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YOUR BALANCE
Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?
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Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 4:28 PM

Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?

TigerNet takes a look at the the state of the ACC in this mid-season thoughts article, as well as a few other odds and ends. Included: Is the ACC really as bad as we think? It might just be. Full Story »


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It is***


Oct 8, 2012, 4:34 PM



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yes it is...easy answer to your question***


Oct 8, 2012, 4:35 PM



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Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports


Oct 8, 2012, 4:35 PM

staying in this minor league.

And I think EVERYONE involved in OKing the increased buyout to $50M should be fired. Just a horrible horrible horrible decision.

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Re:You p---ing in the wind.***


Oct 8, 2012, 4:38 PM



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Re: wow and I thought I had Swoff-esque angst


Oct 8, 2012, 4:42 PM [ in reply to Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports ]

I hate the ACC too but what league do we go to? SEC doesnt want us. Big 12 either plus that doesnt make sense.

I agree on the buyout. And I think the ND tthing is desperation and will be a big nothing football wise

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There's no telling where we could have gone


Oct 8, 2012, 4:46 PM

as realignment continues over the next year or 2 but the buyout insures that we aren't going anywhere.

And beating Duke, BC, UMd, etc... won't help us climb the rankings.

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Re: There's no telling where we could have gone


Oct 8, 2012, 4:55 PM

/\ /\ /\
DITTO! Just look at this AP poll...Beat GA Tech & drop a spot!

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Si vis pacem, para bellum (if you want peace, prepare for war)
USMC 1980-83
-Camp Lejeune
-Beirut, Lebanon
SC National Guard 1983-2018


Re: There's no telling where we could have gone


Oct 8, 2012, 6:30 PM

It's the AP poll!!!

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Re: There's no telling where we could have gone


Oct 8, 2012, 6:01 PM [ in reply to There's no telling where we could have gone ]

well face it. We couldn't have gone anywhere without an invite. Don't think anyone can produce evidence that we got one from anywhere. So "what if" needs to stop. We just have to take care of business and be a big fish in a small pond.

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Re: There's no telling where we could have gone


Oct 8, 2012, 6:11 PM

Could Clemson have gone Independent for a year before we signed a 50 mil buy out clause. Just asking b/c I really don't know.

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Re: We have our Pres and the BOTs to thank for this debacle


Oct 8, 2012, 7:05 PM [ in reply to There's no telling where we could have gone ]

Bunch of short-sighted, self centered idiots!

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Really? You telling me it isn't great in John "Bozo the


Oct 8, 2012, 4:50 PM [ in reply to Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports ]

Clown" Swofford's ACC football paradise?

What????????????????????????? :)


Message was edited by: AThomas®


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Has a Commish ever been impeached?


Oct 8, 2012, 5:17 PM

Now would be a good time to do it. Everyone knows that football brings in the money. Start creating incentives for the better football programs to earn a higher percentage of the shared revenue, and you will see some improvement across the board!

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Re: Has a Commish ever been impeached?


Oct 8, 2012, 6:34 PM

not by any fans :)

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Win it and go to Orange Bowl (if not NC game)....not bad.***


Oct 8, 2012, 5:05 PM [ in reply to Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports ]



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Re: Win it and go to Orange Bowl (if not NC game)....not bad.***


Oct 8, 2012, 6:04 PM

We are trapped in a $50 mil hole that we will never be able to climb out of. The acc B O T's set a trap and our B O T's stepped dead in it. Swofford has set in his office and laughed his A$$ off this whole season knowing that none of us, FSU, Clemson, GT, VT none of us can do a ### thing about it. He got us!!!

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Re: Won't happen this year. I believe the OB is hosting the


Oct 8, 2012, 7:08 PM [ in reply to Win it and go to Orange Bowl (if not NC game)....not bad.*** ]

NC game.

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Re: Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports


Oct 8, 2012, 8:54 PM [ in reply to Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports ]

And was not our prez the head cheerleader in promoting this debacle?

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OMG, I just got loathed! We are


Oct 9, 2012, 12:36 AM [ in reply to Yes it is and I loathe every Tiger fan that supports ]

in the ACC for better or worse - ND coming in will be a plus. But the endless whining about it does no good.

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Re: OMG, I just got loathed! We are


Oct 9, 2012, 12:18 PM

OMG!!! Finally a little bit of sense here!
Whining about things you have no power to change is completely moronic and counter productive.

