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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Not really a politics or religion question, but I thought
Aug 19, 2016, 1:48 PM
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I'd ask it here because I was interested in some more serious answers.
I've mentioned these folks before, but thought I would ask again due to some new updates.
A married couple we know has cancer in their family history. It has killed people on both sides of the their families, and even though they know this, they decided to have a child. (This was the question I asked before--should they have a kid?). The father of the kid also has heart disease in his family history as well.
That was about 1.5 years ago. Recently, the wife/mother has been told that she has about a 90% chance of developing cancer (apparently soon), and her doctors are suggesting she get a double mastectomy and have her ovaries removed as well as a hysterectomy immediately. She is 31 years old.
This couple has decided that they want to have one more child before her surgeries.
At this point, she knows a life threatening cancer of some sort is almost a definite for her. And being that it is a genetic issue, she will be handing this down to someone who isn't even born yet.
My question is...is this fair? Is this morally right? To me, this seems pretty selfish, and will possibly cause a child to grow up without a mother, and in the long run, probably have cancer as well.
What do you think?
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Lot o points [156325]
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I'm ok with it.
Aug 19, 2016, 1:53 PM
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I'm not really big on living life based on hypothetical worst case scenarios that haven't happened yet.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I get that and agree.
Aug 19, 2016, 1:56 PM
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But when doctors are telling you to start removing internal organs so you don't die, I'm thinking its a when, not an if.
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Legend [15757]
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It's a "when" for us all.***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:01 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Typically not when you're a child, or in your 30's***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:05 PM
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Legend [15757]
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You have to have hope. Maybe these procedures
Aug 19, 2016, 2:00 PM
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Will prolong her life significantly.
My dad was told he had to have open heart surgery, and that he could just get angioplasty done but he'd just be back in five years. He went to one of the best heart docs in the northeast for a second opinion and he recommended the angioplasty. He agreed with the first doctor, but said "when you're back in five years, we will have developed all sorts of better tools and procedures to care for the heart." That's the way medicine is right now. So, you can't guarantee that their child will develop this disease...or that it will not be more manageable in the future.
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110%er [7657]
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Re: Not really a politics or religion question, but I thought
Aug 19, 2016, 2:07 PM
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Having children is entirely selfish already. People have children to satisfy their need to have a family and to raise their children somewhat in their likeness so that they can continue on. A woman's urge to have a child is not easily quelled, so basing the decision on a hypothetical scenario doesn't really add weight.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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What's hypothetical?***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:08 PM
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110%er [7657]
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Re: What's hypothetical?***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:14 PM
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No one can say with certainty that the child will get cancer. It seems fairly certain that the mother will, but no one can guarantee that either.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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These seem like slim odds to me
Aug 19, 2016, 2:16 PM
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And they are basically playing those odds with someone else's life.
You wouldn't do that to your kid that was already born, would you?
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Lot o points [156325]
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My dad is epileptic....it typically skips a generation.
Aug 19, 2016, 2:19 PM
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No indications yet, but if my son has it, we'll probably know in the next 5-7 years.
Did I want to have a son who would have to manage epilpsy of unknowing severity throughout their life? Hellz no. Has it been worth it taking the risk? Absolutely.
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110%er [7657]
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Re: These seem like slim odds to me
Aug 19, 2016, 2:24 PM
[ in reply to These seem like slim odds to me ] |
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I see what you're saying, however, many women have a very strong urge to reproduce - as though it's their purpose. They don't think of the child as just another life, so to speak. It's a connection, a bond, a precious gift. All I'm saying is that, in making this decision, weighing it on chances just doesn't sway the mind.
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Lot o points [156325]
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Selfish? Huh?
Aug 19, 2016, 2:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Not really a politics or religion question, but I thought ] |
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The desire to propagate one's species probably only trails survival as one of the most deeply ingrained and instinctual behaviors extant. That's no more selfish than drinking water or eating food.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I'd have to disagree with that one***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:17 PM
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Lot o points [156325]
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Well, obviously..... however, let it be said that
Aug 19, 2016, 2:20 PM
[ in reply to Selfish? Huh? ] |
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neither do I consider it "selfish" to choose to not have them.
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CU Medallion [56304]
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Drinking water and eating food aren't selfless acts.
Aug 19, 2016, 2:22 PM
[ in reply to Selfish? Huh? ] |
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I'm not a parent and of course parents make sacrifices beyond count for their children. At the same time, the decision to have children isn't made out of the goodness of one's heart. Like, "Let's do the world a favor and make another three of me."
