|
Replies: 52
| visibility 3,806
|
All-TigerNet [10469]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7016
Joined: 5/14/01
|
Yet another school shooting
Oct 24, 2014, 4:13 PM
|
|
This one is in Seattle with two dead, including the shooter, and another three or four critically injured. All are said to be students.
|
|
|
|
 |
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
So this one isn't a drill like Sandy Hook has now
Oct 24, 2014, 4:29 PM
|
|
been discovered/admitted by the feds, just two months ago?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1101]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2011
Joined: 10/20/13
|
it was a drill?
Oct 24, 2014, 4:38 PM
|
|
what about the 20 kids that died?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Nobody died in that entire town that day.
Oct 24, 2014, 4:45 PM
|
|
Not ine person, in any fashion.
Google it.
The feds have just admitted the scam about two months ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
*one
Oct 24, 2014, 4:46 PM
|
|
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Oh boy... I tried to help you.***
Oct 24, 2014, 4:47 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: Oh boy... I tried to help you.***
Oct 24, 2014, 4:50 PM
|
|
Have you seen the photos of the "teacher" that died at Sandy Hook and the woman who has injured at the Boston boming? FOX News, I believe.
My they look identical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30593]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 28685
Joined: 8/17/05
|
you're on a roll
Oct 24, 2014, 4:53 PM
|
|
what's your theory?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: you're on a roll
Oct 24, 2014, 5:05 PM
|
|
My theory is that I don't trust the mainstream media that is owned by the same groups who buy "our" politicians.
And I don't expect anyone who accepts the propaganda machine to believe a private news outlet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
The mainstream media is not to be completely trusted.
Oct 24, 2014, 5:29 PM
|
|
But.... neither are random conspiracy websites that provide no real or convincing evidence.
The conspiracy you are talking about goes in the opposite direction of common sense on every conceivable level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30593]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 28685
Joined: 8/17/05
|
and that's probably putting it mildly***
Oct 24, 2014, 5:31 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2763]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4900
Joined: 9/10/05
|
I personally know two families that lost a child there moron
Oct 24, 2014, 7:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: you're on a roll ] |
|
This makes me too angry to even correspond on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: I personally know two families that lost a child there moron
Oct 24, 2014, 7:07 PM
|
|
Seen it reported three ways.
Very inconsistent with what was told by all the mainstream media, which is not releasing the full truth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17306]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7066
Joined: 12/14/98
|
Please tell me you do not hold a Clemson University degree.
Oct 25, 2014, 1:16 AM
|
|
SMH.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1101]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2011
Joined: 10/20/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1650]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 1909
Joined: 5/11/03
|
Re: you lost me at FOX news***
Oct 27, 2014, 6:29 AM
|
|
A lot of you have been listening and following Alex Jones and Breitbart too long. Take a break bc the truth is somewhere in the middle. Alex posted that Ebola was confirmed at GHS and that is incorrect. MSNBC and CNN give you the liberal narrative. Take it all with a grade of slaw and don't follow Anyjuan who is too far in one direction or you will become Schizo!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30593]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 28685
Joined: 8/17/05
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2663]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 4303
Joined: 1/4/07
|
A poster who truly should just be banned.
Oct 24, 2014, 9:51 PM
|
|
Even Daily Kos got to the point where they just immediately banned anyone offering up 9/11 as some kind of remote-detonation conspiracy theory. If they can do it, surely we can as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30593]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 28685
Joined: 8/17/05
|
don't hold back now
Oct 24, 2014, 5:33 PM
|
|
tell us what he should do
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: don't hold back now
Oct 24, 2014, 6:04 PM
|
|
I'll be waiting on you all's approval, cause y'all matter so much and all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10134]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8862
Joined: 7/20/12
|
^^^^like Obamas watered
Oct 24, 2014, 6:07 PM
|
|
Down approval rating .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: ^^^^like Obamas watered
Oct 24, 2014, 6:16 PM
|
|
Ha, I don't believe the two party B$ of the same bird we currently have going on.