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 5:26 PM

We're stuck in the ACC, so not much we can do but moan-and-groan forever about it. Yes - the ACC is that bad. And CLEMSON lost to the only ACC team the nation thought was worth a chit. There will be NO undefeated teams in the ACCCG - and the season is young. Meanwhile, the SEC has 4 undefeated teams, the Big 12 has 2 (1 of them the ACC wouldn't let in), the Pac-12 has 2, the Big East has 3, and even the 4 Independents has 1. I won't get into the WAC, etc because it's too sad.

Anyway - CLEMSON just needs to win, and try to dominate this "average" conference. We have made our bed.

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The ACC is irrelevant in football again this year.


Oct 8, 2012, 5:34 PM

If we get lucky enough to win out (doubtful), we don't want no rematch with West Va. anywhere. They might hang 70 on us again.

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Re: The ACC is irrelevant in football again this year.


Oct 8, 2012, 6:13 PM

The way Geno is playing right now. Maybe 100!!!

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 5:34 PM

The winner of the ACC will once again be known nationwide as the tallest midget.

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 5:41 PM

I've been saying for years that the conference is a joke. I had hoped that by adding VT, FSU and Miami, that the ACC would be able to hold its own, but those teams have played down to the competition.

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Bottom line, though, remains


Oct 8, 2012, 5:49 PM

Clemson can do absolutely nothing to influence the other ACC members to start paying more than lipservice to their football programs. WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT THEY DO!!!

Folks have got to stop focusing on the ACC and whether or not its a good football conference or not and start focusing on the things the Tigers actually CAN take care of.....beating the next team on our schedule.

And skru the ACC. They've never done Clemson any favors.

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they've never done us any favors yet WE agreed to an


Oct 8, 2012, 9:36 PM

increased buyout.

It's mind-boggling to think that our leaders agreed to this. It was/is painfully obvious to anyone that keeps up with college football that Clemson and FSU held some power in the threat that other conferences would come after us. Even if we wanted to stay in the ACC, we could've and should've held on to that power to help us negotiate deals in our favor in the future.

WE GAVE IT AWAY! Suks!!!

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 6:16 PM [ in reply to Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad? ]

Absolutely, just as we do. Put Clemson in the sec, and we would play like an sec team. We have the talent, so I do believe that.

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 6:41 PM

I have said for a long time that had Clemson got the invite to join the SEC 20 years ago (not that it would have been accepted back then), there would be at least 2 SEC championship banners in Pickens County.

It took SCAR 20 years but the SEC has forced that program to improve and now there is NC talk. Clemson was already SEC competitive in 1992 and would have only gotten better over the years instead of worse. The SEC simply attracts better coaches and better players top to bottom in that league.

Also, had Clemson been in the SEC for the last 20 years the team would look a lot more like a Danny Ford team today instead of a Big 12/Pac 12 team. Tough, hard nosed offenses based in a running game and tremendous defenses with power and speed - that is what the championship teams in the SEC are doing. Does that sound like a Ford team to you?

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Well, let's ALSO look at the SEC


Oct 8, 2012, 6:08 PM

Arkansas - preseason #10, sucks!
Auburn - preseason #24, not so good either!
LSU - preseason #3, lost to Florida who is definitely just rebuilding! LSU beats The Coots handily this weekend!
Georgia - preseason #6, certainly overrated and now want to fire their coach...rightfully so!
Florida - good but, again, rebuilding!
TN - naw, not in the next 2 or 3 years are they any good.
Vandy, KY, Mizzou, Ole Miss - really!
Miss St, A&M, Coots - Much improved but each will have 3 losses by end of year.
Bama - real deal but Oregon can take them out!

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the SEC is still much better than ..


Oct 9, 2012, 8:46 AM

the ACC. LSU, UF, UGA, USC, Bama would all win the ACC or at least finish second. The ACC is just awful and there is no defending it.

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Re: Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 6:19 PM

We have the talent at the offensive skill positions but no o or d line and not enough depth to be competitive.

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Been thinking about our conference situation


Oct 8, 2012, 6:42 PM

In particular what the perception was back in the eighties and even before. Bottom line to an discussion is any team stands on its own when determ

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Been thinking about our conference situation


Oct 8, 2012, 6:48 PM

In particular what the perception was back in the eighties and even before. Bottom line to an discussion is any team stands on its own when determining how good or bad it is. Win all your games and your perception goes up. Lose and lose your perception as a contender. My opinion.......just win. Every thing else doesn't matter.

