school like ours. It shows recruits that we are serious about basketball. We must overcome a history of basketball ineptitude for most of our existence. It's a huge deal for us if we want to be really successful.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I was wondering when someone would finally realize...


Apr 6, 2021, 4:09 PM

Frank Howard is the problem with Clemson Basketball in 2021.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


No one said that.


Apr 6, 2021, 4:48 PM

HTH.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Good...


Apr 6, 2021, 5:13 PM

because I think it would have been a stretch to blame Howard, who hasn’t been a football coach or AD in 50 years, for today’s basketball problems. Especially since Littlejohn was built during Howard’s tenure as AD, at a cost of 8 million dollars, equivalent to almost $60 million today. Seems like he should be applauded. In comparison, Memorial Stadium cost $125,000, 2.4 million today, just 25 years earlier. Pretty significant difference, with basketball having the advantage. Also, considering soccer has overcome similar obstacles as basketball at Clemson, yet has won multiple national championships, I don’t know, seemed odd, that’s all. Glad I misread.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


you did.


Apr 6, 2021, 5:26 PM [ in reply to No one said that. ]

and this answers the question (for any of the toolbags that try defend you. you know who you are) as to the why.

odd - did not realize coach howard had that power. thank god he didn’t destroy softball, baseball, soccer, or golf.

you recognize what the 2nd highest revenue sport is in collegiate athletics - don’t you?? drad will not hold onto his timeouts, when it comes to business.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


The issue I have with JK isn’t his support of Clemson...


Apr 6, 2021, 5:32 PM

basketball, as he may or may not believe, the problem is he habitually uses misleading information, or outright fabrications, to make his points. Credibility is a hard thing to get back once lost.




2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-francismarion.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: The problem with JK isn’t his support of Clemson...


Apr 6, 2021, 5:40 PM

it’s mind bottling
yet, true

your credibility score just increased.
you passed balm on the pie chart. nice.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: The issue many have with JK isn’t his support of Clemson...


Apr 6, 2021, 6:02 PM [ in reply to The issue I have with JK isn’t his support of Clemson... ]

It's an obsession. His profile picture is Brownell in his college basketball uniform. Who does that?

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I'm not obsessed at all


Apr 7, 2021, 1:01 PM

I just like to annoy fans like you who seek to undermine our basketball program.

Every time you see one of my posts, you have to look at a picture of a coach you have an unhealthy disgust for. It makes me laugh.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I'm not obsessed at all


Apr 7, 2021, 1:14 PM

You are constantly, consistently wrong. And yes, you are obsessed. It's ridiculous.

Expecting improvements and better coaching is not "undermining the basketball program". Get a grip.

I don't have any "disgust" for Brownell, I think he's a fine person and runs a clean program. His defensive game is top notch. However, there is a lack of improvement and adjustment to improve the product on the court. I've been pretty clear that I don't think he's getting it done, we are boring, and we just need a general change of leadership and culture to take the next step.


Your awful comprehension skills are showing, again.

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The fact that you can't recognize the accomplishments


Apr 7, 2021, 1:24 PM

that an NCAA Tournament appearance and a finish in the top third of the ACC are for Clemson basketball speaks volumes.

To refresh your memory, we have only played in the NCAA Tournament 12 times at Clemson. EVER. Brownell has 3 of those.

We have only finished in the top third of the ACC 10 times in our history (and technically, it's 8, but I went ahead and counted a top 3 finish in an 8 team league as top third). Brad has two of those top third finishes.

Rather than realizing those accomplishments and seeing that they represent progress toward our ultimate goal, you consistently tear them down.

"The ACC is weak this year."
"The ACC isn't what it used to be."
"We don't recruit well enough."
"Those early season wins happened too long ago."
"Brownell can't coach offense."

How are those comments helping Clemson basketball?

If you want to go in a different direction, that's your right. I understand why people might be ready for a change. But please don't act like what we accomplished this season isn't significant in the grand scheme of Clemson basketball, because it is.

And if you want to see Clemson making Final Fours and winning ACC Championships, please understand that simply hiring a new coach isn't likely to be the answer.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: The fact that you can't recognize the accomplishments


Apr 7, 2021, 1:50 PM

Again, regurgitation of the wrong response. Being happy with improvement on a poor history is complacent acceptance of mediocrity. That is who you are.

I'm expecting more. Being better than terrible is not enough.