Same lobbiest on both sides.
They are cystal transparent.
Start watching, keep notes, then look at the results.
The big agenda keeps moving forward from either or.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10134]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8862
Joined: 7/20/12
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
He would just answer that they are in on it.***
Oct 24, 2014, 6:16 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3194]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 3543
Joined: 11/21/11
|
Sandy Hook was a hoax
Oct 25, 2014, 5:13 AM
[ in reply to So this one isn't a drill like Sandy Hook has now ] |
|
He is right. I don't to post a bunch of facts but just look it up. You will be very surprised. I don't want to sound like a nut case, someone told me about this and I did my own research. What I found was sick. The things that our government is doing/hiding is unbelievable. I'm honestly scared to what this country will be in 10 yrs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3245]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7659
Joined: 9/21/13
|
Re: Yet another school shooting
Oct 24, 2014, 4:49 PM
|
|
When will they just let teachers carry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 4:56 PM
|
|
a bunch of teachers carry. Mental illness is the main problem behind school shootings and believe it or not teachers are screened for that less than cops.
That's coming from someone who has been a teacher and has a concealed carry licence.
Plus nothing is going to stop a psycho kid from killing 1 or 2 people unless the kid is caught in the planning phase. It's impossible to end school shootings all together. We can only hope to limit the number of deaths in each case.
As long as there are mentally ill people there will be senseless tragedies. Smaller magazine capacity and gun toting teachers wont stop it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
MVP [542]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 677
Joined: 10/13/02
|
Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 5:41 PM
|
|
It's simple, this fascist regime has been trying to take our guns since they took office...they know, the only chance for a left wing dictatorship is getting the guns...you stage and/or excute on some school shootings, etc. to win over he public to gun control, and voila. Keep in mind Hitler didn't murder one person in Germany until he had taken the guns...if every Jew and non Nazi had a gun (just one) the holocaust would have never happened.
Sadly these shootings and/or staged ones will continue to happen until we actually get back to the media being the 4th branch of Gov't, checking and reporting on any and all actions (good and bad)...right now we have essentially a modern day Pravda on our hands and the majority of people out there are clueless and believe whatever they see on the news (propaganda). If it wasn't for Fox News (coming from the right, side of Individual Freedom and Liberty) this country would already be a totalitarian police state (i.e. left wing gov't a la: communism, fascism, socialism, marxism, totalitarianism - the pillars and ideologies of the Left).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 5:52 PM
|
|
Oh boy.
I don't identify with any party because I think part of the problem with American politics and politics in general is that it doesn't work unless it's a "us vs. them" debate. Which in and of itself is unfortunate.
But the fact that you think Fox News does anymore for society than the other news outlets is silly. Their programming -- like that of MSNBC -- is total garbage on every level.
Real investigative journalism does happen -- but it's not happening on cable news.
And ironically, those publications that have at least tried to maintain traditional news standards and investigative angles are called "liberal" in discussions like these.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10134]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8862
Joined: 7/20/12
|
Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 6:00 PM
|
|
Quiet frankly I'm sick of the while right wing, left wing crap myself! Whats the point in separating and dividing yourselves before a leader is elected anyway. Wish there was a way to take whoever is in government now out and start from scratch. government terms were called terms for a reason, they never was meant to be careers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 6:08 PM
|
|
Bingo, but they are not. Well, without a complete tyrant take over.
The only way for the proper cleansing requires a fight by the people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10134]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8862
Joined: 7/20/12
|
Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 6:09 PM
|
|
Hard to get people to fight when most of them are reaping the benifits of the current administration!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2455]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5725
Joined: 12/27/05
|
Why limit it to the current administration?
Oct 25, 2014, 12:35 AM
|
|
The Bush presidency was an unmitigated disaster. Crippling debt, unnecessary war that we are still paying for, out of control spending even though he was supposed to be "conservative".
