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CU Guru [1346]
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More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 30, 2015, 2:07 PM
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Not surprised that another Clemson student committee voted in favor of renaming. They are just as PC as academics, especially graduate level people.
But I don't follow this so closely, and didn't realize the effort to rename school buildings was as widespread. I wonder what the full target list looks like. The joke on this site a month ago or so about how Mississippi schools might not have a single building remaining with an old name may eventually come true.
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/education/2015/01/30/clemson-student-group-votes-rename-tillman-hall/22593921/
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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TCI is on the scene down in Mississippi...***
Jan 30, 2015, 2:08 PM
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CU Guru [1346]
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Not sure what that means. Just a joke?***
Jan 30, 2015, 2:10 PM
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Legend [18663]
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True. Trying to suck up to the profs !***
Jan 30, 2015, 2:15 PM
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All-In [26968]
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How many majorities will have to approve renaming
Jan 30, 2015, 2:44 PM
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before it's no longer "PC", but just the will of the people.
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Legend [17285]
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Credibility is enhanced when ...
Jan 30, 2015, 3:00 PM
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the dialogue is amongst Clemson students, alumnus, faculty and administration.
These parties have legitimate standing. I can respect the diversity in these groups and differences in opinions.
Outside political leaders, social leaders and media just pi$$ me off.
If the name is changed, then it should be because the Clemson family had thoughtful discussion and decided on a course of action. I can support whatever outcome from an internally driven process.
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All-In [26968]
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Agreed. And I think that is the end result.***
Jan 30, 2015, 3:01 PM
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110%er [5012]
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at this point, if they don't wait a couple of years
Jan 30, 2015, 3:06 PM
[ in reply to Credibility is enhanced when ... ] |
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Before acting, it clearly isn't an internally driven decision.
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All-In [26968]
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What are the external forces?
Jan 30, 2015, 3:08 PM
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So far everything I've seen is led by students and faculty.
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CU Guru [1346]
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Surely you recognize the original group with demands
Jan 30, 2015, 3:50 PM
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was organized by outside parties. Just the fact alone that the effort is becoming more widespread is one example of the greater effort.
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with an "external" driver. As long as those who are on board and pursuing the name change are, and remain tied to the school.
Contrast that with the foolish and futile effort by the FFRF to change the football program routines related to religion.
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110%er [5012]
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agreed... ??***
Jan 30, 2015, 8:24 PM
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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It was started by Clemson students in reaction to....
Jan 31, 2015, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to Surely you recognize the original group with demands ] |
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that Frat's stupid little "Cripmas Party". You middle aged and old people need to realize younger people are more politically aware and more politically active than your generation. They're more open minded, and they have many different kinds of friends. They don't share the intolerance that their parents or grandparents possibly had.
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110%er [6937]
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CU Medallion [51531]
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So is Jesse Jackson a student or faculty?
Jan 31, 2015, 7:33 AM
[ in reply to What are the external forces? ] |
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And this push for the renaming is being done by a small minority.
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Jackson was born in Greenville. He has more skin in the game
Jan 31, 2015, 11:32 AM
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than you do. And Tillman wasn't a basically decent guy who had some racist thoughts in a racist era. He was a member of the Red Shirts, a paramilitary organization that kidnapped and executed black leaders, including a state senator.
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CU Medallion [51531]
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More "skin" than I do? I have two degrees from Clemson,
Jan 31, 2015, 2:06 PM
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have worked at Clemson, and donate to the Clemson fund (not much, but I'm consistent). And being born in Greenville makes his voice louder than mine? He's a hate monger who earns his (tax free) living off the suffering and misfortune of others. He doesn't want equality. If there was, he wouldn't have a job. IMO that's no worse than what Tillman stood for. Racism is racism. Too bad for you Tillman Hall remains.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Too bad for you it won't be Tillman Hall for much longer...
Jan 31, 2015, 4:14 PM
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and it's getting a little tired people comparing a murderer in Ben Tillman to people who may not be honorable but have never been involved with violence or killed people like Ben Tillman.
