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All-In [28802]
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Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately
Sep 16, 2014, 12:48 PM
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Over the last few months, there's been a lazy narrative that a lot of people have fallen into here. I think it's mostly motivated by the desire to be optimistic about the team's future, but it's also entirely unnecessary to justify the desired optimism. What I'm talking about is the way many people think they need to bad mouth one player in order to argue that another player is good, as if a comparison was needed to demonstrate how good a particular player is.
The first time this happened, it was people almost immediately discounting Tajh Boyd's accomplishments in order to suggest that we wouldn't really lose anything when Cole Stoudt became the starter. So many on this board, and elsewhere, seemed to feel the need to focus on whatever weaknesses Boyd had so that they could believe Stoudt would be just as good as a guy who started for three years and threw for nearly 4,000 yards in each of those years while leading the team to one of its best three year records in its history. They seemed to be reasoning that if Stoudt wasn't as good, or better, than Boyd, then there was no reason for optimism. Stoudt was either a sure- fire NFL prospect, or he was nothing.
The truth was that Boyd was a great QB for Clemson, whatever his flaws, and that it was unfair to Stoudt and almost completely ignorant of the evidence to expect that he would be better than Boyd, or even to expect that he would be as crucial to the team as Boyd. Stoudt could only start for one year, and he was expected to be more of a game manager who kept us in games but who didn't do anything spectacularly bad or good. So the expectations set by Boyd for the QB position were always too high for a player who was expected to be a winner, but who wasn't going to be expected to win games almost on his own (see Boyd vs. LSU).
This skewed perspective leads right into the current fan and media-based "QB controversy." Coaches named Stoudt the starter because he was simply more ready to play, and more consistent, than either Chad Kelly or Deshaun Watson. But when Stoudt came out looking like the game manager that he is rather than the riverboat gambler that was Tajh Boyd, fans decided coaches must've been involved with some sort of conspiracy to keep Watson on the bench and to play Stoudt instead. Maybe Morris and Stoudt's father had made a deal. Maybe the coaches told Stoudt he would be the starter if he wouldn't transfer. Maybe the Illuminati teamed up with the Bilderburg Group to use the jet streams to manipulate our coaches into playing their Manchurian candidate. Or, maybe, the coaches were doing what they said they would do all along, which was playing Stoudt because he currently gives us the best chance to win, but also playing Watson because he can help us as well.
Yet fans, less interested in the boring truth and more excited about controversy/ conspiracy theories, have decided that what's plain simply can't be the case. Just like with Boyd/ Stoudt, some fans have decided that it isn't enough to talk about Watson's strengths, they also need to argue that Stoudt isn't any good and hasn't played any good. Coaches certainly don't think that Stoudt's played his way out of the starting role, and fans can see that, with the exception of the second half at UGa when nobody was playing well on offense, Stoudt hasn't done anything to be benched. And yet many are trying to use QBR numbers that simply aren't reliable at this point in the season (and which simply don't make much sense for particular games) to argue that Stoudt's been terrible, as if that somehow makes Watson better. Others, so invested now in Watson starting, almost seem to be hoping that Stoudt plays poorly in order to prove themselves right.
Maybe what we ought to do is calm down a little bit. Watson is a major talent who clearly has more potential than a one year starter who's expected to manage games. But that doesn't mean that Stoudt should be benched just yet. Let's at least see how he plays against FSU, and let's see how much more problematic positions look (OL, RB), before we decide a change in QB can make everything better.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately
Sep 16, 2014, 1:35 PM
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Sounds like you've made your mind up, and Cole Stoudt is just in there waiting a couple more games before we yank him. While I want to agree with all of this, it's somewhat of a back-handed compliment to Cole. For some reason, many fans think that DW is going to lead us to the Promised Land instantly. You all are going to be disappointed placing those high expectations on Watson. WHEN his time comes, then it will come. I'm certainly in no hurry to see that happen. We have plenty of ways to improve this team, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it.
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All-In [28802]
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Not at all
Sep 16, 2014, 3:02 PM
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I think Stoudt is who he is, and that's a guy who's probably not quite as talented at Watson but who is more ready to play. I think he's someone we can with this year, but if we don't get it done with Stoudt as the starter, we might want to let Watson get some playing time. By no means will I be upset if Stoudt is the starter throughout the season, because it will mean that he played well.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately
Sep 16, 2014, 1:45 PM
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I think some people take the coaches' comments at face value, and some tend to view a lot of what's being said as coachspeak. Others don't care about all that, and for them, it breaks down to what they see on gameday despite what goes on in practice from week to week.
I think MOST OF TIME, these aren't "conspiracy theories" at all but mere doubt in the way the coaches are communicating. I don't think anyone doubts the evaluation abilities of our coaching staff, but many have acknowledged that it's possible that some comments are strategically disingenuous for the purposes of seeing how the "battle" plays out. Make no mistake about it, the coaches have ensure that this is a "battle" by continually addressing the topic.