You people who live to bash just one "side" of the political spectrum are hilarious. Thinking that your "team" is better than the other. They both suck horribly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13605]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12897
Joined: 8/10/13
|
Re: Why limit it to the current administration?
Oct 25, 2014, 5:44 AM
|
|
Yep.
I can't remember an R or D presidency that wasn't a disaster in some way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Posts like this are the reason that anti-gun people think we
Oct 24, 2014, 6:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of ] |
|
are all crazy. Pardon the pun, but you are giving them ammo.
1. Fascism is right wing, not left.
2. The idea of a staged shooting is crazy enough that it should keep people who believe it from buying a gun.
3. The whole Hitler angle in the pro-gun argument is ignorant. The Nazi party was elected into power and before that there were plenty of anti-Jewish pogroms and murders. To say that the Holocaust wouldn't have happened if not for gun control is simply wrong. Holocausts would have happened a dozen times earlier in European history if populism ruled and the communications and transportation technology existed to efficiently kill that many people. The Third Reich actually relaxed some gun restrictions for most Germans (additional gun restrictions were put in place in 1928 [before Nazis] to prevent an armed insurrection) and later disarmed Jews in particular. Jews has everything taken away systematically, including guns. Even with guns the Holocaust would have happened. Many Germans at the time believed Jews were evil and they (Germans) supported actively or passively anything that removed Jews from society. If Germany could conquer most of Europe, who had armies, how could armed Jews defend themselves? Most of the Jews that Nazis killed were from outside of Germany anyway.
4. The media follows stories that they know will get attention. They cover gun control because it gets people fired up. Politicians promote gun control because they know it will make their base happy. Even though most of them realize it won't work, it's easy for them to appear decisive about saving children. Though we know it doesn't actually make kids safer, it allows left leaning politicians to accuse the republicans of not caring about the safety of children... which is bogus, but politically effective.
5. Pravda was ran by the government. There is a massive gap between the media's cooperation with the government today and with the propaganda branches of 20th century totalitarian states. TO equate the two is ridiculous ad you won't ever convince anyone who doesn't already erroneously agree with you. It doesn't help us keep our guns to say oversimplified crap like that. Our basic arguments are superior as it is. No need for the horse crap.
6. Fox News doesn't agree with individual liberty for non-Christians and homosexuals. They appeal to white conservative Christians who want their beliefs at the forefront of our federal government.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: Posts like this are the reason that anti-gun people think we
Oct 24, 2014, 6:30 PM
|
|
I just got back from living in Duetshland. Over there the look at anyone who is pro-gun as crazy.
It blow my mind how so many who are still giving tax money to the Jews for what Hitler was able to do as a tyrant to their country.
Seemed to me that they of all people would understand this importancy.
Another note is the murder rates are very close without guns.
I also have Australian friends whose country's murder rate number is similar. When they gave up their right to bare certain arms their other crimes increased.
Again, mind blown on how they also fail to see what has happened as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
*they...it blew my mind.***
Oct 24, 2014, 6:33 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
|
Re: In this country, the highest murder rates often correlate
Oct 24, 2014, 6:56 PM
|
|
Of course, because the criminals have the black market access that more than likely will never cease to exist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [39020]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 51623
Joined: 11/20/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Did I say that false flags don't happen?***
Oct 24, 2014, 7:31 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3245]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7659
Joined: 9/21/13
|
Re: I would rather officers be in schools instead of
Oct 24, 2014, 6:08 PM
[ in reply to I would rather officers be in schools instead of ] |
|
I'm glad you chimed in on this. I had thought about that so may I ask "What is keeping a mentally ill teacher from being the perpetrator of a school shooting as it is"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Not much, but a teacher who freaks out on kids without a
Oct 24, 2014, 6:14 PM
|
|
gun is much less stressful to me as a parent than a teacher who freaks out with a gun. Frankly, I don't trust teachers enough to trust them with a gun next to my kids.