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CU Medallion [51531]
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With the way you play the 'big man online card'
Jan 31, 2015, 5:57 PM
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you're not that different from Tillman either.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Backwards Lexingtonian, it's 2015 not 1915***
Jan 31, 2015, 6:02 PM
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CU Medallion [51531]
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It's 2015 and Irmo still sucks.***
Jan 31, 2015, 10:24 PM
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CU Guru [1330]
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Re: How many majorities will have to approve renaming
Jan 31, 2015, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to How many majorities will have to approve renaming ] |
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When the group is representative of the entire student body, I'll believe it. From my experience on campus, there is a VERY strong opposition to renaming Tillman Hall. It's an issue of a vocal minority being highly publicized.
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All-TigerNet [12539]
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I wouldn't mind if they did rename every last one of them****
Jan 30, 2015, 3:11 PM
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Legend [17285]
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I shed a tear when they demo'ed Johnston Hall ....
Jan 30, 2015, 3:16 PM
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It was a dump but held some memories ... For generations of Clemson students.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: I shed a tear when they demo'ed Johnston Hall ....
Jan 30, 2015, 11:09 PM
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I'm reminded when my dad swore that "no son of mine is ever going to have a Beatle haircut!" Now that really dates me. I did, in fact, get a haircut like George Harrison . Go figure.
Change is inevitable. Your going to see a wave of "change the buildings name" across a lot of college campuses before too long. UNC is having the same situation over the Saunders Building that was named after a former NC Secretary of State who helped organize the KKK in NC.
http://www.wral.com/students-rally-at-unc-to-rename-building-named-for-kkk-organizer/14406221/
Change is going to happen. There used to be no such thing as coed dorms. And now, apparently, Bruce Jenner has decided to live life as a woman. Not kidding...he's serious. Geez....
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CU Guru [1917]
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Re: More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 30, 2015, 3:29 PM
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Mybe we should just rename everything in the country King
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Orange Blooded [3350]
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Here's the thing . . .
Jan 30, 2015, 3:44 PM
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Yes, Tillman had racist views. Was it easier to have those views coming out of the throes of war? Probably so, but not a reason to condone it. However, as a white man, when I see the names of those who did some great things for this country or state but have that legacy marred by their views of race, sexual orientation, women, whatever I think about that when I see their names on buildings etc. I think that they serve as good reminders that no matter how much good you do that it can always be overshadowed by something negative and how important that is in the annals of time. Think of Strom Thurmond for example. He did a lot of good for the state of SC (and the country). Unfortunately, he will now probably be more remembered my many for an illegitimate child by his family's employee than any of that. The same with Tillman. When I see these names I reflect on the conflict between their contributions and detractions. To that end, I think we should leave these names on the building to remind us of how important that is. Especially on a college campus. On a less important level look at Jamies Winston. I can't think of him as a Hiesman trophy athlete with unbelievable talent without also thinking he's a criminal minded person who has been given a free pass. You can change the name but why? We should let these names speak to the students as the walk the campus and say, "what will you be remembered for?"
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Orange Blooded [4403]
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That is the most intelligent, most thoughtful take on this
Jan 30, 2015, 3:55 PM
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issue I have read on here or anywhere, period.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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No it's not***
Jan 31, 2015, 4:05 PM
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CU Medallion [55402]
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Re: Here's the thing . . .
Jan 30, 2015, 4:38 PM
[ in reply to Here's the thing . . . ] |
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If the ways that are excepted today were the same ways from 1847 to 1918. Benjamin Tillman would not have ever been in conversations on racism in 2015. Tillman was instrumental in the founding of Clemson University as an agricultural school. Every student that sends in an application asking permission to be enrolled at Clemson knew of Tillman and his roll in ensuring there would be a Clemson University. And they chose to come to Clemson knowing the history and of Tillman Hall. So I ask, did those students enroll at Clemson to receive the education that the founders started at Clemson, or did they enroll in Clemson to abolish the founders names from everything on the property of Clemson. If the latter is the case, remove them from Clemson property. The founders believed in Clemson and what Clemson would mean for our future. To remove their names from Clemson is very wrong. Tillman didn't give all that he gave for Clemson b/c he was a racist. He did what he did for Clemson for our peoples futures. And I'm sure he knew that in Clemson's future that one day Blacks would also be educated at Clemson. I don't think that he put in writing any where or said to anyone, if blacks are ever allowed to enroll at Clemson, that he wanted it remove from existence. He was big in founding Clemson, and now its a big issue that his name is to be removed from existence!!! I say that is total BS!!!