I'd like to note that the idea of "Cole was promised the starting position for a certain time in exchange for not transferring" isn't nearly outlandish enough to be viewed as a conspiracy theory. We're talking about subtle, under-the-table deals that are made at all levels of all sports all the time.
I certainly don't think there is a conspiracy, but I'm not afraid to acknowledge that their reasoning for starting Stoudt has been indicative of taking the path of least resistance in the early stages.
Anyone trashing Cole isn't to be taken seriously and needs to stop - the kid has given his heart to the program and deserves our respect. But at the same time, I don't feel that it makes me a bad fan to look at some of the coaches comments about the situation with skepticim.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Everybody believes what they want to believe here.
Sep 16, 2014, 2:01 PM
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I choose to believe our coaches when they say Cole has earned the starting job. I also choose to believe that Cole's down payment on starting was not refraining from transfer but rather his work ethic, knowledge of the play book and performance during practice and on the field. Shall we discuss his demeanor and leadership abilities or are you satisfied I have a measure of support for my beliefs?
I respect your opinion and expect a good healthy response.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Everybody believes what they want to believe here.
Sep 16, 2014, 2:17 PM
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Oh absolutely. You've been one of the more diplomatic members of Team Cole. I think his leadership abilities and experience are a valuable asset for the football team as a whole.
And there's no reason for me to expect OTHERS to harbor the same skepticism for what the coaches say that I do. I just tend to err on the side of caution in taking what they say at face value --- especially in an instance like this.
Couple that with the fact that there's really not a scenario where the coaches could say "Watson is the better player and gives us a better chance to win" this early in the season and not experience just as much backlash as they are now. They're in a no-win in a lot of ways, and I do commend them for at least trying to address it.
If I sounded condescending in my initial response, that was definitely not my intention. I've tried to be patient with folks who don't share my views because their position is valid in a lot of ways and it's completely understandable to go with the coaches in this scenario.
And while I normally do just that, I'm confident enough in my knowledge of the game that I FEEL that what I'm hearing is the coaches take a path of least resistance, especially when juxtaposed with the fact that Watson frankly looks like he's been in the system for 3 years (Occam's Razor here --- I'm not commenting on how much of the playbook he may or may not know). Nothing wrong with supporting the coaches, I'm just looking a little ahead right now.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Frankly, I wonder how long I can hold out in the CS camp.
Sep 16, 2014, 4:57 PM
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I can probably defend your position as well as mine. I firmly believe that two more games will tell the tale about this issue. I think there are a variety of reason to use both QBs right not not the least being having both experienced in case either need to shoulder the load.
I fully expect DW's role in the upcoming game to be equal to Cole's and I'd guess the reason for that is we need either to be comfortable being taken out of the game at any time. Matter of fact, that probably the reason Cole will have as much time on the field as he will get at Doak.
The biggest hurtle for fans is the two week wait to see this develop. Had we played last weekend, won or loss, this thing would be starting to settle down some.
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CU Guru [1142]
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Re: Everybody believes what they want to believe here.
Sep 16, 2014, 11:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Everybody believes what they want to believe here. ] |
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Dabo is giving Cole every possible opportunity to lead the team. None of us knows what the coaching staff sees at practice every day. Is Watson a very talented kid? No doubt, but like you said, we don't know how much of the offense/playbook he feels comfortable with, or how well he actually can pick up defensive schemes and disguised blitzes for an entire game. I'm confident that Dabo and Chad both feel like they have a pretty good handle on the situation. You're right, Dabo and Chad are in a no win situation with Tiger fans on this issue, regardless of which way they turn.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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the battle started in spring, 3 quarterbacks involved. it's
Sep 16, 2014, 3:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately ] |
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continued throughout the summer and into the fall eventhough they say cole won the job in spring.
the coaches have said "there is no lifetime contract" and it's cole's job to maintain which he must do each week.
this battle is not new and they have been open about it since saying what a special player dw is and that he would not have rs even if ck was still here.
anything else, fabricated, perceived or other, is on the masses.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: the battle started in spring, 3 quarterbacks involved. it's
Sep 16, 2014, 3:34 PM
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You're way down here so I can't quite tell if your'e responding to me.
But yes, I'm willing to call my own biases fabrications/perceptions in light of the way things have gone. Specifically because I couldn't have seen it going any other way. And because I'm willing to accept being wrong should Cole come out and start lighting it and proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that he gives us the best chance to win.
