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Replies: 221
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All-In [44054]
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Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:17 AM
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I can understand wanting more success for our program - I think we all do. But if you read most of the posts here, you would think that we are an ACC cellar dweller.
Perhaps that belief is based on the fact that historically, we are at or near the bottom of the ACC in men's basketball. Our history in men's basketball is pretty bad. However, that simply isn't the case now.
In the Brownell era, our average ACC finish is 7.2, in an ACC that has had 15 member schools for the majority of Brad's tenure. In the most recent half of his tenure, our average ACC finish is 6th. Last year, we finished 3rd.
I know I won't change anyone's mind here about Brownell, and I'm not trying to. I just wish some of you would stop acting like we are horrible. Given our program history and resources compared to other schools (many of whom care a lot more about basketball than we do), being in the top half and sometimes upper fourth of the conference is not only a long way from bad, it's an accomplishment.
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Orange Blooded [2821]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:18 AM
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I’m ok with perpetual mediocrity and the once a decade round of 64 appearance.
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110%er [5483]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:18 PM
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Dump Brownell...past time to move on.
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Oculus Spirit [82075]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:20 AM
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CU Guru [1749]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:00 AM
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Lmao!!!
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Legend [16733]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:20 AM
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It does stink between a few unexpected wins that we get from time to time. I thought we would lose to FSU but dang those guys have fallen a bunch from a few years ago. Glad we won but it is not a trend I see us having.
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Orange Blooded [2043]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:23 AM
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One can set the metric anywhere and make any argument they want …
You’ve set the metric as the ACC…
Many complaints here state -
- The ACC isn’t what it used to be..
- The metric is the NCAA tournament..
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All-In [44054]
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Generally speaking, we need to have success in our own conference
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:47 AM
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before we can expect to have success on a national level.
Conference success doesn't guarantee an NCAA Tournament invite, but if we don't do relatively well in the ACC we aren't going to get an invite. That's always been the case, it's just harder now with more good basketball teams and conferences nationally.
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CU Medallion [64592]
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Part of that is because the media now pushes the narrative...
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:53 AM
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that the ACC is a weak basketball conference.
Part of that is also due to losing to Quad 4 opponents or other games we should absolutely be winning.
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All-In [44054]
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We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall.
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:56 AM
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We have been hurt by a few bad teams at the bottom, but the top 8-10 teams are very good each year.
The ACC's performance in the NCAA Tournament reinforces this.
It was our own fault that we didn't make the Big Dance last year, not the ACC's. We shouldn't expect our conference to compensate for several quad 4 losses. I don't think any team from any conference would've gotten in last year with those bad losses on their resume.
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CU Medallion [64592]
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I agree that the ACC is not a weak conference overall...
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:07 AM
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I also agree that it was our own fault that we didn't make the NCAA Tournament last year.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: I agree that the ACC is not a weak conference overall...
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Jan 23, 2024, 10:07 AM
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Glad we won the Not. Oh, we went out in first game.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:25 AM
[ in reply to We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall. ] |
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Perfect example of your misrepresentations. The ACC has not been 10 team strong in a decade regardless of your media conspiracy narrative. Our top 2-3 advancing in the tournament casts no reflection on the rest of the conference. They don’t even play the rest of the conference on an even basis anymore. And, ironically to your statement, Clemson under Brownell has been the one usually hurting the conference with bad OOC losses and entering the conference slate with a NET/RPI in the bottom half of the conference but climbing our way up and dragging down everyone else’s. We’ve flipped the ###### this year.
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All-TigerNet [14472]
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Re: We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall.
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Jan 22, 2024, 2:33 PM
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User Logo
viztiz®
All-TigerNet [14390]
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Re: We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall. 4
Jan 22, 2024, 11:25 AM [ in reply to We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall. ]
Reply
Perfect example of your misrepresentations. The ACC has not been 10 team strong in a decade regardless of your media conspiracy narrative. Our top 2-3 advancing in the tournament casts no reflection on the rest of the conference. They don’t even play the rest of the conference on an even basis anymore. And, ironically to your statement, Clemson under Brownell has been the one usually hurting the conference with bad OOC losses and entering the conference slate with a NET/RPI in the bottom half of the conference but climbing our way up and dragging down everyone else’s. We’ve flipped the ###### this year.
