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All-In [32656]
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A previous post in a response got me thinking - Is Clemson Basketball
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:56 PM
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the worst program in the history of the ACC - since its founding in 1953 ?
We have made TWO ACC Tournament final appearances - lost both - therefore no ACC title
We have 1 regular season in which we finished in first place of the regular season - which doesn't really mean anything, according to the ACC.
We have 1 Elite 8 appearance.
We have arguably one of the most used plays in the history of the "Madness" that is March - hyping the upcoming tournament - and we are the losers - not the winners - thanks uconn.
The banners hanging in LJ are a HUGE stretch to be hanging up there - they are CLOSE to being 5th place rings like the chicken boys do.
If the tarholes used the same parameters to put up a banner that we do, the entire outer roof of the dean dome could be made of banners.
If we aren't the worst - who has been historically worse since 1953 ?
It is beyond embarrassing - it is sickening and sad - as it relates to sports and our Alma Mater.
And it is the same thing we laugh maniacally about regarding our "rivals" in their football performance.
How is this even possible ?
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110%er [9070]
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Yes, we are historically the worst basketball program in the ACC.........
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:04 PM
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based on the things you mentioned. No matter what's been tried there's been no lasting success or achievements.
Who knows what is will take to really change this because we've been talking about this same topic for decades now.
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All-In [32656]
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I'm not sure about "decades" - for at least the last 10 to 15 years - but
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:17 PM
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after seeing what has happened in football - get the right leader, get some results, start putting into what is giving results until we are now among the "blue bloods" - whatever that means - in less than 20 years.
The Clemson support is there - we just need something good going on and sustained and driven by a leader with vision, in my opinion.
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Standout [306]
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Re: I'm not sure about "decades" - for at least the last 10 to 15 years - but
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:32 PM
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I think the issue is twofold in finding that leader. One finding someone who can build a level to that type of success in the one and done era is exceedingly rare, recruiting day one players from high school is critical and they have to stay healthy. Two, right now the coaching job at Clemson is a stepping stone to a better job, at best. When Dabo took over you could argue he turned the football program from a stepping stone into one of just a few “destination” jobs. I’m not sure who we could get that could change both without bolting for a better job midway through the task.
I think another issue is (from a potential bball coach) clemson is a football school first and it’s always going to be that way. And h*ll I’d say we’re more of a baseball school than we are a basketball school for that matter.
I feel like this all puts us in this sort of basketball purgatory that’s going to take a really special coach to get us out of
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Legend [16160]
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Re: A previous post in a response got me thinking - Is Clemson Basketball
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:30 PM
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We are the only founding member that has not won the tournament. Expansion teams, Miami, Va Tech, FSU and Notre Dame have won it once. Ga Tech has 4. Clemson's first NCAA appearance was 1980?
We had 3 years of probation after Tates Locke went after Moses Malone offering money. I think Tree Rollins and Skip Wise were part of that deal as well.
Back in the Big-4 days, nobody could get a fair shake at it. It took guys like Lefty, Bobby Cremmins, Frank McGuire and Terry Holland to finally challenge that "system". I thought Clemson finally had that guy in Rick Barnes. But it wasn't meant to be.
It has been difficult through the years when a lot of your fan base would just as soon raze Littlejohn in favor of a parking garage for Death Valley. At least that has changed for the most part.
I would say through the years what little Clemson could bring to the recruiting table was offering guys a chance to play in the ACC. That too has changed.
So, in answer to the question, I would say yes. For multiple reasons within our control and beyond it.
I would like us to succeed every time someone takes the court to represent Clemson University. Be it football, basketball, softball or lacross.
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110%er [8540]
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Re: A previous post in a response got me thinking - Is Clemson Basketball
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:31 PM
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Our history explains how hard it is to win at Clemson, why it is hard to recruit top players and how hard it would be change coaches and get someone who moves the needle. I still say we need a CJ Spiller but PJ Hall is pretty close if he just had a little more help.
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All-In [32656]
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I'm trying to answer this respectfully - my thought is - our history certainly
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:39 PM
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doesn't HELP us.
BUT - with the right leader, it doesn't hurt us. In fact - the "come to Clemson and be the CJ cornerstone piece that leads to all the amazing others to follow" is a HUGE selling point - if it is played properly, by someone with charisma & energy & passion.
And using our history as any kinda measuring stick for current performance, is a huge mistake.
We need to say - THIS YEAR is the FIRST YEAR of Clemson Basketball as it will be known from this point forward.
In my opinion, it ISN'T hard to win at Clemson. Look at Soccer and lots of other sports not named football - but look at football, too - the same "we aren't in a big city, we don't appeal to the demographic" (whatever that means) scenarios exist - and those sports do great !
And I have seen first-hand tremendous basketball support when the product is GOOD !