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110%er [5012]
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I must admit, I didn't know...
Jan 30, 2015, 8:34 PM
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When I applied. I just didn't know.
Would I have not gone to Clemson had I known? Nope. I am a white, 51 year old guy.
I am not in favor of changing the name(s) out of external PR duress.
However, I am not in favor of keeping names on buildings who were as aggregiously bad as Tillman either.
My solution is to let a couple of years pass, the make changes.
Strom is no even in the same class as Tillman when it comes to evil. No equivalency.
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110%er [5093]
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You're right eventually these buildings will be renamed
Jan 31, 2015, 11:12 AM
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But us southerners love fighting losing political battles.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Which explains why you coots haven't discontinued your...
Jan 31, 2015, 4:44 PM
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football program. You coot love fighting battles you know you will lose.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Don't tell me you're that ignorant....
Jan 31, 2015, 4:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Here's the thing . . . ] |
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Ben Tillman was an avowed White Supremacist till his death. He would have never dreamed of having female or black students at Clemson. He is one of the most reprehensible of the Jim Crow era politicians. Ben Tillman was a terrorist who participated in lynchings and the assassination of South Carolina state senator.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Ben Tillman killed people, Strom Thurmond didn't....
Jan 31, 2015, 4:03 PM
[ in reply to Here's the thing . . . ] |
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While I don't know if Strom Thurmond ever had a true change of heart towards black people (I lean towards that he didn't, because he never apologized for his past comments), but over the last 35 years of his political career he completely dropped the racist rhetoric he had used previously. And his office went out of their way to help black people who called their office about certain issues like social security and medicare. I'm not a Thurmond fan, but comparing him to Tillman is a bad and unfair analogy.
Tillman didn't do anything good for this country. He was one of the most reprehensible Jim Crow Era politicians. He was a sick person who pitted poor white people against poor black people (two groups of people in South Carolina that have a lot in common). Our State is so ashamed of Tillman that they gloss over him in history classes in South Carolina public schools.
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CU Guru [1346]
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I didn't intend to re-debate the issue....but.....
Jan 30, 2015, 3:55 PM
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There are fair arguments on either side on the controversy. Since the building's name change happened long after the school's founding, I wonder if there aren't other ways to honor the good that Tillman did beside the building name.
Bottom line is the momentum seems to be on the side of the name change as far as I can tell from a distance. For example, the rally that was held on a weekend to keep the name was supposedly not well attended.
My vote, if I had one, would be for the building to at least carry a hyphenated name. Like Tillman - King or whatever. A chance to contrast old and new, etc.
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110%er [6937]
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Re:You aree out of your noggin.***
Jan 30, 2015, 4:45 PM
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CU Medallion [51531]
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Orange Blooded [4693]
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wonder if the students will vote to eliminate parking enforcement
Jan 30, 2015, 3:57 PM
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Maybe they can vote to lengthen spring break while they're at it
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Legend [17285]
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I support both - and outlaw any lab classes on Friday!***
Jan 30, 2015, 5:14 PM
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All-In [40929]
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Friday is the best day for labs
Jan 31, 2015, 3:21 PM
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Chances are that if you were not in lab you wouldn't be doing school work anyway on Friday afternoon, so it is a great time to do work. Plus you have nothing due after lab so you are never rushing through to get on to something else
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Letterman [270]
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The real vote comes when alumni get to donate money..
Jan 30, 2015, 4:03 PM
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When Clemson has a campaign to get alumni donations to the university, that is when the real vote will occur. I am sure the leadership of the school is smart enough to poll some of the folks who provide big money donations to get their perspective. What I know is that many of my friends have said they will hold back some cash should they make the change...
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CU Guru [1346]
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Just a guess but big money donors may follow along
Jan 30, 2015, 4:08 PM
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Given the way "enforcement" of PC topics often works lately, if those who want the name change don't get their way, they could start a campaign against those big donors. And no doubt some of the bigger bucks come from institutions, foundations, and big business owners/executives. Many of them will want to avoid the "exposure". Just look at what the zealots did in California to those who supported the "wrong" side of the marriage topic. Just another guess, but I would bet the "external" forces behind the Tillman effort aren't to far removed from those zealots. If not by people in charge, at least in money sources.