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My response is only "wrong" because you have ridiculous


Apr 7, 2021, 2:41 PM

standards at this point.

Big goals are fine, but being disappointed if those big goals aren't reached right now is crazy.

It sounds like you would have considered this year a failure if we didn't win a national championship. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

You don't have to worry that I accept mediocrity. I assure you that my goals for our basketball program are just as high as yours, if not higher. But I realize that improving our program from the depths of the ACC is a process.

If you want better for Clemson basketball, then tell everyone who will listen that Clemson needs elite facilities, not just better. Make it known that Clemson needs a higher budget for assistant coaches and support staff. Tell them that Clemson needs to have the best basketball fans, not just decent ones. Be willing to prioritize basketball's needs over football's wants on occasion. Then see what our coach can do. Only then will you know how he compares to other coaches you think are outstanding.

Blaming the coach when he's still fighting an uphill battle is simplistic and, to be honest, ignorant.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: My response is only "wrong" because you have ridiculous


Apr 7, 2021, 3:00 PM

"right now"

You have got to be kidding. "Right now"...how about 11 years???

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Saying that Clemson neglected basketball during the Frank


Apr 7, 2021, 12:59 PM [ in reply to The issue I have with JK isn’t his support of Clemson... ]

Howard era is neither misleading nor a fabrication.

If you can't see that Clemson's poor decisions when it comes to basketball (during that era as well as most others) is a significant reason why we have the poor basketball history that we do, I am curious to know why you think we are historically the worst program in the ACC.

Hint: saying we're a rural school or saying we're just victims of bad luck are not correct answers.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Littlejohn was built during the Howard AD era...


Apr 7, 2021, 1:33 PM

correct?

Littlejohn cost nearly 60 million in today's dollars to build, correct?

Memorial Stadium cost less than 3 million in today's dollars to build, correct?

All Memorial Stadium upgrades after 1941 were based on demand, correct?

Football has won multiple national championships since then, correct?

Soccer got a hand me down stadium, correct?

Soccer has won multiple national championships since then, correct?

Yet Frank Howard sabotaged basketball, and not the other two?

Winners, in sports and in life, look for reasons they can, not reasons they can't. Be a winner.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Do you know the main reason why Littlejohn was built?


Apr 7, 2021, 1:44 PM

If you think the main reason was because the leadership at Clemson felt that we needed a better facility for our basketball team, you would be incorrect.

The main reason was because Clemson needed a larger venue for concerts and other non-basketball events. The university wanted to host more events, and needed a larger space to do so.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I'll play...


Apr 7, 2021, 1:48 PM

even though it's an absurd argument you are attempting to make...

The soccer stadium was not built for soccer, correct? Soccer overcame, correct?




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


This is one of your worst arguments.


Apr 7, 2021, 2:47 PM

Soccer inherited a great stadium, which at the time was much better than most soccer programs had. It didn't have anything to overcome from a facility standpoint.

Plus, soccer became a powerhouse because we had a coach who capitalized on soccer's relative lack of popularity in the United States at the time. He brought in a lot of foreign players who grew up playing soccer at a higher level than many youths did here.

If our basketball had inherited Littlejohn decades earlier, when it would have stood out as a great facility, and we were decades ahead in recognizing basketball's popularity before it truly occurred, then you might have a point about Littlejohn.

You can edit your post, and I suggest you do so. Yikes.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


So soccer got a hand-me-down stadium...


Apr 7, 2021, 2:48 PM

and basketball got a brand new stadium, which cost more than the football stadium at the time, but soccer and football had an advantage because Clemson built Littlejohn not only for basketball, but for other events too. Soccer also had an advantage, because it wasn't popular.

I think I'm beginning to see where you're coming from. Keep em coming, I'm taking notes.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: So soccer got a hand me down stadium...


Apr 7, 2021, 3:11 PM

That's probably why The Rolling Stones AND Pink Floyd refused to step foot in Clemson to play concerts.

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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Re: So soccer got a hand-me-down stadium...


Apr 8, 2021, 12:10 PM [ in reply to So soccer got a hand-me-down stadium... ]

I will post about soccer...prior to the 1980s "other schools" that normally did not have any other "major sport" was invested in soccer. It was an odd, outlier. You did not have the "major" schools in the pot.

You had Saint Louis, Southern Illinois, Alabama A&M, SFU, a bunch of Northeaster Privates like Harwick or Bridgeport - those smaller schools dominated the first 20 years of the sport. I know Davidson in NC was a surprising power in the soccer world back in the day because they invested early.

