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All-In [44041]
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Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 10, 2021, 9:32 PM
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Since people seem enjoy comparing our coaches to Tommy Bowden, your answer is Monte Lee. Not Brad Brownell.
MONTE LEE.
There really isn’t any debate on this.
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All-In [46565]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 10, 2021, 9:35 PM
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Brads not good enough to be a Tommy Bowden yet.
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Commissioner [957]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 10, 2021, 9:37 PM
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Monte has had about half the time the other two have. Don’t you talk about patience with brownell? Didn’t you just post about patience for Monte? Or is this because everyone is on your ###?
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All-In [44041]
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It’s not about how much time they have had
Mar 10, 2021, 10:37 PM
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as much as it is what kind of resources they have been given and how they have performed in relation to the program’s history.
At Clemson, football and baseball have winning traditions and great support. Basketball has neither.
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Commissioner [957]
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Re: It’s not about how much time they have had
Mar 10, 2021, 10:42 PM
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Clemson has plenty more resources and money spent in basketball than recent teams in the final four. Clemson football also did not compete financially with Alabama and Texas yet surpassed them. FSU spends considerably less than us and seems to have turned the corner.
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All-In [30814]
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At some point is is about
Mar 11, 2021, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to It’s not about how much time they have had ] |
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Wins and loses and the coach is held responsible.
I feel safe in saving brownell received all the support he will ever get. If there is a split I'd say both parties tried and it didn't work out.
I do think Jack and Tommy were forced out prematurely. Worked out for football. Baseball seems worse off at this point.
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All-TigerNet [10929]
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Dabo Swinney = National Champion x2
Mar 10, 2021, 9:39 PM
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I like maph.
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110%er [5009]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 10, 2021, 9:41 PM
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Brad Brownell is more comparable to a poor mans Herb Sendek.
Monte is a touch of Hatfield and Coot
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All-In [30457]
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Brownell and Monte aren't cutting it. Period. Don't care WHO
Mar 10, 2021, 9:45 PM
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you want to compare them to
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CU Medallion [51531]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 10, 2021, 10:02 PM
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All-In [48282]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 10, 2021, 10:03 PM
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Love ya death Judge, but honestly, STERLING is correct. Either way you slice it, niether is cutting it as best is the standard. Dabo never made excuses on facilities or history or no schollys etc. Bottom line that's all Clemson fans want. A winner, however they say it.
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All-In [44041]
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Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip.
Mar 10, 2021, 10:46 PM
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I’m not sure how that applies to baseball or basketball at Clemson.
I haven’t watched baseball this year, so maybe you can help me. Are our players playing with great effort? Are they playing to their assumed talent level? If not, then I agree, they aren’t doing their best.
I know our basketball team plays their tails off, and that is consistent since Brad has been our coach. They often overachieve. Basketball just needs to continue to close the talent gap so that we make the NCAAs every year and deeper runs are much more common.
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All-In [48282]
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Re: Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip.
Mar 11, 2021, 12:08 AM
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Be more than welcome to try. It's not the players. I'm confident that each one has the will to win. In baseball, is the coach making the correct decisions to give the players their best chance at winning. Monte uses analytics to drive his decisions, best I can tell. Obviously I'm not on the bench, at practice with Brad or in the dugout with Monte.
Are both good coaches. Yes, probably somewhere. Monte had a good team at c of c. He brought those talents to Clemson and certainly he and Brad want to win.
What sets Dabo apart from both the other coaches is this. Talent and strengths. Dabo evolved with each class he brought in. Meticulous took inventory of the roster and designed offense and defense to give them the best chance to win. He also wasn't afraid to hire people around him to make him better.
Then Dabo created a culture, an identity. Dabo sold Clemson. He is a great salesman and manager. Obviously I personally don't see that in Monte or Brad. Why? The talent level has stagnated. Monte less than Brad. Brad's had 11 years to bring talent in and develop talent. How many 3 star or less players in football are making millions. A bunch that Dabo created. Has Monte or Brad done the same? Not really... Again imo and stats prove otherwise.
Brad's statement after the game was like Monte. Brad , we need to play better defense - duh . Monte, we need to hit better - duh.... It's the same wrotten speech year after year.
What Dabo say after west VA? We need to play better defense. Guess what, within 2 yrs he had Clemson d best in the nation. Nothing like that has happened with Brad or Monte and nothing gives me any hope that it will in the future. The future IS now for both. Both have had plenty of time to show improve and if anything, both have declined. Yeah, each have had 1 Good year but no sustainability.
Hth - sorry for the redundancy and long winded answer. Just trying to give my honest assessment.
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110%er [7987]
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Re: Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip.
Mar 11, 2021, 7:14 AM
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Yes but Dabo operated with basically an unlimited budget and folks throwing money at him for facilities. No doubt Dabo is an elite coach where Brad is a VG coach but the playing field is hardly level
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip.
Mar 11, 2021, 12:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip. ] |
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Clemsongal,
I will let Judge handle your comments on basketball.
Baseball is the area where I am more invested and feel a little more qualified to speak.
I will address your comments in order.
Giving the players the best chance to win - Clemson is losing baseball games at the moment in large part due to not scoring runners from scoring position and not throwing enough strikes. I'm not sure how that is on the coaches unless you are calling for lineup or pitching rotation changes. Hitters have to get hits and pitchers have to make pitches. Striking out with a guy on 3rd is not a coaching error. Walking the 9 hitter and giving up a hit to the leadoff batter is not a coaching error.