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110%er [8034]
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Re: I'm trying to answer this respectfully - my thought is - our history certainly
Jan 23, 2024, 2:58 PM
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It's an age-old question. Why is a school good in one sport but not another? Look at coot football and the women's coot basketball program. Two programs at the same school but with much different trajectories. Perhaps CBB has taken us as far as possible, but the next hire is tricky. Like coot football, the most promising young coaches won't touch us as there is too much risk of failure thus damaging their career. In the current environment, it might more important to raise money for NIL than paying for a name brand coach. Find a young guy who can recruit and provide a few Mil in NIL funds to make it work.
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All-In [32656]
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Care to expound on the TD, BBO ?
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:45 PM
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Why shouldn't we all want better than what we have historically done in basketball - purportedly the 2nd largest revenue generating sport in college athletics ?
Just asking - not trolling or instigating.
BloodbeOrange®
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All-In [27374]
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Clemson had a
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:04 PM
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GREAT coaching hire when this guy named Barnes took over. Guys like him don’t come along every day.
Rick saw that Clemson would never be allowed to compete with the big four. Especially with Dean Smiths teams!
It was obvious why he left because he saw the writing on the wall. IF he had stayed we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Support the team. It’s what REAL Clemson men do!
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Clemson had a
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Jan 23, 2024, 4:37 PM
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GREAT coaching hire when this guy named Barnes took over. Guys like him don’t come along every day.
Rick saw that Clemson would never be allowed to compete with the big four. Especially with Dean Smiths teams!
It was obvious why he left because he saw the writing on the wall. IF he had stayed we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Support the team. It’s what REAL Clemson men do!
Yep I definitely agree. Wish the funds would have been made available to keep him but in the end the money may have not been the determining factor. Always felt that he thought the differences in treatment regarding the Tobacco Rd teams and Clemson was a hurdle muddled in politics and was in the end a no win situation.
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Oculus Spirit [77062]
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Legend [16160]
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I can't believe you just figured this out...Clemson basketball is essentially
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:11 PM
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SCU football, we face a lot of the same challenges in terms of conference opponents, resources and historical success...Which makes it absolutely ridiculous to think a coaching change every 4 or so years is changing any of that...Glad you finally opened your eyes up Rocky the Tiger® it's about ####### time
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Legend [16263]
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Re: I can't believe you just figured this out...Clemson basketball is essentially
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:17 PM
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Two key differences between Clemson hoops and SCar football.
1. Football is SCar's passion and they throw everything they can at it and it still doesn't matter. Same ole same ole. That is not Clemson's case with hoops.
2. Former Clemson hoops coaches have actually left the program and their head coaching careers not be over. Several have actually thrived elsewhere following. SCar football is where head coaching careers go to die.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: I can't believe you just figured this out...Clemson basketball is essentially
Jan 23, 2024, 4:38 PM
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SC women’s basketball hired a good X’s and O’s kind of coach. Good person is debatable.
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All-In [32656]
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. . . "a coaching change every 14 or 15 years" . . . fify - without expletives
Jan 23, 2024, 3:28 PM
[ in reply to I can't believe you just figured this out...Clemson basketball is essentially ] |
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and all your other stuff . . . .
Conference opponents ? a chicken team excuse - the semiholes - in their first year, and every one BUT us have been able to do it - win the ACC. Go far into the Dance.
Historical precedence - per my OP - it doesn't HAVE to play the role it seemingly does - especially for the apologists.
And the resources - I think that one has been debunked to death - but feel free to keep bringing it up.
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Legend [16160]
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Sorry you disagreed with your own observation***
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:35 PM
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All-In [32656]
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What ? At no point have I ever said that money (resources), our history, and
Jan 23, 2024, 3:49 PM
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the competition are keeping us from being consistently great in basketball.
What I said is - as it stands right now - Clemson's Basketball program is the same as the chicken boy football program.
And it doesn't have to be that way.
WHY are the chickens bad at football ? I could not possibly care less and is not relevant to making Clemson Basketball a model of how other basketball programs can get to consistent greatness.
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Legend [16160]
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You kill me...You seem to think a coaching change solves all problems...Yet
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:54 PM
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when we had THAT guy in place already, be it Barnes or OP, we failed to retain them...Ever wonder why?
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All-In [32656]
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You seem to be moving the target - first I disagreed with my own statements,
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Jan 23, 2024, 4:07 PM
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per you - and I answered that - and I still have no idea what you were saying.
And now - you are asking have I ever wondered why Barnes and OP left ?
Yes - I have wondered. Barnes leaving was a big thing to me - for a coach that almost smashed Dean Smith right in the mouth on TV, while representing Clemson - he was THE DUDE to me. As a kid and young adult, I wanted to do that to Dean Smith myself - 100's of times.
So yes - I questioned it.
But - today - WHO CARES ? ?
It is a different day & age - we have new leadership that is athletics friendly (The Prez) and basketball persuaded (The AD).
