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Legend [19648]
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Understanding the Clemson basketball job
Mar 12, 2017, 12:42 PM
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I think we all acknowledge it's a tough one. Great league, football first school, little tradition. Does that mean it's impossible? Of course not. But it will take a special type coach to bring us to consistent relevance.
Just my opinion here, but we need that Rick Barnes type. One who realizes it's going to be a street fight and come in with an us against the world attitude and not back down. Someone who has PR skills who doesn't shy away from football, but rather embraces it. We need a bulldog.
Other ACC programs have been where we are, irrelevant, and they've found their guy. UVA found Terry Holland and he made them relevant. Maryland found Lefty. Tech found Cremins. VaTech has found Peterson. We need that special guy for us and we've never really found him. I think Barnes was the closest and we couldn't keep him.
Who that guy is is up for debate. But the only question that matters as of now is whether or not Brownell is that guy? Is he? I don't think so.
So do we give up, or continue the search? Personally, I want more. I want that guy who comes here, turns it around, and wants to be here.
Not an easy task to find him, but certainly not impossible.
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Orange Blooded [2746]
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Pay Shaka Smart whatever he wants.***
Mar 12, 2017, 1:18 PM
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Legend [19648]
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Guys aren't taking a step down to come here
Mar 12, 2017, 1:19 PM
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we have to identify a Shaka type who is at a lower level, and those guys are out there
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Varsity [231]
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That ain't happening, nor should it
Mar 12, 2017, 4:09 PM
[ in reply to Pay Shaka Smart whatever he wants.*** ] |
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He's got 6 years left on his contract going from $3 to 3.5 million per year.
Plus he just had a horrible year at Texas, 11-22, their worst record in over 30 years. He was good at VCU, but he didn't turn the program around, they were good when he got there. Just give another good small conference coach or a good assistant coach a chance at a fraction of the cost.
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Legend [16132]
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: Understanding the Clemson basketball job
Mar 12, 2017, 1:27 PM
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I loved Barnes fight especially with the jerk Dean Smith. That is the type of fight we need in a coach.
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All-In [44027]
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Brownell got in Roy Williams's face this year.
Mar 12, 2017, 1:35 PM
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Why doesn't he get credit for standing up to the establishment?
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: Brownell got in Roy Williams's face this year.
Mar 12, 2017, 1:43 PM
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He did. However over his seven year career he has been very passive when standing up for his team. How many times has he really stood up to the refs or other coaches? Letting your team see that you will fight for them even telling a ref off inspires them. Judge would a good coach ever admit on the record that he was unable to recruit top players? Brownell did.
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All-In [44027]
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No Clemson coach has ever been able to recruit top players.
Mar 12, 2017, 2:01 PM
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And how would they be able to, given the crappy support they are usually given? Brownell has just had good support for a couple of years, and amazingly, his recruiting has improved.
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All-In [27371]
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Re: No Clemson coach has ever been able to recruit top players.
Mar 12, 2017, 4:16 PM
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Skip wise and Stan Rome say hello!
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All-In [44027]
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We cheated to get Skip Wise and possibly did to get
Mar 12, 2017, 4:21 PM
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Stan Rome as well.
Maybe I should have said, "No Clemson coach has ever been able to recruit top players legally."
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110%er [6937]
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Re:But by golly, they were winners.***
Mar 12, 2017, 4:37 PM
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re:But by golly, they were winners.***
Mar 13, 2017, 11:31 AM
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never won the ACC or beat UNC at home. Wise played one year. Has he got out of prison yet for dealing?
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: No Clemson coach has ever been able to recruit top players.
Mar 13, 2017, 11:29 AM
[ in reply to Re: No Clemson coach has ever been able to recruit top players. ] |
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Wow that's two out of how many years? Barnes had one good recruiting year. He thought he had three more great ones and at last minute they signed with UNC and dean Smith. That's when he realized what he was up against and left (plus he couldn't stay out of rally Cat Alley).
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All-TigerNet [14460]
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Re: No Clemson coach has ever been able to recruit top players.
Mar 13, 2017, 11:35 AM
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will be very interested to see how skara, simms and oliver fit in with all the returning guys.