Freakouts don't have to happen in pre-meditated fashion. Who knows how many times a gun being present has transformed a would-be beatdown into a murder.
I barely trust cops enough, but I want someone with a gun (or a few) protecting kids from potential psychos with guns. But letting teachers (without a intense specialized training) have guns around kids all day makes me uncomfortable.
Kids could take the gun from a teacher more easily than a trained officer of the law also.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3245]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7659
Joined: 9/21/13
|
Re: Not much, but a teacher who freaks out on kids without a
Oct 24, 2014, 6:42 PM
|
|
Your logic runs pretty close to the argument of whether or not people should be allowed to conceal carry period. Perhaps we should look at numbers on violent crimes committed against students by teachers to extrapolate the rate at which teachers would use a gun on student. I would say that the criminal shootings by people with concealed carry weapons is nearly non-existent so perhaps you could use those numbers as well.
Seems like too little research for something as important as our children's lives, just because of a fear of guns.
As for the children taking guns from teachers. I hadn't thought of that but it wouldn't be that hard to take care of that in a screening process. Not every teacher needs to have one. Some would probably volunteer to decline. Sick minds are targeting the places that they know offer no resistance. Just look at the theater shooting by "the joker" a couple of years ago. The killer drove past a theater with the same early showing of "the Dark Knight" just because it didn't have a restriction on concealed carry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I think we have to recognize that a school is a very
Oct 24, 2014, 7:30 PM
|
|
different environment than other scenarios.
As a libertarian I respect the rights of parents to make most of the decisions pertaining to their children. Parents who love guns like me, and parents who hate guns. While I believe that a person's right to defend themselves shall not be infringed in public, I want to protect the rights of parents who would not trust a non-cop to carry a gun around their children all day.
While it is true that a concealed carry person in any scenario could be disarmed, I believe that the odds of such an occurrence goes up at a school, where a population of children, especially troubled children are more likely to disarm an untrained teacher that they know to be carrying a firearm.
I trust myself to defend my own family when we venture out into public places. The government should never threaten that right for me or anyone else.
But the government must also protect the rights of those who wish (for right or wrong) to keep their children away from guns in their classrooms.
Teachers carrying guns are not going to fix school shootings, just as more gun control won't. In my opinion, teachers carrying guns will do more harm than good, for practical and psychological reasons. Teachers will be much more intimidating, whether they mean to be or not. Children will also necessarily have a different view of authority, that it is normal to have an armed authority around you all the time. This could lead to a society more lax about armed authority in other contexts.
Again the risk outweighs the reward to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3245]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7659
Joined: 9/21/13
|
Re: I think we have to recognize that a school is a very
Oct 24, 2014, 8:09 PM
|
|
Interested to know why you can assume it wouldn't fix school shooting. I don't think I patently asserted that it would make schools 100% safe from shooting. I do think there is enough evidence to show that schools and places like them are targeted because delinquents know there are no guns on property.
I should have been more clear. In the screening process perhaps weapons would only be distributed to those confident in their ability to protect themselves and their firearm. It shouldn't be easy for a person to disarm another of a weapon they don't even know that a teacher has let alone where it is exactly concealed.
The psychology angle is not one that I have thought of either. Again I think this is part of a reinforced culture that guns themselves are bad. How can you fear a teacher specifically with a weapon near your children? Especially more so than the threat of a terrorist targeting the school your child attends. Should you not already fear for your children in that situation? What exactly does a gun added to the situation change? Could not that same teacher stab, choke etc. a student if they were that deranged? If you don't feel safe with your children around teacher+gun why do you feel safe with your children around teacher-gun?
People that wouldn't otherwise commit violent crimes don't suddenly choose to take peoples lives simply because there is a gun available to them. So like I said we should look at the instances of violent crimes committed by teachers on students and compare to the amount of school shootings committed by anyone else to get a fair idea of the risk reward.