MUST BE REALLY SAD TO GO THROUGH LIFE WITH SUCH HATE FOR ONE MAN IN YOUR HEART. WISH I COULD ACTUALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU PEOPLE.
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Trainer [26]
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Why do you hate everyone ?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 3:39 PM
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Why do you hate everyone ?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 8:41 PM
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His response doesn’t even make sense.
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Legend [17312]
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Legend [17626]
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Bullcrap.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall. ] |
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Back up that statement with some data and stop spouting your opinions as facts. Here's some data that says the ACC isn't a great basketball conference -
The ACC is 5th in Bracketologists' and Warren Nolan's rankings, behind Big 12, Big Ten, SEC, and Big East. Only the PAC 12 is a worse Power5 conference and they won't be around much longer.
The ACC has 2 teams in the top 25. Big 12 - 6, Big 10 - 4, SEC - 4, Big East - 3. Heck, even the Mountain West has 2 teams in the top 25.
The ACC has had at least one member make a deep run in the tournament for the past several years, but that doesn't make it a great conference top to bottom. And a member or two making a run in the tournament doesn't mean that "the top 8-10 teams are very good each year." Is a #68 Net team a "very good team"? Not in my book. That's how far down you have to go to get the the 8th ranked ACC team.
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All-In [44054]
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Tell us you don't watch much college basketball
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:47 AM
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without telling us you don't watch much college basketball.
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Legend [17626]
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Re: Tell us you don't watch much college basketball
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:49 AM
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Wrong, Daughter Brownell.
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Heisman Winner [134658]
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This man breaths Clemson sports and to say he doesn't watch Clemson
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Jan 22, 2024, 1:06 PM
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athletics is a joke.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Tell us you don't watch much college basketball
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Jan 22, 2024, 8:42 PM
[ in reply to Tell us you don't watch much college basketball ] |
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Typical JK - when you’ve been proven wrong deflect and say something totally nonsensical and cliche.
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All-In [44054]
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I wasn't proven wrong.
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Jan 23, 2024, 11:49 AM
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My opinion is that the ACC is still a strong basketball conference, albeit diluted some as a result of conference expansion.
I believe the top 8-10 from the ACC could go head to toe with the top 8-10 from any other power 5 conference. That's what I see with my eyes watching ACC basketball as well as basketball from other conferences.
You are free to disagree if you like, it doesn't matter to me.
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Legend [16919]
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Every available metric says you are wrong
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:39 PM
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but yes, you can hold any opinion you want. No matter how easily debunked.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall.
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall. ] |
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We have been hurt by a few bad teams at the bottom, but the top 8-10 teams are very good each year.
The ACC's performance in the NCAA Tournament reinforces this.
It was our own fault that we didn't make the Big Dance last year, not the ACC's. We shouldn't expect our conference to compensate for several quad 4 losses. I don't think any team from any conference would've gotten in last year with those bad losses on their resume.
I believe we currently have 2 teams in the top 25.
We could definitely be a lot worse but it’s the same thing every season. Win a couple of great games and then lose to possibly the worst team in ACC history in Louisville last season. It’s just predictable and fairly frustrating. To say we stink would be way off base imo as we could be a lot worse no doubt, but not sure having Clemson on the schedule strikes fear into anyone.
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Athletic Dir [869]
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If the top 8-10 teams annually are very good, and our average finish is 7.2,
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to We both know that the ACC isn't a weak conference overall. ] |
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then Im not sure we are doing much to write home about.
Yeah its good not to finish 13th every year, but getting to so few NCAA tournaments since Purnell left is pretty poor quality too. No one is asking for a national championship, but we're pretty nonexistent as a player in college basketball overall.