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Lot o points [156325]
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Sure they are....unless you're suicidal and on a hunger
Aug 19, 2016, 2:26 PM
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strike, you don't choose to eat or drink do you? You choose what and when you eat or drink, but it's not like you say "I have to remember to eat today" when you wake up. It just happens.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Lot o points [156325]
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agree completely***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:27 PM
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Lot o points [156325]
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oh and dude, you're right about at least one thing.
Aug 19, 2016, 2:29 PM
[ in reply to Drinking water and eating food aren't selfless acts. ] |
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Remove kids from the equation, and I'd have a Ferrari and a vacation home by now.
If you guys are correct that it's selfish to have em, raising them properly is about one of the most selfless things I've ever engaged in.
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All-In [49212]
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This post should be hall of fame***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:52 PM
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CU Medallion [56304]
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I remember once saying this exact thing to
Aug 19, 2016, 3:13 PM
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Cobb, and him ridiculing me over it.
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Lot o points [156325]
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I'm not going to ridicule you, but I think you're generally
Aug 19, 2016, 3:20 PM
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wrong, at least in my case.
Before we had kids, we had a lot of long talks about it.....we knew it would impact our incomes, our lifestyles, our freedom/free time, our mobility, and probably our relationship---we went into it with eyes wide open, and yet we were willing to make the sacrifices. Just seems to defy the very definition of selfishness to me. I guarantee you I wouldn't have given all that up just to keep up with the Jones's or because it seemed the cool thing to do.
I'm not saying SOME people don't have them for selfish reasons, they do. I'm also not saying that people who engage in sex with no precautions with no thoughts to the topic aren't being selfish.
I'm just saying that at it's core, the desire to have kids is instinctual more than selfish, and that thoughtfully understanding what's required to carry though with it and doing so anyway isn't selfish....it's doing and committing everything you have to someone you haven't even met yet.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I think Murc described it pretty well.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:29 PM
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HAVING kids is the selfish part.
You and your wife had kids for you--noone was begging you to do that.
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Lot o points [156325]
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We'll agree to disagree
Aug 19, 2016, 3:32 PM
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I'm not really invested enough to debate the point. Seems like a perspective thing.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Agreed; this was never the point of the question to begin
Aug 19, 2016, 3:33 PM
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with.
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Heisman Winner [138438]
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Well, now, hold on there, perfesser.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to I think Murc described it pretty well. ] |
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I'll make a medium-size wager that at least one of the grandmothers had asked the question more than once.
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110%er [7657]
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Re: Selfish? Huh?
Aug 19, 2016, 2:27 PM
[ in reply to Selfish? Huh? ] |
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By selfish I mean - it's something we do for ourselves - our lives. I don't know anyone who decided to have kids to propagate the species.
I agree with what you're saying, though. We're just talking on two completely different levels.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I've thought about this a bit
Aug 19, 2016, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to Selfish? Huh? ] |
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I'd like to think that as a species we are a bit more evolved than a group of feral dogs, which is what your post describes.
Perhaps I'm wrong about that.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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I'm really not sure that we are.
Aug 19, 2016, 2:54 PM
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What I find interesting is how people who have no business having kids seem to be the most fertile. Middle class Herman and his wife Sue, who make a nice living, are perfectly healthy, and volunteer their excess time and money to charity can spend 6 years trying to have a kid and it not happen.
Meanwhile, Spyder, who dropped out of high school, and spends the majority of his time traveling to music festivals and Bernie Sanders rallies bangs KreeStale once at an EDM concert, and they've got a kid. Not only do they have that kid, they have 3 more within a 1.5 year time span.
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Lot o points [156325]
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nope, the instinct is still there. Difference is we can
Aug 19, 2016, 2:55 PM
[ in reply to I've thought about this a bit ] |
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choose not to act on it, unlike feral dogs, but the existence of the instinct is why women generally have an inexplicable desire to have kids, not some selfish "I gotta have me one of them" desire*.
*(Not always)
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I've never had that instinct.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:12 PM
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Not once, ever. I have never thought, even once, "it would be great to have a kid".
So I'm not sure its as innate as you say.
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Lot o points [156325]
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Nope, the typical male instinct is to have sex .
Aug 19, 2016, 3:22 PM
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That typical instinct sort of goes hand in hand with the typical female instinct.
So unless you're telling me you've been totally and completely chaste in all your years, then yeah, you've reacted to a related instinct.
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110%er [7657]
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Re: nope, the instinct is still there. Difference is we can
Aug 19, 2016, 3:14 PM
[ in reply to nope, the instinct is still there. Difference is we can ] |
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You're talking about the physical desire to bear children. I'm talking about the emotional/psychological desire. We decided to have children for the betterment of our lives. We didn't consider how it would impact those around us when we made the decision.