For example if once a year a teacher assaults a student and there are 6 school shootings a year. Does the risk out weigh the reward? This is assuming that everytime someone assaulted someone with a gun available to them, they would choose to use it instead only just assaulting someone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23420
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Re: I think we have to recognize that a school is a very
Oct 24, 2014, 9:43 PM
|
|
The reason a few teachers having guns won't stop school shootings is because it is impossible to stop an unexpected attack before anyone is killed if the attacker uses even the smallest bit of caution. This is clearly proven in every case where an armed person was killed before being able to defend themselves because the attacker concealed his intentions until it was too late. In any scenario that involved an armed response to an active shooter, I would much rather a highly trained professional be responsible for shooting at the assailant with kids present.
And schools are not targeted because there are no guns present, schools are targeted because classmates/children are the targets. There are armed guards at several schools that have seen school shootings.
And you said nothing of the right of parents who don't want their children being supervised by armed amateurs. It is hypocritical of us to believe it unacceptable for anti-gun people to take our gun rights away but then turn around and deny their right to send their kids to a school not filled with armed amateurs.
People that wouldn't otherwise commit violent crimes don't suddenly choose to take peoples lives simply because there is a gun available to them.
A person who is enraged may kill a person with the means to do so when that same person with the same rage would not kill a person without the means.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3245]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7659
Joined: 9/21/13
|
Re: I think we have to recognize that a school is a very
Oct 24, 2014, 10:04 PM
|
|
Well I would rather have a highly trained professional there too. But since the government can't or won't put armed guards at every school door would you rather a amateur shooting at the assailant or no one at all?
So does that establish that fewer armed people with good intentions is not an effective plan of attack? Certainly you average security guard or policeman has fired shots a paper targets before. Not to suggest that CWP holders are trained as well as policemen (both of my parents served in law enforcement) but I think it is a bit of cop-out (pun not intended) to call someone CWP certified an amateur. For one they must meet a standardized level of proficeincy with their weapon to receive certification. They aren't some schmo who doesn't know the barrel end of a gun or how to store their weapon.
Well what about the rights of parents that would prefer teachers be allowed to carry if certain parameters are followed?
You're basically saying "I'm too afraid of angry violent adults to allow teachers the tools needed to protect their students from other angry violent adults." Teachers we can screen and educate about weapon safety, psychopaths we cannot. We've already established that we cannot stop a premeditated shooting by a teacher from happening. It's isn't fun to think about but if a teacher flipped with a weapon in their back pocket they are likely to only shoot at the source of their anger. This ignoring the low instance of this happening with CWP holder's who commit violent crimes but do not use their weapon. This is far less potential loss of life than a killer bent on taking the most lives possible.
I guess I should ask "when is the last time you heard of a teacher taking a students life for any reason let alone premeditated murder"? Then when is the last time you heard about a killer entering a school building going classroom to classroom trying to take as many lives as possible with no opposition?
I must thank you for replying. This has been a very intersting philosophical back and forth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13605]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12897
Joined: 8/10/13
|
Re: I think we have to recognize that a school is a very
Oct 25, 2014, 5:42 AM
|
|
I'd think advertising that some in a school are armed WITHOUT advertising exactly WHO are armed, would deter some shootings.
Even if no one is truly armed, it would possibly deter some kids.
I just get angry when I see the "gun free" zone signs. You're actively advertising that hey no one is armed here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14233]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13983
Joined: 2/8/11
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6320]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5112
Joined: 7/19/13
|
How does this have one thing to do with Clemson football
Oct 24, 2014, 11:26 PM
|
|
Lounge is <<<<<<<<<< that way
Drudge report, CNN, Facebook, etc >>>>>>>>>>> that way....
Either way, this is Clemson football board.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 52
| visibility 3,806
|
|
|
50