Also, we know what we're getting now, there's not much changing the outlook because the basis has been in existence for so long. We'll have some decent years now and then, maybe be on the NCAA bubble 3 out of 5 years, mainly getting left out but an occasional play-in game. If that's fine with you and makes sense, then good. I just think something better should be desired, we need to stop doing the same thing and expecting different results.
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All-In [44054]
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Again, this thread isn't arguing that finishing 7th is good.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:21 PM
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The point is that it's not bad either. Our program isn't horrible like many people here portray it as being, and I don't understand why fans of the team would go to such great lengths to criticize it and bash it.
If people want a different coach, that's fine, but is it really necessary to bash the program in the process?
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Again, this thread isn't arguing that finishing 7th is good.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:40 PM
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Actually by pretending that we should have been an NCAA team when we weren't as justification for continuing Brownell's employment Neff has absolutely invited this degree of scrutiny and criticism.
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All-In [44054]
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No, it doesn't stink.
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks? ] |
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We've finished 10th or lower just three times in Brad's 13 years.
We have never been last.
We have been:
3rd x 2 (2018, 2023)
4th x 1 (2011)
5th x 1 (2021)
6th x 1 (2014)
7th x 2 (2012, 2016)
8th x 1 (2019)
9th x 2 (2015, 2020)
10th x 1 (2022)
11th x 1 (2013)
12th x 1 (2017)
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: No, it doesn't stink.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:43 AM
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Those numbers prove abject mediocrity. Most Clemson fans would like more and realize that is not going to happen as long as Brownell is the coach. Just because Clemson has been average in basketball in the past does not mean Clemson should not strive for better results. The starting point is a new head coach. Brownell is the longest tenured basketball coach in Clemson history. We know what we will get from him. Why not try for better?
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All-In [44054]
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Mediocrity isn't the same as saying we stink.***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:58 AM
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110%er [5483]
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Re: Mediocrity isn't the same as saying we stink.***
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Jan 22, 2024, 2:00 PM
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Mediocrity is unacceptable
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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All-In [44054]
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There are literally multiple posts here daily
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:21 PM
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talking about how bad we are.
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Legend [17312]
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All-In [44054]
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Neither. I'd just like to see people who are supposedly fans of the team
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:23 PM
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to stop being so hypercritical of it.
I don't expect people to adjust their expectations. I'd just like to see people be more objective about the program.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Neither. I'd just like to see people who are supposedly fans of the team
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:38 PM
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But it’s ok for you to be hypercritical of Dabo under the guise of being a fan who cares. Got it.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: No, it doesn't stink.
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:48 PM
[ in reply to No, it doesn't stink. ] |
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And you believe this is the reason we should keep him? That’s the best we can do? Come on man you going to have to bring some bigger ammo if you want to convince anyone Brownell is the guy.
Strange only a handful feel like he is the guy which puzzles me if he is indeed the man to lead Clemson to new heights. Do we want to be a top 25 team or do we want to continue to try to squeak into the NCAA’s.
JK I would say our minds work totally different because we are on 2 totally opposite ends of the spectrum on this topic.
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All-In [44054]
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No, this isnt an argument to keep Brownell.
Jan 22, 2024, 3:17 PM
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It’s an argument against this ridiculous notion that we are a bad team or horrible program.
As I said, it’s fine for people to want to see more success for our basketball program. I certainly do. But bashing the program by painting it as bad is unfair - and it’s wrong.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: No, it doesn't stink.
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Jan 22, 2024, 8:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: No, it doesn't stink. ] |
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THIS IS THE BEST WE CAN DO! (regardless that 3 of our last 4 were clearly better).
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All-In [32656]
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About half the time in BrownL's tenure, we have finished in the bottom
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Jan 22, 2024, 2:09 PM
[ in reply to No, it doesn't stink. ] |
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half of the conference . . . . and you are using this to prove something positive about BrownL ?
Unbelievable, really . . . .
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Orange Blooded [3290]
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Re: No, it doesn't stink.