Around the 70s, bigger schools and even medium-sized schools realized they had the resources to push out (basically buy the pot) in Soccer and you had early "majors" Soccer adopters with the "right coach" start winning. While it was not overnight, it took about 10 years. You saw Clemson adopt early - but also lucked out with Ibrahim. I mean, go find a graduate student earning their PhD in Chemistry that can coach a soccer team to a national power. So by the 1980s Indiana, Clemson, UCLA, Virginia and the like started pushing out the StLouis, Southern Illinois, etc. UNC did the same thing for the womens side and why they built a dynasty - they outspent everyone around to make the best program early. Other programs treated soccer as a player dump for other programs. For example, my father was a basketball scholarship at a D1 school, he was told to join the soccer team for "conditioning" and since he was "basketball" they put hiim in goal. Did well, but that was a bottom level soccer team back then. Heck, they did not have a hand-me-down field, Riggs would have been a huge upgrade for him.

Speaking about "dump program" I think that is part of the Clemson basketball program as it was the "assistant football coach" dumping ground for 50 years. That is how they boosted assistant coach income. However, after 50 years, the damage was done. Basketball was a "dump program" and then you had generations of the basketball world knowing that basketball was a second tier sport at Clemson... and still is.

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Thank you for this helpful information.


Apr 8, 2021, 12:52 PM

Hopefully Francis Marion® and others will read it and learn something.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Please provide a list of those "others"


Apr 8, 2021, 4:53 PM

and what exactly it is that you think they should learn.

TIA

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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


That is great information...


Apr 8, 2021, 1:34 PM [ in reply to Re: So soccer got a hand-me-down stadium... ]

That has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

JK suggested Frank Howard advanced football at the expense of basketball while a coach and AD, and basketball only received “scraps”. The truth is, Littlejohn was built during his tenure and was a huge financial commitment, 60 million worth of “scraps” in today’s money. But, even if the basketball team hadn’t received a brand new facility, it’s still possible to win championships, see our soccer program as a prime example. It can be done with the right people, a point you made very well.

Did football get more attention historically, absolutely. Was it good economics, absolutely. Is Frank Howard better at economics than JK, apparently. Was basketball neglected to the point they were surviving on “scraps”, no.

And please remember, I’m not anti CBB, I think he should get at least one more year, which is exactly what I said last year. He’s a good coach, not great, but certainly good. There are lots of positives. I am, however, anti false/misleading information. JK does that with frequency for no apparent reason as it certainly doesn’t help CBB’s case.

It doesn’t take a genius to do the research, there’s mountains of good information out there. Too much good information to accept being fed nonsense.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: That is great information...


Apr 8, 2021, 2:57 PM

Well, lets twist the basketball item around then...

Our soccer program is strong because we "got in" as a major school at an early date. We soccer expanded within the American 'awareness", Clemson had already nab that accomplishment of being a power, close to a decade of ACC championships in the 70s. We were very fortunately we had a faculty member that was a HOF soccer coach. That is beyond rare. In football, we invested early, hire ol' Heisman and continued to pursue the sport whole-heatedly for decades. We were not the "top tier" program yet, but we were hungry and kept building until we had the resources to combat those like GT. We were always punching above our weight and willing to basically put our money where our mouth was. When did we hire a basketball coach? 1956 (i think) - that was 50 years too late. UNC already had 10 banners to our one. They had one of those "per-tourneyment Nation Championship". Shoot they followed it up with another NC the following year. Other schools like Syracuse, Kansas (multiple), Kentucky (multiple), Indiana (multiple), Wisconsin, Georgetown, etc all won or had great runs BEFORE we hired Press. Even "mid major" schools like Loyola Chicago won it all early-ish.

Now, in an alternative universe where we found a Basketball Ibrahim in 1915 or if we hire a fulltime basketball coach that then moonlighted as a football coach in the 1920s, maybe it would have been different. But basketball has been a back-burner sport for us. Sure, we don't want to lose but if we had a dollar to spend on football or a dollar to spend on basketball, well it is going to football.And no, I don't think Clemson would care about Soccer if it wasn't for Ibrahim winning titles early and often. You can just find those types of success.