We have improved facilities, we have seen folks outside of tobacco road succeed in the conference - in spades - and there is Something in These Hills that does NOT exclude basketball-oriented individuals.
Yes - I asked why they left. I heard the rumors - chicks, bad schools, other stuff.
Completely irrelevant to today. And tomorrow.
A coaching change solves a LOT of the problems. And if he is who we think he is when we hire him, it will take a LOT less than 14 years to go WAY past what we have established as "the norm" for the past 14 years.
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Legend [16160]
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Good Lord...So Facilities and Support were issues that kept us from
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Jan 23, 2024, 5:24 PM
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retaining Barnes and OP?
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All-In [32656]
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THAT is what you got from above ? WOW. I have no idea why they left -
Jan 23, 2024, 10:51 PM
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and it doesn’t matter to right now.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: I can't believe you just figured this out...Clemson basketball is essentially
Jan 23, 2024, 4:46 PM
[ in reply to I can't believe you just figured this out...Clemson basketball is essentially ] |
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We are wayyy past the every 4-5 year mark. One could say keeping one for 14 seasons has not made any difference, but we all expect better every year and most on here can tell you exactly how things will end up.
Maybe as good as it can get at Clemson. I hope not but nothing historically proves otherwise.
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Oculus Spirit [77062]
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Legend [16263]
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I certainly feel like it's fair to say that basketball was not much of a
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:12 PM
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priority here for the longest time. I do feel like that changed in the 90's though after a period of success under Ellis lifted enthusiasm and expectations. Barnes' presence solidified that, though we were still behind in facilities, commitment, and prestige that he wanted, so he sought it elsewhere - up the ladder. We went the more hopeful route afterwards with Shyatt, counting on some program continuity there that simply did not come to pass.
OP I thought was an excellent and progressive (not in the color sense but style) hire, and though unconventional he breathed significant life and expectations back into the program that it had been missing. Him leaving for DePaul was not a step forward / up the ladder move - something else was up there which many have expounded on here. So more of a snakebit kind of situation TBH.
After OP we aimed high, fell short, then chose a style route in BB that echoed successes of similar style coaches at less endowed institutions of the time. Since, it's been something of a comedy of errors from a timing standpoint - ready to take it up a notch only for BB to do just enough to warrant keeping on, only to revert to the norm quickly after, then rinse and repeat.
IMO Neff has an incredible opportunity at hand to be the one of all of our past AD's to actually get hoops to turn the corner for us and be a star like so many of our other programs. Many football first schools have picked up on the importance of success in basketball along the way, and TBH the revenues that football generates over these past several decades have to be spent somewhere - they can't pocket profits.
To me, this is where we are in the equation. A football first school yes, but one that is simply behind our peers today because we just can't seem to shake loose of a program leader that delivers just enough at key moments to keep us in that middling ground and not beyond. Clemson offers a vastly different landscape and promise today than it did when Brad was hired. It's barely comparable. We are in a great position to bust through that ceiling in hoops with the right leadership in place, and we won't need to break the bank to do it. It might cost more later, but if so it would be paying for itself with performance.
Go Tiger Basketball! You can do it!
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Starter [376]
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Re: A previous post in a response got me thinking - Is Clemson Basketball
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:26 PM
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Look at the conference as it stands right now. Only 3 teams in a 14 team league are below .500! UNC and Duke are not what they were under Coach K and Dean smith (or even Roy Williams). While still great teams, I don't think we can compare the bad old days with where the ACC is currently. It's there for the taking with the right guy at the helm. Don't think Brownell is the guy. After 13 years, you'd think he'd seen it all and figured it out.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: A previous post in a response got me thinking - Is Clemson Basketball
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Jan 23, 2024, 4:41 PM
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Barnes would be salivating if he was dealing with the current ACC.
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All-In [30841]
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Current acc or all acc ?***
Jan 23, 2024, 3:48 PM
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Starter [376]
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Current******
Jan 23, 2024, 3:51 PM
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: A previous post in a response got me thinking - Is Clemson Basketball
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Jan 23, 2024, 4:17 PM
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Only thing I disagree with is in regard to Banners for players. Its actually really hard to get your Jersey retired at Clemson. There is an academic component, if I remember correctly, that I believe sets us apart from UNC. I think you have to be a 3 time academic all American or something like that, in addition to the success on the court. I think that is why only Banks, Kennedy and Davis are the 3 Jerseys hanging up. I don't think that is the case at UNC. That said, I understand your point you are making. They have had way more phenomenal type players than us.
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All-In [32656]
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I was talking about achievement banners only - like the chicken boys
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Jan 23, 2024, 4:30 PM
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1969 conference champion banner hanging up at the roach.
We have some banners hanging up for achievement that are akin to NIT Final 4 . . . . etc.
At least the chicken's banner IS a legitimate (I guess it is legitimate - not sure, don't care) conference championship.
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