Maybe selfish is the wrong word. I'm saying, it's something we do for to improve our own situations, not because we're trying to promote the species. I had to have me one of them. (obviously not as simple as that)
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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"We didn't consider how it would impact those around us when
Aug 19, 2016, 3:18 PM
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we made the decision."
And in this instance, I'm not talking about how them having kids would affect anyone but the child. So I guess you're saying that you would never take that into consideration, either?
That pretty much describes selfishness, no?
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110%er [7657]
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Re: "We didn't consider how it would impact those around us when
Aug 19, 2016, 3:46 PM
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I'm not sure why you would deduce that I would never take that into consideration. Of course I would. What I didn't take into consideration was the impact on the world around me - how other people would feel about me bearing children.
It's apparent that you find her decision selfish. But I'm curious, do you have children?
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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No.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:47 PM
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I'm curious as to why it matters.
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110%er [7657]
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Re: No.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:53 PM
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I realize that not everyone gets to make the decision to have children. But for those of us who did, I promise you, the considerations are enormous even in the best of situations. I imagine, but I could be wrong, that the woman you describe has thought through her situation and come to the conclusion that she wants to have a child. I imagine her decision would be different if she knew with 100% certainty that her child's life would be cut short at a young age.
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Oculus Spirit [94289]
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May I add...
Aug 19, 2016, 3:41 PM
[ in reply to Selfish? Huh? ] |
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the natural affections of having and raising children is diminishing?
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Rock Defender [54]
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I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't judge the actions
Aug 19, 2016, 2:08 PM
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of people in impossible circumstances. What's right for them might not be right for all.
Also, does everyone in their family get cancer? Like every parent, aunt, uncle, grandparent, child?
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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my understanding is that those who weren't taken out by
Aug 19, 2016, 2:09 PM
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cancer were taken out by heart disease.
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Rock Defender [54]
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At what ages?***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:11 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Her mother died last year in her 50's.
Aug 19, 2016, 2:14 PM
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Her father died a long time ago; not sure how old he was.
I know his father died; I'm not sure about his mother.
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Rock Defender [54]
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I mean genetics is typically a 50/50 proposition.
Aug 19, 2016, 2:16 PM
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With advances in medicine, and KNOWING the family history, it doesn't sound like a death sentence for the child.
Precancerous care is being done on the mother in order to alleviate some risk. Nothing sounds morally wrong about them choosing to have another child.
I wish them the best.
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All-In [49212]
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CU Medallion [56304]
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Lot o points [156325]
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too bad you're living in a place that kills.***
Aug 19, 2016, 2:30 PM
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All-In [26680]
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Re: Not really a politics or religion question, but I thought
Aug 19, 2016, 3:00 PM
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see Joey Feek's story. She died of cervical cancer leaving behind an infant child.
I would venture to say that the children of this person you describe would be happy to have been born and had a life vs. not being born. I know I would, but maybe that's just me. Personally, I would go about my life and let God's plan for me play out. If I did not have children, then that is God's plan. If I do have children, that is also God's plan. I would do a lot of praying about it and seek God's will. God does not always answer our prayers with the ans. we want to hear. But he does ans. our prayers in the way he knows is best for us. We can't see the future, but God can.
If the couple are Christians, and you want to be a friend, ask them to pray about it and seek Gods help. The old testament is full of stories to guide us.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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a couple things...
Aug 19, 2016, 3:10 PM
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If you are never born, you would never know any different.
And if you are born, thanking your parents for being born (have you ever actually done this?) seems like an odd thing to do...especially if you get cancer and are dying of from it during some or most of it.
I am not a Christian, and I'm not going to tell anyone to pray on anything. Nor will I speak to them about it. At all.
While I might think its the cruelest, most selfish thing to do to have another child, I'm not about to tell that to a woman who is going to have a fair amount of her internal organs removed.
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Lot o points [156325]
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I think you just answered your own question.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:12 PM
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If you didn't have kids, it's a moot point.
If you do have kids, there is a life being led that wouldn't have been.
I've seen some people with some early onset, horrible, cruel illnesses, who wouldn't trade the lives they'd led for anything.
Conversely, I've never seen anyone with terminal cancer say "I wish I were never born". Instead you see them fighting for life, because it's generally worth the fight.
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All-In [26680]
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Re: I think you just answered your own question.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:30 PM
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thank you.
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CU Medallion [56304]
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Like the instinct to reproduce, there's an instinct for
Aug 19, 2016, 3:36 PM
[ in reply to I think you just answered your own question. ] |
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survival. People and animals instinctively prefer life to death. Generally speaking anyway.