It all comes down to finite resources. Basketball does get invested in but it is often only a moderate amount (compared to scale) done infrequently. 60 million of "scraps" in todays money is only 1/3 of what UVA invested in today's money JPJ Arena. Scraps is relative. For a Power conference that specializes on basketball - yeah, it is "scraps" - but that is relative. We support it on a good mid-major level. That being said, UVA invests in a lot of other sports heavily - wins a lot of the non-majors. Mostly because why should it waste money on football? Lol. Even George Welsh could not completely change the program.

But lets look at it another way. UNC had Woolen back in the 40s for about 40 million today, then UNC modified Carmich form woolen in the 60s about 45 million and then turned around and built the Dean Dome in the 80s for 80 million. It was both renovated and expanded in the early 90s, 2000s, 2010s, and just a few years ago. We have had exactly two refreshes in the early 2000s and a few years ago. UNC has not only had many multiple refreshed and expansions since Littlejohn open for their own facility, they built two facilities to our one. They are literally doubling on their main venue investment. Now, if you compare Memorial Stadium to Kenan, the tales reverse. Considering the size/scale/finances difference between UNC and Clemson, the fact that Clemson was both matching and outdoing UNC in facilities should show us the focus we had on football. Heck UNC was trying to be a football school during our national rise.

Right, wrong, or indifferent - we invested in football and not really on basketball. It showed. I don't fault anyone but if we want to build basketball, it takes a steady tradition of being better than our resources allowed and hopefully that ROI leads to future investment.

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Great points about UNC...


Apr 8, 2021, 3:33 PM

Did you know that with all that investment, UNC football still made more than UNC basketball? A lot more. And UNC football is no where near the top in football revenue.

"(UNC)Football’s $49.6 million in total operating revenue topped men's basketball by $23.4 million and represented 44.9 percent of the athletic department’s total revenue in 2018-19..."

https://247sports.com/college/north-carolina/Article/UNC-Football-Generated-Record-Revenue-in-2019-20-Tar-Heels-Mack-Brown--160972734/#:~:text=Football
's%20%2449.6%20million%20in%20total,the%20school's%2026%20other%20sports%2C

Care to guess how much revenue Duke's basketball and football programs made? Almost identical... 25,600,000 for basketball and $25,300,000 for football.

And despite what JK would have you believe, Clemson basketball does not generate a profit. Men's basketball clears about 1.4 million per year, but as a whole, Clemson basketball loses nearly 2 million. Men's basketball can't even take care of what happens inside of Littlejohn, but JK would have you believe they are on par with football and help keep other programs afloat.

So, could Clemson spend more on basketball, absolutely. Has basketball been left with "scraps" to feed on, no. Does it make financial sense to divert money from football to basketball, sure, send some, but don't expect it to pay the bills. The bottom line is football is more profitable than the next 35 college sports, combined. Clemson football brings in over 61 million and we aren't even sniffing the revenue ceiling...

Power 5 — Top 15
1. Texas — $156 million
2. Georgia — $123 million
3. Michigan — $122 million
4. Notre Dame — $116 million
5. Ohio State — $115 million
6. Penn State — $100 million
7. Auburn — $95 million
8. Oklahoma — $94.8 million
9. Alabama — $94.6 million
10. Nebraska — $94.3 million
11. LSU — $92 million
12. Tennessee — $91 million
13. Wisconsin — $90 million
14. Florida — $85 million
15. Washington — $84 million

But UNC and DUKE, both top 8 revenue producers nationally...

Kentucky (SEC) - $56.0.
Louisville (ACC) - $53.6.
Indiana (Big Ten) - $37.5.
Duke (ACC) - $35.4.
Kansas (Big 12) - $34.1.
Syracuse (ACC) - $31.9.
Ohio State (Big Ten) - $30.1.
North Carolina (ACC) - $29.9.

Can barely out perform their football programs, which are both historically bad. And in UNC's case, basketball can't out perform football.

You invest where you have the biggest opportunity for return. That's economics. But just because we invest more heavily where the most revenue/notoriety for the school is to be gained doesn't mean everyone else gets "scraps", that's ridiculous. Do like our soccer team, our football program, and tons of other successful programs in all sports across the country have done in the past, suit up and go get it. Nobody wants to hear lame reasons why you can't.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Please stop posting misleading things about what


Apr 8, 2021, 3:38 PM

I have posted.

Thank you.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Great points about UNC...