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Legend [19648]
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They all bring different things
Mar 13, 2017, 11:53 AM
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Skara is a stretch 4 who probably can't bang inside. Sims is more physical. William has a chance to be a defensive presence.
Our 4-5 positions next year are a huge question mark except for Thomas
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Legend [15870]
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Re: Brownell got in Roy Williams's face this year.
Mar 12, 2017, 5:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell got in Roy Williams's face this year. ] |
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IMO Brad B is compared to Dabo to often. He does not coach like Dabo, but it doesn't mean he is not a good coach. Not many coaches are as animated and show so much outwardly enthusiasm like Dabo. Dean Smith was a fairly reserved coach but very successful.
Whoever DRad selects as the HC next year ,we as fans need to get behind him and let him know we have his back. Mens Basketball has always been our weakest sport. Even when it was a 7 team league Clemson was on the outside looking in. Always trying to catch up with the best programs. Now Clemson has expanded the conference adding Louisville, ND, Syracuse and Miami so it is even harder for Clemson because they are still fighting an uphill battle trying to catch up with the best teams in the conference.
Building a successful Mens BB Program at Clemson in the expanded ACC IMO is like climbing MT. Everest blindfolded. And it is possible that even with an awesome HC, it may take 7 to 10 years to build a program with staying power year after year.
The reason I am in no rush to fire Brad is because if he can't get over the hump our next hire has to be a home run! And that may take time and patience.
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Legend [19648]
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Dean probably had more career technicals than anyone in
Mar 12, 2017, 5:22 PM
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league history. He also was notorious for jawing with opposing players. He was anything but reserved
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Legend [19648]
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Year 7 vs year 1
Mar 12, 2017, 1:49 PM
[ in reply to Brownell got in Roy Williams's face this year. ] |
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Judge, even you have to admit that Brad doesn't exactly exude passion. Not saying he's not passionate, but his personality is very reserved, at least in public and on the sidelines.
Barnes showed himself a fighter from day 1 when with a horrible roster he established the slab 5 and an attitude of toughness. No other Clemson coach has brought that type mentality
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All-In [44027]
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We have been spoiled with Dabo.
Mar 12, 2017, 2:07 PM
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He is one in a million. Naturally we want to replicate that in basketball. While Brad is not a rah rah in your face guy, I do think he is passionate enough. Watch him closely in a game - he is very involved in how he coaches his players and interacts with the refs. I do not think it is fair when people call him boring or uncaring (not saying you were - but others here certainly do).
Barnes was our best coach ever. He did a lot for our program, but we were not able to keep him. I believe Brownell loves Clemson in a way that Barnes did not, and if our patience with Brownell pays off, I am confident we will be able to keep him. It would be our first time ever keeping a successful coach.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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you have a weird definition of
Mar 12, 2017, 2:09 PM
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successful
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All-In [44027]
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You only look at wins and losses without any
Mar 12, 2017, 4:23 PM
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consideration for the context of those wins and losses?
I have said many times that Brownell needs to win more games and make more postseason tournaments. But it must be viewed in context, and for most of his tenure at Clemson he has been fighting with one hand tied behind his back.
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: We have been spoiled with Dabo.
Mar 12, 2017, 2:28 PM
[ in reply to We have been spoiled with Dabo. ] |
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Judge Brownell is a nice guy but not a good coach. His personality is not dynamic and that is reflected in recruiting and on the court.
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All-In [44027]
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Not a good coach? He is tied for the most ACC wins
Mar 12, 2017, 4:27 PM
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in Clemson history and is a close second in ACC win percentage in Clemson history. Does he need to be better? Absolutely! But posts like yours who portray him as a bad coach are just ridiculous.
People say that they want Clemson to be a middle of the pack ACC team. Under Brownell, our average ACC finish is 8th. Given that the ACC has 15 teams, I would say that is very middle of the pack.
His personality might not be what you want in a coach, but he has brought in a lot more talent the last few seasons. Our recruiting class for 2017 is his best one yet, and ranked in the top 35-40 according to most of the rankings I have seen.