Jan 25, 2024, 6:25 AM
[ in reply to No, it doesn't stink. ] |
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Two things, we have not been consitant and lately, since 2018, not fun to watch. Not playing defense like we used to and can't hit shots against good defenses (5 min draughts and anyone, anytime, anywhere can take a 3).
4th x 1 (2011)
7th x 2 (2012)
11th x 1 (2013)
6th x 1 (2014)
9th x 2 (2015)
7th x 2 (2016)
12th x 1 (2017)
3rd x 2 (2018)
8th x 1 (2019)
9th x 2 (2020)
5th x 1 (2021)
10th x 1 (2022)
3rd x 2 (2023)
Just my 2¢
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks? ] |
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That is basketball. The number 1 team in the country has lost multiple "unexpected" games this year. Duke just lost to pitt.
It's wild that so many on here think brownell sucks, yet they hold him to a higher standard than basically any coach that has ever coached here.
The last half of brownell's tenure, we have won more ncaa tourney games, been better in the acc tournament, have nearly double the ranked wins, more top 10 wins, and have had a better ACC record than oliver purnell's teams. For whatever reason, our fans love purnell, but hate brownell.
The constant complaining started w/ a single loss to memphis, then ramped up to an all time level with the 3 game losing streak. A 3 GAME LOSING STREAK IS UNFATHOMABLE!!!! We have had a 3 game losing streak in every season except for 2 since 1990.
I get that some want a coaching change, and that is fine. I will want a coaching change too if we dont make the tourney this year. The problem is that our "fans" are generally uneducated about basketball, have delusional expectations, and let their hatred of brownell bleed into simply rooting for our student athletes.
It's bizarre.
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Recruit [94]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:00 PM
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That is basketball. The number 1 team in the country has lost multiple "unexpected" games this year. Duke just lost to pitt.
It's wild that so many on here think brownell sucks, yet they hold him to a higher standard than basically any coach that has ever coached here.
The last half of brownell's tenure, we have won more ncaa tourney games, been better in the acc tournament, have nearly double the ranked wins, more top 10 wins, and have had a better ACC record than oliver purnell's teams. For whatever reason, our fans love purnell, but hate brownell.
The constant complaining started w/ a single loss to memphis, then ramped up to an all time level with the 3 game losing streak. A 3 GAME LOSING STREAK IS UNFATHOMABLE!!!! We have had a 3 game losing streak in every season except for 2 since 1990.
I get that some want a coaching change, and that is fine. I will want a coaching change too if we dont make the tourney this year. The problem is that our "fans" are generally uneducated about basketball, have delusional expectations, and let their hatred of brownell bleed into simply rooting for our student athletes.
It's bizarre.
Why do so many mediocrity-loving people refuse to have higher standards? Brownell has done NOTHING here. He’s been here forever and accomplished nothing but disappointment. He needs to be fired this season.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:49 PM
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That is basketball. The number 1 team in the country has lost multiple "unexpected" games this year. Duke just lost to pitt.
It's wild that so many on here think brownell sucks, yet they hold him to a higher standard than basically any coach that has ever coached here.
The last half of brownell's tenure, we have won more ncaa tourney games, been better in the acc tournament, have nearly double the ranked wins, more top 10 wins, and have had a better ACC record than oliver purnell's teams. For whatever reason, our fans love purnell, but hate brownell.
The constant complaining started w/ a single loss to memphis, then ramped up to an all time level with the 3 game losing streak. A 3 GAME LOSING STREAK IS UNFATHOMABLE!!!! We have had a 3 game losing streak in every season except for 2 since 1990.
I get that some want a coaching change, and that is fine. I will want a coaching change too if we dont make the tourney this year. The problem is that our "fans" are generally uneducated about basketball, have delusional expectations, and let their hatred of brownell bleed into simply rooting for our student athletes.
It's bizarre. Why do so many mediocrity-loving people refuse to have higher standards? Brownell has done NOTHING here. He’s been here forever and accomplished nothing but disappointment. He needs to be fired this season.