Apr 8, 2021, 4:04 PM [ in reply to Great points about UNC... ]

Now show me the % of athletic budget spent on each sport as well as the income. Because that is the other issue. Clemson brings in 50 mill from the football revenue but also 44 mill from donations. Actually donations drive the sports. Football brings in both more money but is also much more expensive to operate. Look at the scholarship cost alone. It isn't 1:1. There is a reason why there are 350 basketball programs in D1 but only about 130 in football. At the end of the day, Clemson brings in 133 million and spend 131 million -ranks about 23rd. We are in a boon era now but we can quite bank on that all the time.

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Sure...


Apr 8, 2021, 4:25 PM

Here are all the numbers...
https://clemsontigers.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/EADA-file-1.pdf

Have a look. Again, I'm not anti-CBB or basketball, but the facts are the facts. It's just when people whine about something that is so easy to understand, so basic, it's confusing for people as smart as me and you.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: Sure...


Apr 8, 2021, 5:17 PM

But that is odd and how things are muddled...


I see different reporting on expenses, especially "other". USAToday's broad expenses say we are spending more. I wonder why. The non "other" does match closely with what you posted.

Year Coaching / Staff Scholarships Facilities / Overhead Other Total Expenses
2019 $50,531,885 $17,623,262 $15,596,204 $48,227,162 $131,978,513


But still, football is 64% of our budget without "other" or 42% with other via USAToday. Basketball is 10% without other or 6% with other.

In comparison, another source (and this is using 2017 data, so note the shift)

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2019/09/mirror-mirror-on-the-wall-who-spends-the-most-on-athletics-of-all/


"In 2017, Clemson spent over $46 million, or 42 percent of its $110 million athletic budget, on football. Duke led the way in men’s basketball spending nearly $21 million, or over 19 percent of its $109 million athletic budget, on its most-acclaimed sport. The other “big players” are “big spenders” too."

So Duke spends nearly 20% on basketball and we spend 6% - and we have the bigger budget.v I don't have UNC's but I think it was about on par with Duke's so I would not be surprised if they are spending 15-20% of their athletic budget on their basketball program.

Also note, that in previous years, UNC basketball normally brought in more than football but that is when they were better in basketball and worse in football. That was baout 2-3 year ago. https://247sports.com/college/north-carolina/Article/Carolina-Athletics-Suffered-Financial-Shortfall-in-2018-19-UNC-Tar-Heels--146841152/

I think our basketball team made 9 million, spent 8 mil. UNC had a surplus from basketball of 24 million pandemic.

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Agree...


Apr 8, 2021, 5:51 PM

Numbers seem to vary per source, but one thing that is constant is football has more revenue potential. Some schools are able to buck the trend, but very few, so it makes sense that the investment follows the source of largest returns.

In the end, we are all Clemson fans, and the point is certainly not to turn against ourselves. Football, basketball, baseball, softball, I pull for them all. But who likes for their intelligence to be insulted constantly with nonsense and half truths? It gets tiresome.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


I haven't posted false or misleading information and you


Apr 8, 2021, 3:19 PM [ in reply to That is great information... ]

know it.

I'm sorry if it doesn't line up with what you believe or want to hear.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I'd love to address this...


Apr 8, 2021, 4:13 PM

11/10/2019:
Your Post: You congratulated our team on beating Colgate, a team "considered by some to be the best mid-major team in the country this year."
Facts: Not one rating service had Colgate as the number one mid-major team that season.

03/08/2020:
Your Post: You thanked our players and team for a great season finishing 8th out of 15 in the regular season ACC standings. You, in error, claimed GT finishing at #5 didn't count.
Facts: We finished 9th in the ACC regular season standings. Per the official ACC site, their 5th place finish did count in the regular season.

04/15/2020:
Your Post: Harvey Grant is not a "Clemson alumnus".
Facts: He is.


03/10/2021:
Your Post: The first round game of the ACC Tournament was the least important game of the season.
Facts: No tournament game is the least important game of the season.

The past few days you have mentioned Frank Howard is partly to blame for our current shortcomings and basketball was given "scraps". Not true. While football gets most of the attention, basketball hasn't been getting by on scraps. The investment in Littlejohn in the 60's and again today is evidence of that.


You've also mentioned CBB is the winningest coach in Clemson basketball history, but failed to mention he is also the losingest coach. You had to know people would point that out, it was almost criminal to hang CBB out there for his enemies like that.

I've got more...

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: I'd love to address this...