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Re: Been thinking about our conference situation


Oct 8, 2012, 6:57 PM

Conference alignment these days are 50% of what matters. ESECPN and ABC has made ### sure they have protected their investment in the SEC.

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 6:59 PM

If it is really that bad we should be winning it every year, not once in 20 years. When we can win it every year like FSU used to, then we could talk about how bad it is with credibility.

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David Hood


Oct 8, 2012, 7:16 PM

whats happen to the ACC?

Are you serious...
its the same thing its always been!
Quite simply, this "IS" and always has been a BB
conference,sorry.
When has the ACC ever been good in fb?
#21

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So Dabo isn't a great coach for winning 7th ranked 2011 ACC?


Oct 8, 2012, 8:17 PM

Ironically, Dabo-worshippers seem to agree that the ACC stinks but then laud Dabo because he won the crappy ACC in 2011, (thanks in large part to FSU's QB & 5 key players being out). But then when Dabo faced good non-con teams (SCar & WVU) Clemson got spanked badly, but that's OK.

In 2011, the ACC's Sagarin ranking was 7th, which was the worst it had been in over a DECADE, and which is even worse than it is now (6th). (Data below.)

I'm not calling for Dabo's head or anything, and I'm happy Clemson won the weakest ACC in over a decade but I hate to see people using the ACC as a measuring stick for success. When I look at Dabo's results using a national measuring stick, not an ACC measuring stick, I see similar results to the latter Bowden years. It feels like things are heading in the right direction, but I want Clemson to be a nationally relevant (perennial Top 25, regular Top 12-ish, occasional NC-hunt) team that can go toe-to-toe with the non-con big boys and win at least half of such games.

Winning percentage:
Bowden last 3 full seasons: 66%.
Swinney first 3 full seasons: 61%.

Versus non-conference AP Top 25 FINAL poll:
Bowden: 1-8.
Dabo: 0-5.
(Ford: 5-7.)

Versus SCar:
Bowden last 3 full seasons: 2-1.
Swinney first 3 full seasons: 0-3.

AP final poll rank. (i.e. national perspective)
2011: #22
2010: unranked
2009: #24
2008: unranked (Bowden -> Dabo transition)
2007: #21
2006: unranked
2005: #21

Record in upset games:
Dabo is 3-9 (.250) in “upset games”. Not sure what Tommy’s record was but I doubt it was much different.

2009: 1-3 in upsets.
* We upset Miami, a 4-pt favorite but won by 3 pts (4/3)
* We were upset by TCU (2/4), UMD (12/3), & SCar (3/17).
2010: 0-3 in upsets.
* We upset nobody.
* We were upset by UMD (14/24), BC (7/6), & USF (5/5)
2011: 2-3 in upsets.
* We upset VT twice (7/20) & (7/28).
* We were upset by GT (4/14), NCSU (7.5/24), & WVU (3.5/37).

ACC’s conference SOS Sagarin rankings:
2012: 6 (currently)
2011: 7
2010: 4
2009: 4
2008: 3 TB -> DS transition.
2007: 5
2006: 5
2005: 4
2004: 2
2003: 1
2002: 1
2001: 4

Rivals recruiting class rank:
2012: #14
2011: #8
2010: #19
2009: #37 TB -> DS transition class
2008: #12
2007: #16
2006: #16
2005: #17

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Re: So Dabo isn't a great coach for winning 7th ranked 2011 ACC?


Oct 8, 2012, 8:47 PM

Look at all those stats.

Stats are worthless. I heard that in a statistics class once.

I'll just give you one example: Tb versus SC would also be 0-3 the last 3 years and you very selectively excluded Dabo's only win vs SC

Lies and stats go hand in hand.

The only number(s) that matters is W/L and number of Championships.

But carry on...

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You deny actual data but concoct hypothetical TB vs SC stat?


Oct 8, 2012, 9:07 PM

That's funny.

I chose TB's and Dabo's FULL YEARs because it's fair to both of them since neither really got to run the team for a season. If you want to give Dabo credit for the 2008 win with Bowden's players & DC, then we should back Bowden's record up one more SCar game. Then Dabo is 1-3, and Bowden is 3-1. Does that W/L comparison make you feel better about Dabo?

In your opinion, W/L against the pathetically weak ACC and championships in the pathetically weak ACC are the only stats that matter. I respectfully disagree.

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Re: You deny actual data but concoct hypothetical TB vs SC stat?


