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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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CU Medallion [56090]
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All-In [49050]
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This is like a thing now...
May 25, 2017, 10:52 AM
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Party A: Here are some facts and figures.
Party B: I read some vaguely related stuff that makes me think that's wrong.
On NPR this morning, there was a police department somewhere in America that was concerned that increased immigration enforcement was preventing domestic violence victims from coming forward. They had facts and figures on reduced calls and officers talked about the immigrant community having pulled back from what had been a healthy relationship with the police.
They then got the counterpoint from some lady at an anti-immigration non-profit and she said, "Well, lets just say I'm skeptical. How do they have statistics about these supposedly scared people who hide from everyone?"
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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Get the name of the city and I'll report the crime...
May 25, 2017, 1:24 PM
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to ICE. 
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Oculus Spirit [97729]
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How many people does the CBO think will then
May 25, 2017, 10:55 AM
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take the drastic step of buying their own insurance?
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CU Medallion [73569]
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i dont get the more uninsured argument
May 25, 2017, 10:56 AM
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Right now Barrycare makes people get insurance when they dont want to. This doesn't hence why number of uninsured goes up.
that math thing.
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All-In [28802]
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It's largely about Medicaid***
May 25, 2017, 12:40 PM
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Why don't you read the CBO report so you can understand it.
May 25, 2017, 1:40 PM
[ in reply to i dont get the more uninsured argument ] |
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https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52752
Approximately 130 million non elderly people have pre-existing conditions nationwide, an average of more than 300,000 per congressional district.
51 percent of the non elderly population has at least one pre-existing condition. 75 percent of those ages 45 to 54 and 84 percent among those ages 55 to 64 have at least one pre-existing condition. 1 in 4 children would be affected by eliminating this protection.
Insurance companies will be able to raise rates on people with pre-existing conditions to the point where they will not be able to afford coverage. Older people will see their premiums increase.
Younger healthier people will see their premiums go down, but they are less likely to purchase insurance because they don't think they will need it.
In short, if you live in a Southern states that will gut minimum requirements and provide minimal if any support for high risk pools, and you are between 45 and 64, your premiums will sky rocket to the point that you may not be able to purchase insurance or you will purchase a policy that does not include coverage that you will most likely need.
I've only touched on a few of the problems with Trumpcare, but you should read the CBO report and try to understand exactly why they come to that conclusion.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Do you know the back story on Aetna and Humana lying to the
May 25, 2017, 11:22 AM
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public?
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-aetna-obamacare-20170123-story.html
Did you know that on December 9th, 2015, in an effort to force insurers to pull out of the Obamacare health care marketplace, Marco Rubio and his Republican minions passed a bill gutting the risk corridor payments insurance companies were supposed to receive from $2.9 billion to only $400 million.
As usual, Republicans willfully disregard facts because the truth does not support their arguments.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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meh, obama lied about everthing on barrycare***
May 25, 2017, 11:41 AM
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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55% approve of Obamacare. 17% approve of Trumpcare.
May 25, 2017, 11:47 AM
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There's a reason Faux News is floundering in the horse latitudes of public scrutiny.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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lol, no one knows anything about trumpcare
May 25, 2017, 11:55 AM
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i barely know anything and I follow news.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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The poll actually addressed that and they do know quite
May 25, 2017, 12:20 PM
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a bit about it. What it does show is that there are a number of people who think favorably of it because the don't understand the adverse effects. So, there is room for the approval rating to fall even further as they gain more knowledge of the scheme.
https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2443
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All-In [28802]
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The conclusion from that should be...
May 25, 2017, 12:50 PM
[ in reply to 55% approve of Obamacare. 17% approve of Trumpcare. ] |
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that everybody hates perceived large changes in what they think of as essential services. Everybody hated Obamacare to the point that the Democrats were voted out of office. But now when there's the possibility of changing it, they hate whatever's new. Now, I think that's largely because people are being told they're going to lose their insurance, even though the only effect this will have on the large majority of people (who get their insurance through employer-sponsored group plans) will be that their premiums will drop and the debt will drop. Some people in the individual market will lose the subsidies they had under Obamacare, but they'll be replaced by a refundable tax credit. The real problem, as the bill stands now, is the people who will lose Medicaid coverage but who wouldn't be receiving a large enough tax credit to afford insurance because the tax credit is flat. But that's a very small percentage of the population.