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CU Medallion [55402]
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Re: Just a guess but big money donors may follow along
Jan 30, 2015, 5:45 PM
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That would almost ensure the loss of donations b/c money loss by someone exposing who are giving private donations.
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CU Guru [1346]
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It's difficult to hide donations to a public uni
Jan 30, 2015, 7:22 PM
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Maybe some people set up private foundations in Bermuda or the Caymans, or something like that. Getting that information is not hard.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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The "wrong" side of the marriage topic was driven by Mormons
Jan 31, 2015, 4:18 PM
[ in reply to Just a guess but big money donors may follow along ] |
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living in Utah dumping millions of dollars in California. So I guess you wouldn't mind Mormons in Utah buying laws here in South Carolina.
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Varsity [203]
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Re: More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 30, 2015, 5:10 PM
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its crazy that people complain bout a building thats been there for 100? yrs, but nobody said anything in columbia bout them naming the new fitness center at usuc after strom thurmond just a couple yrs back.
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Legend [17285]
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Is there a "Robert Cook Edwards" building on campus?***
Jan 30, 2015, 5:21 PM
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All-TigerNet [11963]
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Yes. Nursing building***
Jan 30, 2015, 6:04 PM
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110%er [8866]
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Re: More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 30, 2015, 11:25 PM
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This whole drama with special areas and renaming buildings is a crock. The professors should be put on notice or tired. Take that liberal crap to the west coast
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Legend [15492]
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Re: More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 30, 2015, 11:31 PM
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> This whole drama with special areas and renaming
> buildings is a crock. The professors should be put on
> notice or tired. Take that liberal crap to the west
> coast
Yeah, a lot of people just luv 'merica and it being a "free country".... right up until someone says something they disagree with and think they should be punished for it. The Constitution applies to everyone. Take that conservative crap to Russia. They punish people for speaking their beliefs.
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110%er [8866]
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Re: More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 31, 2015, 10:20 AM
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Your exactly right this is America and free speech. That's why the ridiculous demands will be listened to and not met. Now you go #### yourself
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Legend [15492]
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Re: More on the Tillman controversy
Jan 31, 2015, 3:17 PM
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> Your exactly right this is America and free speech.
> That's why the ridiculous demands will be listened to
> and not met. Now you go #### yourself
Lol. So it was YOU on the grassy knoll. Mystery solved.
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CU Medallion [51531]
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When I was in grad school many of my classmates did not attend
Jan 31, 2015, 7:31 AM
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Clemson for undergrad. Their allegiance was elsewhere (can't say I blame them, my undergrad experience made me a tiger for life). Also, this is the first time I've even heard of a graduate senate. These individuals voting on this issue and their decision to support renaming have no value to me. My question to this graduate senate is, where do your allegiances lie?
Bottom line: Tillman isn't being renamed. People can deal with it or go to school somewhere else.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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It's 2015, it's only a matter of time before it gets changed
Jan 31, 2015, 4:27 PM
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Clemson can't keep on pursuing more academic accolades, and have the most iconic building on campus named after a person who was a member of a white vigilante group that lynched people and assassinated a state senator.
I know you Lexingtonian's are stubborn into holding onto beliefs of the Old South, but it's 2015 not 1915. The Old South is dead, The New South is developing. The people who still believe in the Old South are dying off, and/or are becoming much smaller percentage of the South's population. South Carolina is already starting to change. The hispanic immigrants in South Carolina have already added onto and infused something new into the culture of South Carolina. The younger generation is whole lot more tolerant, and ignore the intolerance of their parents or grandparents or any other family members.
Yes, even in South Carolina, intolerance is being stomped out, no matter how some in South Carolina try to stop it.
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110%er [7831]
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if you're gonna go renaming buildings
Jan 31, 2015, 10:41 AM
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They should have to give the money back to families. Plus interest.
I suppose Clemson will have to be renamed too
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Did Thomas Clemson lynch people? No?
Jan 31, 2015, 11:35 AM
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Then go blow.
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CU Medallion [51531]
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You could use a good lynching, coot.***
Jan 31, 2015, 2:11 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Re: You could use a good lynching, coot.***
Jan 31, 2015, 3:13 PM
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What the heck were you degrees in, Bigotry and Hatred?