Oct 8, 2012, 9:30 PM

Example Two:

Dabo having TB's players and DC

Or

TB playing lesser SC teams

They are both argumentative and not facts. You just present the one that fits your argument when in reality both are just as relevant, or irrelevant for that matter.

We can do this all night. The ACC has been bad this year, but Wake Forest won it when TB couldn't. So, again, how bad was the ACC then?

We can do this all night, but the wins and losses are what matters.

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W/L percentage all that matters? Then TB >= Dabo.


Oct 8, 2012, 11:43 PM

I'm not claiming that Bowden was better than Dabo. I'm saying that Dabo's and TB's results are similar if you use a national measuring stick.

Sure Dabo has faced tougher SCar teams and so he lost more. Maybe Tommy would have too. So does that mean we've improved nationally under Dabo? No. It means SCar has improved, in part because they hired a national championship HOF coach. Clemson remained about the same. And that's EXACTLY MY POINT!

For years, Tommy also faced a tougher ACC (according to Sagarin) and a tougher Wake Forest in 2006 than Dabo. Unlike Dabo in 2011, Tommy never had the chance to win a 7th ranked ACC. But Tommy (in his last 3 years) had a higher win percentage than Dabo (in his first 3 years). No marked improvement. So if W/L is the only measuring stick that you care about, then Bowden was better than Dabo.

If you think it's just my bias, look at how the AP voters viewed Clemson in Tommy's last 3 years and Dabo's first 3. Clemson finished similary but Tommy actually had slightly better rankings. Not much difference. Fringe Top 25 team.

If W/L and conference championships are all that matters then maybe we should join the Sun Belt Conference. We'd never be in the Top 25, but we'd be stellar by your yardstick.

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Just saying, but SC has had more than one National


Oct 9, 2012, 12:39 AM

Championship winning coach in the past. Ask Paul Dietzel and Lou Holtz how that helped.

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Re: W/L percentage all that matters? Then TB >= Dabo.


Oct 9, 2012, 6:19 AM [ in reply to W/L percentage all that matters? Then TB >= Dabo. ]

Brutal Razz, brutal. How many years at SCAR did it take SS to get to where he is? I know you know. Also, did you watch the SCAR/Georgia game. In the pre-game, I knew the crowd was not going to let the ##### lose. Man-o-man, it was electric (240hz my engineering friend). They were cycling!! Please find something positive for me in your bag-o-stats :)

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Want a good stat? We're 5-1 and hope lives.


Oct 9, 2012, 12:13 PM

Spurrier took over a historically weak, unranked, SEC-bottom-feeding, pile of trash. Dabo took over an upper-ACC, regularly ranked program. I think it's fair to expect Spurrier to take more time to change the culture and build up SCar into a ranked team-- which he has. (SCar finished 2011 ranked #9.) When SCar hired Spurrier, I hoped he would get frustrated and quit or get head-hunted away because I was thought that if he stayed at SCar (and we had a Bowden-level coach), the balance of power would shift to SCar. Unfortunately, it seems that I was right, but hopefully it's just a temporary blip.

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Probably won't make alot of fans happy


Oct 9, 2012, 8:51 AM [ in reply to So Dabo isn't a great coach for winning 7th ranked 2011 ACC? ]

but,its true.

But its gotta start at winning the games you're suppose
to win...the Wakes, Dukes,etc..
then you can tackle the bigger teams.



good post^

#21

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 10:23 PM

WORSE!!!

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When the SEC teams start losing in the coming weeks


Oct 8, 2012, 10:26 PM

Then this will be a wash...

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 8, 2012, 10:50 PM

The Big 12 is 5-1 versus other AQ conferences.
The Pac 12 is 5-3 versus other AQ conferences.
The SEC is 4-5 versus other AQ conferences.
The ACC is 5-10 versus other AQ conferences.

The SEC doesn't get out much. When they get out, they lose a good bit.

Harley

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Re: Front Page Story: Midseason thoughts: Is the ACC really this bad?


Oct 9, 2012, 11:00 AM

They also play 8 home games. So, they don't get out much and they don't leave home much either . . . why don't we just do the same?

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Overall... The Conference Really Sucs!


Oct 8, 2012, 11:20 PM

for Football that is .... other Sports, pretty good

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ACC is just inconsistent. Teams play there best game one


Oct 9, 2012, 12:25 AM

week, and get eked out by another team who does the same thing the next.