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Legend [19648]
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Tommy West loved Clemson. So did
Mar 12, 2017, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to We have been spoiled with Dabo. ] |
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Larry Shyatt. But it can't be enough to want to be here. We need someone who not only wants to be here, but has performed to a level where he is wanted and needed here.
As I've stated, we've never found that guy. I however am convinced Brad isn't that guy. To truly elevate the program and have the desire to sustain it will take a very special coach. But I for one refuse to believe he isn't out there.
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All-In [44027]
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Nobody said loving Clemson was enough.
Mar 12, 2017, 4:31 PM
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It is not a replacement for wins. But hiring a coach who will be really successful at Clemson (assuming we would do that, which is a big assumption) won't mean a lot if he doesn't also love Clemson.
We know that we have a guy who loves Clemson, does things the right way, graduates his players, doesn't cheat, and represents our school well - and puts our players in a position to win games almost every night. It isn't unreasonable to give him an additional year or two to see if he can continue to upgrade the talent level so that we turn the corner.
Taking a chance on Brad for another year or two is less risky than starting over with another mid-major coach who has zero experience running a major program.
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Orange Blooded [4142]
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Re: Understanding the Clemson basketball job
Mar 12, 2017, 1:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: Understanding the Clemson basketball job ] |
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Yeah , I liked him , too . But I felt like he sort of backed down when he turned tail and ran .
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Legend [19648]
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He left for a better job
Mar 12, 2017, 1:50 PM
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part of finding that right guy is finding the guy who thinks Clemson is that job
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Orange Blooded [4896]
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Barnes did not leave for a better job
Mar 12, 2017, 4:05 PM
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At the time Clemson was a better job and in a better conference. There are rumors why he left and his wife claimed it was the public schools (BS). But it was not because UT was a better job.
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Legend [19648]
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Texas was, is and always will be a better
Mar 12, 2017, 4:21 PM
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job
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All-In [44027]
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You talk about Clemson having higher standards in basketball
Mar 12, 2017, 4:32 PM
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yet you state that Texas will always be a better job. Pretty short-sighted viewpoint.
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Legend [19648]
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Nope, Texas has more money, more tradition
Mar 12, 2017, 4:35 PM
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a much better recruiting area and is in a great metro area. Just being honest
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All-In [44027]
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The Clemson football job became much better over the past 5
Mar 12, 2017, 4:39 PM
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years once we put more money into the program and had more success on the field. The same can happen for basketball. Texas is obviously a much better job, but that's not to say that in 15, 20, or 50 years it couldn't be better.
I am fine with you saying that it was and is currently a better job, but to say that it will ALWAYS be better is silly. You don't know the future.
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CU Medallion [58410]
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By traditional standards, Texas is definitely a better job,
Mar 12, 2017, 5:45 PM
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but we can't think in traditional terms or we will forever be trapped in mediocrity. In football, Alabama is a better job than Clemson by those measures, but I honestly don't think Dabo sees it that way. He understands and appreciates the things that are unique and special about Clemson itself, aside from the football tradition, and he understands (at least I believe) that Clemson is a better job for him.
We need to sell that same aspect of Clemson to a basketball coach that can embrace all of that, and commit to giving him what he needs to build a better basketball program.
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All-TigerNet [10902]
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I really like Barnes, but I think he thought he could become
Mar 12, 2017, 4:58 PM
[ in reply to Barnes did not leave for a better job ] |
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the top dog in the Big 12, but knew that wouldn't likely happen in the ACC.
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Legend [16132]
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Orange Blooded [2533]
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Good post in substance
Mar 12, 2017, 3:54 PM
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except for the Barnes reference, he who cut and ran about as quick as he arrived. And his hands are too soft, like a piano player's, because I shook it once.
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Legend [19648]
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Bit he instilled a toughness here that
Mar 12, 2017, 3:57 PM
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no one else ever has. Clemson is never going to out talent many in the ACC, but we can be tougher than most. Barnes brought that in spades
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Legend [15870]
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Re: Understanding the Clemson basketball job
Mar 12, 2017, 4:40 PM
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I wanted Clemson to go after Greg Marshall before the Brad B hire. I don't know if we even my an attempt to get him. He took an irrelevant Winthrop BB program and made it really relevant and now he has proven himself at Wichita. He is still the guy IMO that can turn Clemson around. I believe he would be the Dabo of Clemson Basketball.
