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Replies: 21
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Leggett/Wilhelm comparisons
May 24, 2011, 11:27 PM
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Since Blue Caddy wanted to make some comparisons, I've decided to play devil's advocate and show Leggett's side. Leggett's 17 years vs Wilhelm's last 17 years. Leggett has taken us to 16 NCAA tournaments in his 17 years including 14 in a row. Wilhelm took us to 12 in his last 17 years including 7 in a row. If you look at the yearly records and finishes it looks like Leggett has taken a good program and made it more consistent. I also have both coaches ACC records those years as well as the number of ACC teams ranked in the final polls. As you can see the ACC has been much, much stronger under Leggett and the Tigers play a lot more conference games each year. How anyone can have any gripes about Leggett is absolutely beyond me!
17 years pre-Jack vs. 17 years of Jack
Wilhelm's last 17 years:
Yr Record Postseason Final Rank
93 45-20 lost knoxville regional ranked #16
92 50-14 lost starkville regional ranked #7
91 60-10 cws ranked #4
90 43-23 lost austin regional not ranked
89 50-20 lost tallahassee regional ranked #14
88 54-14 lost new brittain regional ranked #15
87 54-14 lost huntsville regional ranked #10
86 42-21 none not ranked
85 36-20 none not ranked
84 38-17 none not ranked
83 30-20 none not ranked
82 37-22 none not ranked
81 34-24 lost clemson regional not ranked
80 38-21 cws ranked #4
79 40-15 lost miami regional ranked #9
78 39-14 lost miami regional ranked #25
77 42-10 cws ranked #5
Total=711-289, Avg of 44-18
3 CWS appearances, 12 NCAA tourney appearances
1 CWS appearance last 10 years
Jack's 17 seasons:
10 45-25 cws ranked #4
09 44-22 lost tempe super ranked #14
08 31-27 none not ranked
07 41-23 lost baylor super ranked #13
06 53-16 cws ranked #5
05 43-23 lost baylor super ranked #13
04 39-26 lost athens regional not ranked
03 39-22lost auburn regional not ranked
02 54-17 cws ranked #3
01 41-22 lost miami super ranked #13
00 51-18 cws ranked #9
99 42-27 lost tx a&m super ranked #13
98 43-16 lost clemson regional ranked #19
97 41-23 lost lubbock regional ranked #24
96 51-17 cws ranked #4
95 54-14 cws ranked #8
94 57-18 lost clemson regional ranked #4
Total= 769-356, Avg of 45-21 (7th winningest coach since '94)
6 CWS appearances, 16 NCAA tourney appearances
4 CWS last 10 years
ACC
Year Record Finish ACC teams ranked
1977 9-1 1st 1 top 20
1978 10-2 1st 1 top 10
1979 10-1 1st No Ranked teams
1980 6-5 3rd No Ranked teams
1981 10-4 T-1st No Ranked teams
1982 10-2 1st No Ranked teams
1983 6-5 3rd 1 top 30
1984 12-2 T-1st 1 top 30
1985 9-4 T-1st 1 top 20 2 top 30
1986 9-4 3rd 1 top 20 2 top 30
1987 16-5 2nd 1 top 30
1988 18-2 1st 2 top 30
1989 13-5 2nd 1 top 10
1990 14-6 2nd 2 top 30
1991 18-3 1st 2 top 30
1992 19-5 1st 1 top 10 3 top 30
1993 11-11 5th 1 top 20 4 top 30
Year Record Finish ACC teams ranked
1994 20-4 1st 2 top 10
1995 20-4 1st 1 top 10 2 top 30
1996 17-7 2nd 1 top 10 3 top 20 4 top 30
1997 13-10 4th 2 top 10 3 top 20
1998 14-9 T-2nd 1 top 10 3 top 20 4 top 30
1999 13-10 3rd 2 top 10 3 top 30
2000 17-7 2nd 2 top 10 3 top 20 4 top 30
2001 17-7 2nd 1 top 10 2 top 20 3 top 30
2002 16-8 4th 2 top 10 4 top 20
2003 15-9 T-3rd 1 top 10 4 top 20
2004 14-10 T-4th 3 top 20 5 top 30
2005 21-9 2nd 1 top 10 3 top 20 4 top 30
2006 24-6 *1st 3 top 10 4 top 20 6 top 30
2007 18-12 *2nd 1 top 10 3 top 20
2008 11-18-1 *4th 3 top 10 4 top 20 5 top 30
2009 19-11 *2nd 3 top 10 5 top 20
2010 18-12 *T-1st 2 top 10 4 top 20
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Know-it-all [2269]
TigerPulse: 100%
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One stat that Blue_Caddy kept harping on
May 24, 2011, 11:59 PM
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to support his argument is that 2 of Leggett's Omaha trips were with Wilhelm's players.