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Re: ACC is just inconsistent. Teams play there best game one


Oct 9, 2012, 12:31 AM

That's called Parrot Tea.
:)

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Maybe it is, but let's look at the SEC (as many are doing):


Oct 9, 2012, 11:40 AM

SEC EAST
Florida looks pretty good so far, but time will tell. South Carolina looks good, but haven’t played anyone except Georgia – who is not a good football team, I don’t care what anyone says. Georgia’s defense is awful, they are sloppy on offense and their schedule looks like a Big East schedule – they don’t play LSU, Bama, or A&M from the other division and Florida and Scar are the only two ranked teams with a winnning record that they have – and we saw how one of those turned out, they could end up being the worst 10-2 team ever (still think GT could beat them considering that awful D). Tennessee has some athletes, but are poorly coached and 3-2 – likely losing their next 3. Then there is Kentucky, Vandy, and Mizzou. No need to elaborate.

SEC WEST
Alabama is a good team, but they haven’t really been tested – with only a questionable win over a (currently) 3-2 Michigan team to show for anything. LSU doesn’t look great – opening schedule North Texas, Washington, Idaho, Auburn, Towson (who put up 22 points on them and a good fight) then got beat by Florida. Miss. State has surprised a lot of people being 5-0 but also haven’t played anybody (see the theme here) – Jackson State, Auburn, Troy, South Alabama, and Kentucky. Texas A&M lost to Florida but ALSO hasn’t played a team with a winning record. And then there is the jokes that are Arkansas, Auburn, and Ole Miss.

I'm just tired of hearing about the 'Almighty' SEC, this is college football - teams get 4 out of conference games which (in most cases) consist of (maybe) one traditional rivalry and 3 cupcakes at the beginning of the season that lead to a 3 to 4 win stretch to open the season and a top 25 ranking. It is not until bowl season that we get an IDEA of how good a conference really is. Tired of this whole 'the almighty SEC beats up on each other' - no, they don't. Sorry, just not seeing anything spectacular standing out about the SEC this year and yet it still gets all the 'hype'. Sorry, but I had to vent.

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Re: Maybe it is, but let's look at the SEC (as many are doing):


Oct 9, 2012, 11:46 AM

Agree 100%

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Re: Maybe it is, but let's look at the SEC (as many are doing):


Oct 9, 2012, 12:32 PM [ in reply to Maybe it is, but let's look at the SEC (as many are doing): ]

Thank you very much. That was an excellent rant and quite correct, too.
Power in conferences comes and goes and just because the ACC has been going through a decade long slump, it most likely won't last that much longer and who knows what will shake out over the next few years.
For all of those who keep saying the Clemson administrators gave away the farm with the 50M dollar buyout, what makes you think they just went along with it? There are 14 votes and if Clemson and FSU were the only 2 no votes, what were they supposed to do, quit the conference now and try to go independent? Talk about killing a program. No one, not even Notre Dame can go independent now, which is why they agreed to play 5 ACC games a year to seal the deal with the ACC.

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Since when does the quality of Clemson football


Oct 9, 2012, 1:03 PM

have ANYTHING to do with the strength of the ACC? The ACC has been weak overall in football since I was a kid in the 70's, a Clemson student in the 80's, a young adult in the 90's and 00's. It'll probably be weak as I slowly (I hope!) fade into oblivion.

I don't give a crap about how good the ACC is. I'd like to get back to the 80's when we win the league every year, have a chance at national titles and BCS (New Years Day back then) bowl games. If we go 10-2, 11-1, or 12-0 vs. a down ACC, those things will be there for us. Let UNC, Wake, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, and the rest of them look forward to basketball during the fall as they watch Clemson (and maybe FSU / GT) dominate the league year after year. Sounds like a fine model to me.

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I think most Tiger fans would agree....


Oct 9, 2012, 1:56 PM

We do not have to be in the best conference to be the best team in the state or nation. I was a CU student during the probation and I wanted to tell the ACC to shove it. But despite my lingering distaste for it, we are in the ACC for good. From an all-sports perspective, we could not do much better. How many programs out there would trade with us?

Us football junkies are hungry. We are like a pack of real tigers with half full (or half empty) stomachs. If our bellies were full, we would not be snapping at each other, or our coaches.

We have spent two decades mostly just inside or just outside the Top 25. We all want to know if we are moving up are just treading water. We need to keep winning our mediocre conference and start winning out of conference. I think our coaches can do that. We will know in a few years. I guess my stomach is half full.

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