Right now though I am concerned about how financially Clemson could let Brad go and get Greg Marshall to Tiger Town. Fans would have to really step up and support the basketball program.
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Legend [19648]
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But now you have another up and comer at Winthrop in Kelsey
Mar 12, 2017, 4:44 PM
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Former assistant under Prosser at Wake and Xavier. Has rebuilt that program. Knows what it takes to recruit at the highest levels and is supposed to be pretty dynamic. I think the ship has sailed on Marshall, but there are quality guys who would love the chance to coach at Clemson
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: But now you have another up and comer at Winthrop in Kelsey
Mar 13, 2017, 10:09 AM
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Kelsey is my candidate for an opening At Clemson.
Go Tigers!
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All-In [44027]
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I'm sure it would take at least $4-$5 million a year
Mar 12, 2017, 4:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: Understanding the Clemson basketball job ] |
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to get Marshall to come to Clemson. Considering the fact that we pay Brad about $1.6 million and fans complain about "paying him a high salary," I find it hard to believe that Clemson fans would be okay with that. Plus, if you pay anywhere close to what the football coach makes, fans will feel that it threatens our status as a football school too much.
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All-TigerNet [10902]
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Marshall isn't leaving Wichita, unless it's somewhere like
Mar 12, 2017, 5:03 PM
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UNC or Duke. He is the big dog at Wichita, doesn't even have to compete with football.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Rick Barnes ran away from the fight with Dean Smith, Coach K
Mar 12, 2017, 7:34 PM
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Swofford, and the ACC.
Why would you want another Coach like that?
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Legend [19648]
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Hence the "like" Barnes comparison
Mar 13, 2017, 9:56 AM
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Barnes brought attitude and toughness like no other coach we've had. Find that guy again and then do whatever it takes to keep him.
The point is we've never found that guy. Others have, and we can to. To not strive for that is to continue the futility
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: Rick Barnes ran away from the fight with Dean Smith, Coach K
Mar 13, 2017, 11:37 AM
[ in reply to Rick Barnes ran away from the fight with Dean Smith, Coach K ] |
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Right. He came to realize that he couldn't recruit against Duke and UNC. He had one great recruiting class, but they didn't win the ACC regular season or the tournament. Closest we ever came was Tree Rollins senior season. If we should win the NIT it will be the major event in Clemson history. Let that sink in.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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OP's formula worked well, we should go back to it.
Mar 12, 2017, 7:45 PM
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Recruit the best athletes you can get, play a up tempo frantic style, and try to learn some basketball skill along the way.
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Legend [16132]
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Rick was a HC in a Power Conference...It should would
Mar 13, 2017, 3:20 AM
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bve nice to hire another one of those...It would be our second
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Head Coach [758]
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Re: Rick was a HC in a Power Conference...It should would
Mar 13, 2017, 7:02 AM
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Just hire a winner. Who cares where they come from.
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All-In [44027]
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You make it sound so simple.
Mar 13, 2017, 10:05 AM
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If it were that easy to identify a winner - especially one who can and will excel at Clemson - we wouldn't have an all-time winning percentage of 50%.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: You make it sound so simple.
Mar 13, 2017, 11:41 AM
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For us old guys, I remember after his first two years, Duke fans were calling for Coach K's head...how did that work out?
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1st Rounder [648]
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Re: You make it sound so simple.
Mar 13, 2017, 11:42 AM
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Two is not seven years.
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Legend [16132]
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we're not Duke either Einstein***
Mar 13, 2017, 1:04 PM
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Legend [16132]
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oh, is that all...I remember at least 4 P5 HCs turning us
Mar 13, 2017, 1:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Rick was a HC in a Power Conference...It should would ] |
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down LAST time around, two declining the invitation to interview...It's a little more complicated than "just hiring a winner", but it's cute that you think that's all it would take
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