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Rock Defender [53]
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A very small percentage of a large population is still
May 25, 2017, 1:03 PM
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significant.
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All-In [34112]
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Correction: The debt won't drop.
May 25, 2017, 2:49 PM
[ in reply to The conclusion from that should be... ] |
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The Trump White House has made it clear that it anticipates deficits every single year, well above any budgetary savings via Trumpcare.
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Republican repeal efforts are educating the public on
May 25, 2017, 1:24 PM
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Obamacare and Trumpcare, which, I'm sure we can all agree, is a good thing.
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Heisman Winner [137974]
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CU Medallion [56090]
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110%er [9100]
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All-In [28802]
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Rubio did that to keep taxpayers from bailing them out
May 25, 2017, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Do you know the back story on Aetna and Humana lying to the ] |
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The point was that if the risk corridor payments couldn't be balanced out (those insurers who paid out less than expected are supposed to cover the losses by those paying out more than expected), then the system wasn't working anyway and we shouldn't socialize that risk. As per usual, though, you can only even partially understand one side of a complex situation.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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You don't understand the purpose of the risk corridors.***
May 25, 2017, 1:21 PM
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Obamacare is going to zero all on its own.***
May 25, 2017, 11:47 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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...and the hospital emergency room bills will...
May 25, 2017, 1:27 PM
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be written off as tax loss with the remaining insured paying higher prices for their insurance.
Obama and the democrats screwed America with their socialist agenda.
I'll throw the progressive pubs in that last statement.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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All-In [28802]
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The issue is lower premiums vs. increasing insureds
May 25, 2017, 12:36 PM
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The CBO score shows that AHCA will lower premiums, in some cases by up to 20%, but that it will lead to a fairly large number of people being dropped from Medicaid and a significant amount of people choosing not to buy insurance. I think some of the people CBO assumes would've had insurance under ACA but wouldn't have it under AHCA are questionable: would the individual mandate really lead to the number of people signing up next year (something like 8 million) that they claim? Weren't they way off in predicting the number of people a mandate would compel to buy insurance? And what about people whose reason to not buy insurance was largely about cost? Wouldn't lowering premiums lead to some increase in the number of insureds?
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Oculus Spirit [81073]
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We would have been better had we never started ACA, and
May 25, 2017, 12:41 PM
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worried about the folks that were uninsured to begin with.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Less people being insured is better than
May 25, 2017, 1:50 PM
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the country is completely broke because it relied too heavily on the government.
The US is supposed to be about creating a chance for people to make their own way. We now incentivize invalidity.
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CU Medallion [56090]
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We need to stop focusing on insurance and start dealing with
May 25, 2017, 2:35 PM
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the real problem: The cost of healthcare. Not the cost of health insurance, the cost of healthcare. Reduce those costs and insurance premiums go down, state and federal deficits go down, the number of personal bankruptcies goes down, your ####### mom goes down.... everybody wins!
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All-In [34112]
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Sorry, we've been instructed to focus on insurance.
May 25, 2017, 2:51 PM
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And none of us can think for ourselves.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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While I agree that healthcare cost is the biggest problem,
May 25, 2017, 3:58 PM
[ in reply to We need to stop focusing on insurance and start dealing with ] |
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I see the two topics as closely related.
People tend to spend more than necessary when they have no skin in the game.
We are throwing money into an emotional money-pit. We can't keep paying for everyone's bad decisions. We have got to start dis-incentivizing bad life choices if we are going to pay people's bills.
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All-In [34112]
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Re: While I agree that healthcare cost is the biggest problem,
May 25, 2017, 4:40 PM
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"Sick people deserve it" is a terrible political position, not least of all because it's so untrue.
The vast majority of medical experiences I have seen and been involved in have approximately zero to do with life choices. In fact, I don't know anyone who screws themselves up knowing that they'll get to go to the hospital for cheap.
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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I think he means smoking, obesity accompanied by...
May 25, 2017, 4:49 PM
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high fat diets with little or no exercise. The typical problem is that the food stamp office has a ramp for the fat person's wheelchair that they really need due to blowing up their knees from being so fat. The pickup twice the amount of food stamps a normal person needs to enjoy life then wheel themselves to the store and troll the soft drink isle on their way to the chip and dip section which is just an isle or so away from the ice cream freezer and the candy racks then pick up their smokes on the way out.