Apr 8, 2021, 4:51 PM

I don't know whether to be impressed or concerned that you went to such great lengths to save various posts of mine from over the past year plus. I'm sorry you evidently have personal issues with me. I don't know you, I've never met you, and can't understand the level of grudge you seem to be holding against me.

As to your points:

11/10/2019:
Your Post: You congratulated our team on beating Colgate, a team "considered by some to be the best mid-major team in the country this year."
Facts: Not one rating service had Colgate as the number one mid-major team that season.


Prior to our game against Colgate in that early season matchup, I read a national columnist who said that he felt that Colgate might be the best mid-major team in the country. I don't recall who he was. It was not an official rating service, and the way I stated my post was clear about that.

03/08/2020:
Your Post: You thanked our players and team for a great season finishing 8th out of 15 in the regular season ACC standings. You, in error, claimed GT finishing at #5 didn't count.
Facts: We finished 9th in the ACC regular season standings. Per the official ACC site, their 5th place finish did count in the regular season.


I was clearly using the ACC Tournament standings as my reference. We finished 9th in the regular season, but were seeded 8th due to GT's post-season ban. If you want to make an issue over 8th in the ACC Tournament versus 9th in the regular season, I suppose that's your right but I am not understanding why it's so important to you. We finished in the middle of the pack, and 8th versus 9th is immaterial in my opinion.


04/15/2020:
Your Post: Harvey Grant is not a "Clemson alumnus".
Facts: He is.


We've been over this. The term alumnus is often used to signify graduates of a school, and does not include those who attended and did not graduate. When this was discussed at that time, I referenced communication from Clemson University (I believe it was from President Clements if I remember correctly) who referred to alumni as graduates. Yes, I am aware that alumni can also refer to students who did not graduate, but in my experience the overwhelming majority of the public equates alumnus with graduate.

If an alumnus is simply a person who attended school, with no requirement for graduation, do you consider someone who attended college for one day and then dropped out an alumnus? What about someone who enrolled as a student but never attended a class? Do you consider them an alumnus? I don't, and I would bet that most other people don't either.

03/10/2021:
Your Post: The first round game of the ACC Tournament was the least important game of the season.
Facts: No tournament game is the least important game of the season.


I explained that our program goals for this year, according to what I have read on TigerNet, was to have a good regular season and to make the NCAA Tournament. We had a good regular season and were clearly in the NCAA Tournament when the ACC Tournament started, so we did not have any pressure to win to get in off the bubble. To me, the ACC Tournament game was the least important game of the season. Obviously that isn't a fact, because it was my opinion. My opinion that it was the least important game in our season is no more or less valid than the opinion that it was the most important game.

The past few days you have mentioned Frank Howard is partly to blame for our current shortcomings and basketball was given "scraps". Not true. While football gets most of the attention, basketball hasn't been getting by on scraps. The investment in Littlejohn in the 60's and again today is evidence of that.


Clemson's marginalization of basketball throughout most of its history is clear. Clemson has chosen to prioritize football throughout its existence, and at times basketball was not given what it needed to compete in the ACC or nationally. When you challenged this notion, I posted a significant amount of information on this topic, including our pathetic basketball record over several decades from the 1930s to the 1970s both overall and in conference play. You tried to use Littlejohn Coliseum being constructed in the 1960s as evidence that Clemson supported basketball well, which is not a very good example based on that time period. I explained this to you, but of course you were determined to hold your ground and were unwilling to see things differently.

The facts support Clemson's neglect of basketball during those critical years in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s. You are welcome to wish things were different, but since you claim to only deal in facts, I suggest you re-examine what has been posted.

You've also mentioned CBB is the winningest coach in Clemson basketball history, but failed to mention he is also the losingest coach. You had to know people would point that out, it was almost criminal to hang CBB out there for his enemies like that.

He is the winningest coach in Clemson basketball history. I consider that an accomplishment. If you or others feel the need to emphasize his losses, that's your right. I have never claimed that it isn't true. I prefer to focus on the positives.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


It's always great when someone denies saying something...


Apr 8, 2021, 5:00 PM

then plays the victim when when the other person has a good memory.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Oh, and...


Apr 8, 2021, 5:08 PM [ in reply to Re: I'd love to address this... ]

1) Exactly, you made a claim with no evidence to back it up. Google it, maybe you can find the quote?

2) You should have congratulated them on "being seeded 8th". You congratulated them on "finishing 8th". "Finishing" implies an ending, not a beginning. But keep fighting that battle against the ACC website. I'm sure you'll win.