All change begins with a small minority.
The American Revolution.
Women's Right to Vote (Suffragette) Movement
The Civil Rights Movement
Integration
All change is begun by a minority, duh. What did you think, everyone woke up on a Thursday, sun was shining and the birds were singing and everyone at the same time said "Hey I know, let's let women vote"
The notion that an idea, because it is proposed by a minority is inherently bad, is distinctly Un-American.
Whatever you degrees are in, it certainly wasn't history.
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110%er [8866]
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Re: You could use a good lynching, coot.***
Jan 31, 2015, 3:18 PM
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In this pc generation where a few latch onto perceived slights regardless of the fact that these transgressions were well over 100 years ago. Tillman hall and all buildings at Clemson stand for the struggle to have the University built not. If these "special" groups would focus on the good of the University instead of a dead man this wouldn't even be known by today's students
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Legend [15492]
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Re: You could use a good lynching, coot.***
Jan 31, 2015, 3:30 PM
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There is no such thing as political correctness, the term is just a tool used by privileged white men to marginalize the legitimate arguments of the less-privileged.
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CU Medallion [51531]
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Joined: 8/10/04
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The only people deemed "privileged" in 2015 are people
Jan 31, 2015, 3:41 PM
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who are seen as "minorities."
Go to the US Post Office and try to get a job as a "privileged white" man, as you call it, and see how that fits into their "diversity quotas."
Applying to a college or university and need a scholarship? Maybe your SAT score isn't exactly where it should be? Well if you're a minority...don't sweat.
Being a minority in the US is an advantage and you're kidding yourself if you deny it.
...yet people still complain.
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110%er [8866]
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Re: The only people deemed "privileged" in 2015 are people
Jan 31, 2015, 3:57 PM
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Exactly all these "special" groups start out wanting equal rights but end up demanding special rights and special treatment. There should be no affirmative action and no quotas. Everyone shouodbe on a level playing field and you earn your place in the world whether in the classroom, workforce or social activities.
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Legend [15492]
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Posts: 18413
Joined: 12/10/14
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Re: The only people deemed "privileged" in 2015 are people
Jan 31, 2015, 4:38 PM
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I remember how resistant to change my father was. Long Hair, women not wearing bras, leaving Latin American countries alone, the idea that we shouldn't be in Vietnam. He had a hard time with all of that. Said people just "don't respect America anymore". He didn't like change, he didn't see how it would turn out so it scared him. He fought the Japanese and was afraid the next generation would screw it all up. He was, most assuredly, opposed to equal rights for all americans.
Perhaps now we are a little like that. I'm 60 and there are some things about change I don't like. But change is inevitable. Our kids will look back and wonder how our generation thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq (who had nothing to do with 9/11), or allow corporations and the ultra rich to overly influence our elections. They'll wonder how, since the end of WWII, more civilians across the world have died in various wars than both world wars combined. They'll wonder why we were involved in most of them.
Every generation makes mistakes. Every succeeding generation changes some things, but makes it's own mistakes. I tend to see it as inevitable and not worth the fight. The generation that named Tillman hall is the same generation that refused to allow black veterans who fought in WWII to enroll in Clemson. To you and I that makes no sense, to them it was the norm. If you and I had protested that then, we by today's "conservative" standards, would have been a trouble making minority and examples of political correctness. Or in other words they would have merely shrugged off our notions as not worthy of consideration. Those were U.S. Vets....like any other.
Times are going to continue to change my friends. It's just life.
Go Tigers!
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Being a minority is not an advantage....
Jan 31, 2015, 4:52 PM
[ in reply to The only people deemed "privileged" in 2015 are people ] |
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just take the recent shooting of a black man in Columbia from a now fired Highway Patrol man. If that was me who got pulled over, that cop would have never thought about pulling a gun on me. The now fired Highway Patrolman shot someone who didn't do anything wrong. And there was another black person in Columbia who recently was beat up by a cop.
Sorry it's not an advantage, when you have to worry about police brutality anytime you may have an interaction with a cop.
You're a fool if you think it's easier for a minority to get into college over a white person. You're just living in a fantasy world. The facts show that it's quite the opposite of what your backward Lexingtonian mind thinks.
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