I mean, that's how I do it.
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All-In [34112]
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I assumed he meant something like that.
May 25, 2017, 4:58 PM
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And that has nothing to do with a massive amount of healthcare needs.
Someone ate a lot and got fat. How does that make it okay to disregard patients with congenital illnesses, accident victims, cancer sufferers who don't "deserve it" because they don't smoke, and victims of childhood illnesses?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I'm not saying sick people deserve it.
May 26, 2017, 10:04 AM
[ in reply to Re: While I agree that healthcare cost is the biggest problem, ] |
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I'm saying billions of taxpayer's dollars are being spent as a result of bad decisions. That doesn't mean that all people who are sick deserve it. It's simply acknowledging a reality. Some people in this country are paying money for other people's bad choices. And its a lot of money.
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All-In [34112]
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Re: I'm not saying sick people deserve it.
May 26, 2017, 10:54 AM
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OK, so does the solution need to recognize that some people deserve to be sick, and some don't?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Yes?
May 26, 2017, 10:58 AM
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Incentivize being healthy. Disincentivize the alternative.
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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All-In [31906]
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I'm not convinced that the salaries of healthcare....
May 26, 2017, 11:11 AM
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professionals, in general, is the problem.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: CBO says the Pub insurance bill will leave...
May 25, 2017, 8:20 PM
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The argument is being framed in the wrong way in my view. The Insurance companies have reaped massive profits as a result of Obamacare.
The argument that is now normal is that the Fed. Govt. should subsidize Insurance Premiums because premiums have gotten so high. That is a red herring. Premiums are so high because there isn't anything to prevent them from rising because the Insurance Companies are not constrained by the Sherman Anti-Trust Laws. They collude...and they do it to make money.
Let's look at Aetna for example. Here is a graph of their stock price and profitability over the last 8 years:
The stock price has gone from $26 in 2009 to $146 today (560%). (S&P total growth same period 176%)
Now, more surprisingly, in just the last five years it's gone from $48 to $145.23 today (302%). This during the time that Obamacare is falling apart and Aetna is losing so much money it's pulling out.
Now how is this possible? Simple, The Affordable Care Act and the American Health Care Act were and are being written by the Insurance Companies.
Repeal the Insurance Co's exclusion to the Sherman Anti-Trust Act to prevent collusion and price fixing and do away with the "artificial lines" around states making it illegal to buy from companies in other states and you will restore competition....a fair market approach.
The catch? Adding together only The Insurance Companies contributions to Congress during just the 2008,10,12,14 & 2016 election cycles the total is $257,985,317. That was $99,323,907 to Democrats and $158,661,410 to Republicans.
It's not about Republicans vs Democrats. It's not about Liberal vs Conservatives. It's about the American people having our democracy subverted by money. Our Policies, that we have to live with are being bought and paid for by huge money interests.
Finally, who were the top recipients of Insurance money 2015-16?
Clinton, Hillary (D) $2,492,387
Trump, Donald (R) $838,162
Rubio, Marco (R-FL) Senate $669,427
Ryan, Paul (R-WI) House $666,849
Cruz, Ted (R-TX) Senate $661,876
It's not hard to see what the Insurance Companies, the Power Companies, Oil Companies, Telecom, Broadband, Auto Insurance, Hospitals, Banks, Wall Steet, etc are getting for their money.
Message was edited by: Felix2®
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Hall of Famer [22948]
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I just don't understand you sometimes
May 26, 2017, 12:22 AM
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If I recall correctly, you collect disability and have children who bought more affordable insurance through Obamacare than would have been previously available on the open market. Yet continue to support policies that would most directly impact your situation or people in similar situations.
What am I missing?
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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I think you have me mixed up with another.
May 26, 2017, 12:37 AM
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My son and DNL (nopigs) were forced to buy Obamacare. The insurance cost her about 600/mo and her husband, my son isn't covered under that policy. He's a student and has a minor income from contract jobs which aren't reported. She's perfectly healthy and wouldn't need the coverages she has for decades. But that's not why I'm against Obamacare.
My passion is that we don't spend their children into the poor house by spending money we don't have. We're at the point where we owe more than this country is worth.
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