3) We have been over it. Surprised you are still arguing with the dictionary.

4) and everything after. Too long and too boring.

Remember, nobody makes excuses when they win.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: Oh, and...


Apr 8, 2021, 5:30 PM

oh my. this is like watching an adult discipline a child at walmart.

more facts on top of facts. quick - ask her about dw

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: I'd love to address this...


Apr 8, 2021, 5:32 PM [ in reply to Re: I'd love to address this... ]

nope

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: I'd love to address this...


Apr 8, 2021, 6:01 PM [ in reply to Re: I'd love to address this... ]



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


Re: Do you know the main reason why Littlejohn was built?


Apr 7, 2021, 2:02 PM [ in reply to Do you know the main reason why Littlejohn was built? ]

good christ

is this how the far right and far left tell stories? just say it and pray the tards will believe?

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


I'm neither far left nor far right, but that has nothing to


Apr 7, 2021, 2:48 PM

do with this discussion.

And yes, Jesus Christ is good. We can agree on that.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Littlejohn was built during the Howard AD era...


Apr 7, 2021, 1:50 PM [ in reply to Littlejohn was built during the Howard AD era... ]

shhhh....

you’re messing up the narrative with actual facts.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


No, I didn't.


Apr 7, 2021, 12:49 PM [ in reply to you did. ]

The point is that Clemson had an opportunity at various points throughout its basketball history to support basketball better. Instead, Clemson decided to prioritize other things, namely football. That has certainly benefited football, but has harmed basketball.

Every decision Clemson has made over the past 100+ years of basketball has gotten us to where we are today. Some have been good, but the overwhelming majority - especially during the formative years - were bad.

These mistakes are even more consequential since basketball is the second highest revenue sport in college athletics. While many of our peers in the ACC and nationally supported basketball well, we did not. It's really hard to overcome decades of neglect, yet somehow our fans expect some new facilities or a new coach to erase it all.

As for the non-revenue sports you mentioned, you must understand that success in those sports is much easier to have when an infusion of cash and/or support can be applied. Obviously coaching matters a lot as well, in all of these sports (including basketball).

DRad is the first AD we have had who seems to see the potential with our basketball program. Terry Don Phillips did to some degree as well, but he didn't have the vision or the financial ability to prioritize that - especially since football had to come first at that time.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: No, I didn't.


Apr 7, 2021, 2:03 PM

the point is...

there is no point.

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Maybe you should stop responding then.


Apr 7, 2021, 2:50 PM

Your 1-2 line posts don't really add much to the conversation anyway.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Maybe you should stop responding then.


Apr 7, 2021, 3:51 PM

it’s not a conversation. not going to repeat facts that were already presented, factually. a conversation based on untruths is what nana always called a “story”

waste of time

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: I will absolutely point fingers at Clemson's administration


Apr 6, 2021, 9:48 PM [ in reply to I will absolutely point fingers at Clemson's administration ]

Bottom line is Drew is a far better coach and recruiter. Brownell has hit his ceiling. No amount of facility upgrades are going to matter. To you finishing fifth in the weakest ACC conference in memory and two one and dones equals a great year. Brownell cannot take us any higher than that. We’ve tried t your way for 11 years. Let’s try to improve our coach.

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No argument from me about Drew.


Apr 7, 2021, 1:16 PM

He's an outstanding coach and recruiter.

As I've always said, I'm happy to be open-minded about a new coach for Clemson basketball provided that the commitment from our administration and fans is strong and consistent. But I've seen enough success from Brad to give him more time, while administrative and fan support for basketball hopefully catches up to what it needs to be.

By having everything else dialed in, we can truly see what Brad can accomplish on a (somewhat) more level playing field. If Brad is as successful as I believe he will be, everybody should be happy. And if he isn't, and we go in a different direction, at least we are in great shape to hire someone else.

But if you think coaching is our problem at Clemson, why have we had so little success over 100+ years? Why is our basketball history the worst in the ACC? Do we not know how to find the right coach? Or do we simply not know how to support that coach and the program as well as we should?

As you know, Brad had to scratch and claw for the new facilities. He personally raised a majority of those funds himself. Thankfully, he loves Clemson and wants to be here. But what if he were like Rick Barnes and Oliver Purnell, and just viewed Clemson basketball as a stepping stone?