Analytics - Baseball decision have been made using analytics since the game was created. Highest batting averages near the top of the lineup is using analytics. Pitchers who give up the least runs will pitch the most is an analytical decision. Guys struggling to hit but stay in the lineup because they are saving runs on defense is using a runs saved/runs created metric. Complaining about the use of analytics in baseball means you either don't know baseball or don't know what analytics means.
Monte did have good teams(plural) at CofC. Possibly the only thing I agree with you on in your post but wanted to specify that is was not a 1 year success that got him hired to Clemson.
I have personal knowledge of Monte's recruiting abilities from high school baseball players I'm in contact with. There isn't a head coach in the southeast who is more closely connected with his recruits or who is more active in the actual recruiting process. Scar's head coach doesn't speak to recruits except when he makes an offer. His assistants have to do all of the work. Kids come to Clemson because of Monte, not in spite of him. The same was true when Monte was an assistant but Clemson fans don't know that like they do about Dabo because Monte was never an assistant here.
Unless you want Monte to call out specific players during postgame pressers, there isn't much he can say other than "we need to hit better" or " we need to pitch better". I hope you know he is filling his obligation to the media so he can go back and tell him team what really happened and try to fix it.
Footballs adjustments after the WV loss don't translate exactly to baseball because you can't "scheme" an offense or defense in baseball. What Monte has done since the losses in regionals is try to recruit more power pitchers because that's what knocked them out of regionals in his first few years. We have a true freshman pitcher in the weekend rotation throwing 91-93 and another who is up to 95 but is struggling to pitch at the level he pitched all year long until the real games started. Seeing more power arms at Clemson instead of more Pat Krall type pitchers is a "WV game" type adjustment to our pitching staff.
I'm not sure why I keep seeing people say baseball has declined since Monte took over. He entered with the program scraping by to make regionals the last 3 seasons prior to his arrival. He then hosted regionals the first 3 years in Clemson (losing to future CWS teams in each) and was a 2 seed in his 4th year (not far off the host line again). His 5th season was cut short but was the best pitching rotation since he has been at Clemson and the results were showing that in the 1st 3rd of the season.
I typically like your posts, which is why I took the time to respond to all of these points about the baseball situation.
The team needs to get better. I think we agree on that point.
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CU Medallion [65416]
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I have never had a problem with the perceived effort of our
Mar 11, 2021, 9:01 AM
[ in reply to Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip. ] |
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basketball teams under Brad. My problem has always been the MADDENING inconsistency on offense. Especially with this team this year. One game, they shoot very well, pass well, and rebound well. The very next game, they don't do ANY of those things even mediocrely. The shooting strokes don't even look the same. It is literally hard to believe that it is the same group of guys. And, it seems we do not run any "set" plays anymore, just pass the ball quickly around the perimeter until the shot clock winds down, then take a three which may or may not be open. This is especially exasperating when the other team then goes down the court and has absolutely NO trouble getting the ball inside on US.
I said all that to say this. IF the team never played well, that would be one thing. But, to show flashes of potential, and then just implode against inferior teams like Miami makes Clemson basketball fandom the most frustrating thing this side of, well, anything.
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CU Guru [1893]
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With three 3-stars committed and no true big man,
Mar 11, 2021, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Ahh yes, the best is the standard quip. ] |
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and losing our best player who disappeared in the second half yesterday, the talent gap will widen.
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Orange Blooded [2140]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 11, 2021, 7:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden ] |
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Remember now best is standard took a five game losing streak we all want to never experience again. That same patience should be afforded to Monte. Let this play out a while instead of downing him constantly.
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Legend [16902]
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Monte Lee = Brad Brownell
Mar 10, 2021, 10:05 PM
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FIFY
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Heisman Winner [140463]
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Monte Lee + Tommy Bowden = Tommy Lee***
Mar 10, 2021, 10:06 PM
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Recruit [99]
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Re: Monte Lee + Tommy Bowden = Tommy Lee***
Mar 10, 2021, 10:12 PM
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I don't think the associative property applies to this kind of math, thus order matters. The correct formula is Tommy Bowden + Monte Lee = Tommy Lee.
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Hall of Famer [21757]
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CU Medallion [51531]
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110%er [7159]
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So he's good just not danny ford or Dabo good.
Mar 11, 2021, 8:26 AM
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and really...who is?
Never will understand the mud that get slung at Tommy Bowden when it comes to Clemson fans. Tommy wasn't the second coming of Vince Lombardi but we act like special/elite coaches are a dime a dozen.
Tommy did great things at Clemson. He took us out of rock bottom (Tommy West years) and got us back to being a contender. During Tommy West we were lucky to get 5 wins. I think we are confusing Tommy B with Tommy W or Larry Shyatt. I was as frustrated as anyone that we couldn't get over the hump during the Bowden years but I was grateful at where he left us.
Either ya'll forget where you came from or your just a parrot that tweets whatever the last guy said.Tommy B is always welcome at Clemson in my mind.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Monte Lee = Tommy Bowden
Mar 11, 2021, 8:27 AM
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Monte doesn’t finish with a record under .500 half the time.
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Legend [15804]
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Maybe...I'd argue that Tommy had less on his plate when he
Mar 11, 2021, 9:04 AM
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started and certainly helped to move our FB program forward. Also IMO, Monte may have had more expectation thrust on him. Their success thus far has been similar.
I still think Monte needs a few more years and that he'll have us playing better by the end of the season.
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