What I never saw him mention was that 2 of Wilhem's Omaha trips were in his first two years with whoever the coach before's players.
I guess since that was in 1958 it doesn't matter like it did in 1994.
Just throwing that out there.
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Orange Elite [5132]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Bottom line they are 2 fantastic coaches!***
May 25, 2011, 12:03 AM
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Varsity [104]
TigerPulse: 92%
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The difference is, until Wilhelm we never won a NCAA tourney
May 25, 2011, 2:40 AM
[ in reply to One stat that Blue_Caddy kept harping on ] |
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game, whereas Jack benefited from inheriting a college baseball powerhouse. Wilhelm built CU baseball.
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All-TigerNet [11024]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Wrong again Caddy..we won some NCAA games
May 25, 2011, 7:22 AM
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in 1947 when who was on first and what played second. We were the NCAA Southern Champions and lost to Yale in what was the final 8 at that time. There was no Omaha...and no ACC. We won the socon under coach Randy Hinson.
In a letter to the sports editor Blue Caddy Sr demanded Hinson be fired.
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Hall of Famer [22966]
TigerPulse: 100%
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I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find bluemagoo is presenting
May 25, 2011, 7:40 PM
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an argument with incorrect facts!!!...what with him being such a super-huge Clemson fan and all
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Orange Elite [5493]
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Re: I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find bluemagoo is presenting
May 25, 2011, 9:44 AM
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No NO NO Blue t-mails me all the time. On big arguments he has never been wrong in ten years on t-net.
Yet he's only been a member since 09
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Orange Elite [5132]
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Re: The difference is, until Wilhelm we never won a NCAA tourney
May 25, 2011, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to The difference is, until Wilhelm we never won a NCAA tourney ] |
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Is this a joke? Wilhelm took over in '58. Postseason college baseball was in it's infancy then. We barely even had a chance to create a postseason resume as a program when he became coach.
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All-TigerNet [11024]
TigerPulse: 100%
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And Jack Leggett was recruiting coordinator/top asst in
May 25, 2011, 7:14 AM
[ in reply to One stat that Blue_Caddy kept harping on ] |
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Wilhelm's final 2 seasons but that doesn't count either in Blue Caddy's narrow little world.
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CU Guru [1721]
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Orange Phenom [15028]
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Re: lay off ol Blue Caddy, he is
May 25, 2011, 9:17 AM
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blue cootie
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Varsity [104]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Some of your facts are wrong. Yes the ACC is tougher now
May 25, 2011, 3:00 AM
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but CU played FSU & Miami often and always had tough out of conference schedules. So the ACC is harder because we brought into the conference teams we already played often, but out overall regular season schedules are similar.
It's true Wilhelm had a slump in the mid 80s, but he had some of our best years following that and built Clemson into a power which Jack greatly benefited from.
We went to the NCAA tourney from 75-81, then the slump, when it was a smaller NCAA field, then from 1987-2010 only missing in 2008.
We sucked in 2008, with Jack failing to win 40 games despite playing 59 games. That was only 3 years ago and we barely broke .500 going 31-27-1 and finished with a terrible ACC record and 8th in the conference.