There is a reason why Rick Barnes viewed Texas as a better job than Clemson, and why Oliver Purnell viewed DePaul as a better job that Clemson. Ask yourself why, and you'll see that coaching isn't our issue at Clemson.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.


Apr 6, 2021, 2:15 PM

No, Jay Wright is Basketball "Dabo". Villanova basketball parallels Clemson football well as it was a "fighting above their weight" non-blueblood program that eventually hit all the gears in the 80s, faded, and then exploded again after a long rebuild.

Baylor example is closer to... well, I don't know. 1993 Bowden Florida State or Osborne Nebrask - a long build time before payoff... but then again he has to build a dynasty really to reach that level. Maybe a Gary Patterson if Gary was not snuffled in 2014.

I don't think anyone would give a football coach 17 seasons without a conference championship and then win the natty/conference in year 18. If NC State had patience, maybe but they would still be on Amato right now.

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Villanova is a very good comparison.***


Apr 6, 2021, 4:00 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


We have had better fan attendance than Baylor...


Apr 6, 2021, 6:47 PM

for over 30 years (Probably longer...I just stopped). The only time their attendance has been higher than ours was this year and 2012. EVERY other year we've attended Basketball games at a higher rate. And as you pointed out, that is with a far inferior product to watch on the court over the past 10 year. How can you blame fan support? Do you realize how many fans attend some of these mid majors that consistently out perform us in the Dance and on the court?

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I don't think our fan support is bad.


Apr 7, 2021, 1:37 PM

It's just not what it would ideally be. I realize that the product on the court dictates that to some degree, as do the teams on our home schedule, mid-week games, competing interests, etc.

Our fans have supported basketball very well at times, and not so well at others.

And no, I'm not saying that fans magically make coaches coach better and players play better. But a good home court advantage is a big deal, especially in the ACC. Just think what a great impression it would make on recruits if we routinely had a full house of loud fans.

Remember, we are having to overcome the perception that we are a football school that doesn't care about basketball. All of these details matter if we want to be an elite basketball program.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I don't think our fan support is bad.


Apr 7, 2021, 1:56 PM


Just think what a great impression it would make on recruits if we routinely had a full house of loud fans.




I made this identical point and you disagreed. Now you are using it to defend yourself. Shocker.

As long as we are playing boring basketball (Brownell's style), we will never have the same rabid home crowd like we did for OP's teams.

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Re: Scott Drew is Baylor's Dabo.


Apr 6, 2021, 10:07 PM



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Unfortunately, Brad Brownell don't got it.


Apr 7, 2021, 10:46 AM

And he ain't never going to get it - not in his DNA. He does have enough though to keep us on the cusp, and clean, glimmers of hope for next year, which is enough for you and many others, plus much of the administration it seems.

No litany of statistics or history lessons is going to put that missing groove in Brownell. Game management, winning, enthusiasm, identity - those don't occur on paper or digitized on a message board. I should know, I was once in that camp. After enough time and evidence though, I am no longer. I was wrong in believing that Brownell had what it takes to take this program to a higher level. I guess that balances out my beliefs in Dabo during the pumper / dumper era.

Go Tigers.

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Did this past season impact your perception in any way?


Apr 7, 2021, 1:47 PM

For most fans, having one of the top dozen or so seasons in over 100 years of Clemson basketball would be a cause for optimism and confidence, not hopelessness and despair.

I'm guessing you had already made your mind up about Brownell before this season, and nothing was going to change it?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Indeed my thoughts on Brownell's game preparation and


Apr 7, 2021, 2:31 PM

game management skills have not been stellar since coming to the realization some years back that his deficiencies in these areas inhibited our and his ability to win consistently and get the most out of what I've mostly felt have been winnable and talented rosters.

Like you referred to here early in the season, I thought we had one of our best and deepest rosters in decades this year. Seeing them perform up to that level early on was certainly inspiring. Coming into this past season also I was fully aware that it was a sort of "contract" or "hot seat" year for Coach B, where our buyout was no longer in the millions and there would be an opportunity for a clean break if things didn't work out. True to form, Brownell delivered one of his better seasons. Also true to form, we suffered maddening inconsistencies and showed up least when it mattered most (UVA blowout, Duke blowout, ACC tourney flop, NCAA tourney flop).

Hopelessness and despair? Bless your heart. Certainly not very confident or optimistic though. I witnessed the same type of season and momentum killing performances this year that I've witnessed throughout his tenure. It is what it is.

Go Tigers.

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