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Lot o points [156325]
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Right, which bring us full circle to the question.......
Aug 19, 2016, 3:40 PM
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if you're born, aren't you generally glad you're born, regardless of your circumstances?
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Oculus Spirit [94289]
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I think it's none of my business.
Aug 19, 2016, 3:34 PM
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I'm not much for deciding life or death situations nor am I excited about dallying in reproductive preferences. I do not think gay men should get pregnant though. I strongly believe that we should have a law which prevents gay men from producing ######## babies.
I know the prejudice is overwhelming but I just can't help my racist self.
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CU Guru [1066]
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They may be friends...
Aug 19, 2016, 4:33 PM
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....but in any case, it's none of your or our business.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Legend [17971]
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It is only natural for people to want children
Aug 19, 2016, 8:58 PM
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Many do and can't, many don't and do, although they shouldn't. The impact on the child is simply the risk of life. And since they are in that game already, let them enjoy it through their children. No matter how long they may or may not have.
As for the doctor, it is good that one can diagnose with some certainty many of these scenarios, but when it comes to betting my life on something, that decision is solely mine...and whomever I invite into the decision. As for having a child in this situation, why not? Have the child and then have the surgery if so desired. But either way, how ever they chose to go I support them.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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In that game?
Aug 20, 2016, 1:13 AM
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wow.
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Legend [17971]
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Life...you don't consider life a game?
Aug 20, 2016, 1:26 PM
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Perhaps you think it is a job, or a responsibility not to yourself but to someone else - not even family. No matter, you play it the way you see it...oh wait, play is the wrong word, isn't it?
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I guess not.
Aug 20, 2016, 5:00 PM
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I wouldn't consider playing a "game" with someone else's life, either.
I guess you do.
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Legend [17971]
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You guess wrong
Aug 20, 2016, 5:55 PM
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What someone wishes to do with their life is not for me or you to decide. I said I would support their decision either way. It's funny to me that they didn't ask for an opinion on the matter though, but you did. And you say you don't like to play with peoples lives. Spot on!
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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So you never have an opinion on what other people do?
Aug 21, 2016, 1:15 PM
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Interesting.
I bet I could pull up a few of your prior posts that would say differently. You think it's "funny" they never asked for an opinion? How is that "funny"? Does anyone ever ask for your opinion on something..on anything, on which you have one anyway?
As for me, no, I don't see life as a "game" as you have stated you do. Your sense of humor is vastly different than mine.
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Legend [17971]
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Joined: 12/24/96
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Sure, I have opinions. Go ahead and search my post history
Aug 21, 2016, 2:01 PM
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You will not find one post where I made a game out of a friends life on T-net, or even a stranger. You will find my opinion in everything I post - same as you. But, you will not find one where I introduce a friend or a stranger and ask for Tnet opinion of them.
And, you are right, our sense of humor is different - and that's not all.
BTW, it is funny because you say you never play with peoples lives, and yet, here you are - defending the fact that you have taken their (your friends) personal life, and their decision to do with what they like, and made it a "free-for-all" on social media on why it is right or not for them to do what they want to do. That is funny - You, that is.
If you ain't got that by now, you never will. Don't expect an invitation to any of my events. Oh, I know, you wouldn't come anyway...good.
That is all. Out.
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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I haveno desire to search your post history
Aug 21, 2016, 2:24 PM
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It was just a good guess.
>>You will not find one post where I made a game out of a friends life on T-net, or even a stranger. You will find my opinion in everything I post - same as you. But, you will not find one where I introduce a friend or a stranger and ask for Tnet opinion of them.<<
You don;t know these people. I barely know them. Would you know them if you met them? And does that even matter? Would your opinion change if you did know them? Interesting.
>>And, you are right, our sense of humor is different - and that's not all.
BTW, it is funny because you say you never play with peoples lives, and yet, here you are - defending the fact that you have taken their (your friends) personal life, and their decision to do with what they like, and made it a "free-for-all" on social media on why it is right or not for them to do what they want to do. That is funny - You, that is.<<
I'm not even going to try and understand what the "free for all" is that you are speaking of, But I'm getting from the tone of this that your pretty p!ssed off, and you're not really sure why.
>>If you ain't got that by now, you never will. Don't expect an invitation to any of my events. Oh, I know, you wouldn't come anyway...good.<<
Well NOW, now I'm hurt. I was waiting for an invitation form someone I don't know, in somewhere I don't live, to go do something that I'm not sure of.
THAT really cuts a person to be the bone. I'm sure your events are the best, I'm really bothered to not even be invited to them.
>>That is all. Out.<<<
Okay, bye.
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Legend [17971]
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Joined: 12/24/96
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You have no desire to prove yourself wrong?