Jack did not take us to 4 CWS in 10 years, it was 11.
He only has 1 ACC title in his last 15 years. That is totally unacceptable by any measure!
And if you go back to my original concerns about Jack, you'll see my main point was Jack had his best years his 1st 3 years, right after Wilhelm retired. When you compare Jack's first 5 years to his last 5 years you see your consistency doesn't hold form. His last 5 can't come close to his 1st 5. Thus, under Jack the program has slipped, particularly as of late. And again, 2008 sucked and was only 3 years ago.
Bottom line, I never said Jack wasn't a good coach, I merely said he's not as great as folks want to make him out to be and his lst 5 years were not nearly as good as his 1st 5 years. These things are clearly supported by the numbers.
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CU Guru [1367]
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Don't let the facts cloud your judgement***
May 25, 2011, 6:32 AM
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Orange Elite [5132]
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First of all we didn't play Miami often at all
May 25, 2011, 8:53 AM
[ in reply to Some of your facts are wrong. Yes the ACC is tougher now ] |
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Actually Wilhelm only faced them a bit late in his career going 3-5-1 against them during the regular season. FSU was scheduled during the regular season more regularly, but Wilhelm was only 12-23-1 against them when they were a non-conference opponent.
What those 2 nonconference teams have to do with Wilhelm winning the ACC when it was a shell of what it is now, I don't know, but as tough non conference opponents back then Wilhelm struggled to beat them.
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Ultimate Tiger [33434]
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Fire Wilheim!***
May 25, 2011, 7:01 AM
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All-TigerNet [11024]
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Can you imagine Blue Caddy on the net
May 25, 2011, 7:16 AM
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from 82-86? no ACCs no regionals....and one year we are 0-6 vs the gamecocks back when we played 6.....1985 if the memory serves me....
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Orange Blooded [2148]
TigerPulse: 99%
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The only person on the internet back then was
May 25, 2011, 9:16 AM
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Al Gore.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Two words basically sum up any discontent with Jack Leggett
May 25, 2011, 9:24 AM
[ in reply to Can you imagine Blue Caddy on the net ] |
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Those words are Ray Tanner and/or South Carolina. Take your choice.
Feeling that we are behind SCAR in any sport at any time does not sit well with Clemson fans.
There is no logical reason not to be ecstatic with the way Clemson baseball has fared under Jack Leggett's leadership.
But logic and fans are two words that do not go together.
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Dynasty Maker [3321]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Two words basically sum up any discontent with Jack Leggett
May 25, 2011, 9:41 AM
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yep you are correct...had we lost to ANY other team in the nation last year, while finishing tied for 3rd in the country, they would be building a statue of Jack...but because the Coots were not only the team to beat us but also to ultimately win the national title, some people want his head...Jack Leggett is the most successful coach (of the big 3 sports) we have had at Clemson in 20+ years. I don't always agree with some of his decisions, and I found him to be a bit of a pompous guy while I was in school, but no one can argue with his results.
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Orange Blooded [2135]
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Aficionado [196]
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ACC was a joke conferece for baseball
May 25, 2011, 9:39 AM
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for much of the Wilhelm Era until FSU joined in 1991.
Only twice did an ACC team outside of Clemson go to the CWS during pre-FSU joining in 1991. We won the ACC yet lost to FSU or Miami in the Regional on a few occassions. We won the ACC and were ranked in the 20s in th polls and no other teams were even in the Top 25.
The ACC put 4 teams in the CWS in one year recently.
Not knocking Wilhelm as he was a fantastic coach as well, but just pointing out that the ACC was bad back then hell ACC was bad in pretty much every sport outside basketball back then.
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Dynasty Maker [3321]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: ACC was a joke conferece for baseball
May 25, 2011, 9:41 AM
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don't confuse BlueCaddy with facts
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Replies: 21
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50