I think this is a unique situation and that anyone other than DW wouldn't cause this problem. I just happen to think he's look good enough to open up the "race" (whether or whether not the "race" nominally exists) a little more. Specifically if Cole ever struggles.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i think much of this would exist with any other talented qb
Sep 16, 2014, 3:55 PM
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because of the situation, almost certainly if it was a dual threat option such as dw[cause different]; we had no returning starter on the roster & the starter we now have is gone after this year.
they have ballyhooed from the get go dw being "just that good, even special" and they welcomed the competition; they have lauded it in fact. and it should be that way, no? it makes everyone better.
if dw overtakes cole, god bless him; i have no horse in this other than clemson "winning" on and off the field. the team and coaches will know long before either of us should dw overtake cole.
the coaches say there's no controversy, because it was lay out for the participants prior. cole knows this, dw knows this. anything else from the outside is on anyone wishing to read more into it. that choice falls on those doing so.
i do understand some of the yearning or longing, it's what fans do.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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That's probably not going to happen.
Sep 16, 2014, 5:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: the battle started in spring, 3 quarterbacks involved. it's ] |
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Deep down in my heart (head) I know that option read is the key to this offensive scheme. I've seen Cole attempt it a couple of time and it ain't pretty. We all know Cole will not maintain his lead role much longer though I do not believe he will lose the starting job this season. I think he is good enough that it will become trivial who actually starts and DW will without a doubt take the majority of snaps this season.
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Orange Blooded [1051]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately
Sep 16, 2014, 9:45 PM
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Yes, because one must absolutely be a coach to talk about college football.
SMDH at this idiot.
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CU Guru [1537]
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Well said. Misspelled "Bored".***
Sep 16, 2014, 4:34 PM
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Commissioner [905]
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Both Boyd and Stoudt are good but Watson is better :)
Sep 16, 2014, 4:38 PM
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Much better 
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Hall of Famer [24169]
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Marlborocountycapon = tigerfanjack
Sep 16, 2014, 7:34 PM
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smh
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Oculus Spirit [83000]
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Finally you use that great writing ability to debate
Sep 16, 2014, 5:05 PM
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an important topic instead your usualy political debates that I've been on the short end of for so many years.
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110%er [7148]
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dang that is a lot of words***
Sep 16, 2014, 7:55 PM
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Legend [17522]
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Hyperbole: exaggerated statements
Sep 16, 2014, 8:33 PM
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Tigernet posts are pure hyperbole and embellishments, in most cases, not meant to be taken literally.
I appreciate the thought you put into your post, and it has some merit. I agree with many of your points, but there are a few areas I see with a different slant.
- Tajh was a very good college QB with great talent around him. That said, I completely support the coaches giving Cole an opportunity to win and hold the position. My heartburn is with Dabo's and Chad's "conservative game-mgr mentality" in the 2nd half of the UGA game. It was poor coaching with predictable results. We cannot win games against talented teams with predictable play calling. Not against UGA, and not against FSU or SC. We sent Cole to a gun fight with a pocket knife in the 2nd half.
- That begs the question, with our huge recruiting edge against the balance of our schedule, should Tiger fans accept and be excited about drubbing low quality competition? That proposition is hard to get excited about. Against our schedule and with our recruits, 9-3 is average. As you state, this causes our fans to resist and question "the boring truth"; therefore, the hyperbole begins.
- This is much more about coaching philosophy than Cole Stoudt. Our coaches talk up the benefits of players coming to Clemson in Jan, but the learning curve is often not being put to use on the field. Example 1 is RB: Wayne Gallman. He should have been the starter in Game 1 if the objective was to beat UGA. If we opened with SC State, Dabo and Chad could have stuck with tried-and-true old school coaching philosophy to play the less talented senior. It does not work against UGA, FSU or SC. Richt and Bobo understood Chubb and Michel were needed to provide fresh legs and spell Gurley. Dabo and Chad did not. Bad coaching decision. Chubb and Michel came to UGA after Gallman arrived at CU. If Dabo and Chad refuse to play more talented underclassmen in Game 1, Rad needs to eliminate playing quality teams in Game 1 and open with the SC State's of the world.
- Finally, our Tigers played one of their all time best games against LSU two yrs ago and played strong games last year against UGA and OSU. "Pulling a Clemson" is becoming defined as completely quitting when the game outcome is no longer in play. In the dreadful WVA Orange Bowl three years ago, last year's FSU game, and this year's UGA game, our Tigers packed it in when there was no chance to win and frankly quit on the field. I am looking for Dabo to change that mindset. We can play strong for four quarters, win or lose, or accept the fair criticism for quitting on the field. No matter what the score is against FSU, I am hoping our players maintain composure and play their hardest for 60 mins. Then we will be winners no matter the score.
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Walk-On [121]
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Re: Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately
Sep 16, 2014, 8:43 PM
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It's called a post, not a novel. Come on... Weak, really
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Couple of trends I've noticed on the board lately
Sep 16, 2014, 9:49 PM
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Did someone make you read it? Poor thing.
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Orange Blooded [2702]
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Very well said
Sep 16, 2014, 10:01 PM
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It is naive to think that the coaches don't have the best interest in mind with all position decisions. Watson's talent is undeniable but at this point we only have his limited game experience to go on. Impressive, but not the entire story.
With that said, as he gets more experience, I fully expect him to start by years end. He'll be ready sooner than later.
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