Aug 21, 2016, 6:41 PM
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I'm Back!
You think I'm "pissed"??? Well, wrong again. You should stop asking your mother for the answer to the questions.
And I don't know them (Your Friends), you are right. But even if I did my first answer would stand - I stand by them whatever they decide. I actually wrote it that way too so it wouldn't be hard to understand.
Now, you don't know what a "Free-for-all"" is? Well, youngster, as you grow older you should figure that one out easy enough.
BTW, you convey that you have a "death" issue. Have you ever watched "What about Bob"? Be like the son in that movie - dive into life and don't be afraid any longer. Going through life mad, meddling, and cowardly is no way to live.
Well, if it really bothers you that you are not invited to any of my events, I will reconsider. There now, that should make you feel much better. 
Have a good night.
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: You have no desire to prove yourself wrong?
Aug 21, 2016, 7:09 PM
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Why are the Christians on Tnet so condescending?
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Legend [17971]
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Joined: 12/24/96
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Thank you
Aug 21, 2016, 7:32 PM
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I think you could say I was somewhat condescending. Why do non-Christians think they are the only ones who have the right to be?
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: Thank you
Aug 21, 2016, 7:47 PM
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You have a deity telling you to be loving to those even if they aren't in return. You aren't being a great representative of Christ with these responses to Ineligible user.
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CU Guru [1066]
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Joined: 7/18/16
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We all fall short of the Glory...***
Aug 21, 2016, 7:51 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 9/13/04
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Lutz***
Aug 21, 2016, 8:06 PM
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Orange Blooded [4747]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Joined: 1/24/07
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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Joined: 9/13/04
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You seem to have admitted to it
Aug 21, 2016, 8:10 PM
[ in reply to You have no desire to prove yourself wrong? ] |
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Whats the point?
I'm Back!
>>You think I'm "pissed"??? Well, wrong again. You should stop asking your mother for the answer to the questions.<<
My mother passed away years ago. I'm not sure of your point.
>>And I don't know them (Your Friends), you are right. But even if I did my first answer would stand - I stand by them whatever they decide. I actually wrote it that way too so it wouldn't be hard to understand.
Now, you don't know what a "Free-for-all"" is? Well, youngster, as you grow older you should figure that one out easy enough. <<
Hold old must one be? I'm close to 50..so perhaps you can educate me oh learned one.
>>BTW, you convey that you have a "death" issue. Have you ever watched "What about Bob"? Be like the son in that movie - dive into life and don't be afraid any longer. Going through life mad, meddling, and cowardly is no way to live.<<
I have no idea what you are talking about. Gibberish, once again. This seems to be a common thread for you.
>>Well, if it really bothers you that you are not invited to any of my events, I will reconsider. There now, that should make you feel much better. <<
I've lamented all afternoon that I many miss one of these world renowned events. Everyone I spoke said I should be sad.
>>Have a good night.<<
I SAID GOOD DAY
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Legend [17971]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8966
Joined: 12/24/96
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Sorry you lost your mother, I did too. Cancer doesn't care
Aug 21, 2016, 8:20 PM
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who you are.
Close to 50? Well, that does surprise me. I'll be 54 on Tuesday. Ain't it great to have seen so much!
and, really? You don't understand? I think you are just trying to drag the conversation on....because you do care about being my friend. Thanks! Sorry I didn't catch that earlier.
Well, have a good night too.
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All-In [25000]
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Joined: 7/31/10
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"Live and let live"... (and mind your own business).***
Aug 21, 2016, 10:00 AM
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
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It sounds to me that I have hit the taboo area of R&P.
Aug 21, 2016, 1:21 PM
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But don't ever question if someone should have kids.
Got it.
People here seem to have unasked for opinions on religion, sexuality, race, and every facet of politics. All of these subjects are open to analysis from viewpoints based on every personal perspective.
And the given opinions of these subjects matter to their outcome about as much as mine to this couple.
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All-In [25000]
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I agree. +1... ;~)***
Aug 21, 2016, 4:17 PM
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All-In [39020]
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Posts: 51623
Joined: 11/20/04
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My grandmother is from a similar family...
Aug 21, 2016, 2:17 PM
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she died of cancer this year at the age of 76. Thankfully I don't actually have to ask her if, despite her painful and tragic end, her life had been worth living. Her five grandchildren and five great-grandchildren were purpose enough.
Besides, what's the alternative? Soft eugenics? GTFO
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Oculus Spirit [81431]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 9/13/04
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So, I'll take it from your "GTFO"
Aug 21, 2016, 2:26 PM
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That you think having kids would be a great idea.
Noted.
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