And I believe that is the point. Clemson can do better.
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All-In [44054]
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I believe we can do better in many sports at Clemson.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:25 PM
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That doesn't always mean firing the coach. It can also mean changing assistant coaches, altering strategy, changing the way recruiting is approached, etc.
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All-In [44054]
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Who said supporting Brad and thinking he's a good coach
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:43 PM
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Who says supporting Dabo and thinking he is a good coach means believing the portal is bad? YOU DO.
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CU Guru [1256]
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All-In [44054]
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You're looking at it wrong. Brad hasn't simply "had" more time.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:26 PM
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He's earned more time, AND he has been loyal to Clemson to continue building the program.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: You're looking at it wrong. Brad hasn't simply "had" more time.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:38 PM
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how, besides his continued presence, has he demonstrated "loyalty". What has he reinvested in the program? We supposedly didn't have the budget for quality assistants until 2 years ago. Yet Brad's salary has more than tripled in his time here. That's well above cost of living or inflation increases. And the bump in pay for his new assistants was only a couple hundred thousand dollars combined. So for more than a decade he knew he had an inadequate budget to be competitive but he prioritized maximizing his own personal gain. That kind of "loyalty". And please, these aren't my assertions. This is the logical conclusion of your numerous assertions about the program.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: You're looking at it wrong. Brad hasn't simply "had" more time.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:46 PM
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You know, loyalty. Like all the charitable programs and foundations he has set up, the public appearances, the showing up at other Clemson sporting events to show support for them. Oh, wait….
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Trainer [26]
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Orange Blooded [2918]
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Why does Judge Keller act like our football program stinks?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:25 AM
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Legend [16733]
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Re: Why does Judge Keller act like our football program stinks?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:30 AM
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Judge watching Brad enter the room
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All-American [572]
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Re: Why does Judge Keller act like our football program stinks?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:33 AM
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lol
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All-In [44054]
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Our football team doesn't stink, but it has underachieved recently.
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to Why does Judge Keller act like our football program stinks?*** ] |
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That's based on the plethora of resources and advantages our football program has relative to virtually all of the teams we play.
That's not true for basketball, where we don't have these advantages and typically punch above our weight class.
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Heisman Winner [134658]
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Football won the ACC in 2023. How is that underachieving?***
Jan 22, 2024, 11:04 AM
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All-In [44054]
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No, we didn't.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:15 AM
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We won the ACC in 2022.
While winning the conference was great, it was still an underachieving season because we were picked 4th in the AP's preseason poll, and a playoff team according to numerous experts and analysts.
We were never really a serious playoff contender, were blown out by Notre Dame and Tennessee, and lost to our rival. We finished outside the top 10.
How is that not a disappointing season when viewed in context of the many advantages our football program has and what we were expected to do?
We didn't have a bad season, but we did underachieve.
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Orange Blooded [3961]
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Re: No, we didn't.
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:44 PM
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And you don't credit Dabo for Clemson having those advantages? Outside of the Danny ford years Clemson football wasn't close to those blue bloods and was thought of as a mediocre program. Dabo was not only able to get us to start winning a lot more but also Changed our whole program. He got with the athletic director and talked to the boosters and even made nice with the school president. He got everyone to row the same direction. Dabo has brought Clemson football to places most of us never thought were truly possible. Now a down year is 9 wins and 10 wins with an ACC title. That's what making a great hire can do for a program and I still have hope we can actually make a slam dunk hire in basketball as well.
You seem to think the buy in has to happen first. I actually think the winning and the right coach can change the perspective for most fans and then we will see more buy in.
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All-In [44054]
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Of course Dabo has a lot to do with the ascension of our program.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:35 PM
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He was an absolutely critical piece of it, but he didn't start being successful until he was given an increased budget for better assistant coaches, as well as being granted facility upgrades and additions. Without that, Dabo would've likely maintained us at 7-9 win seasons like Bowden did.
It seems that you feel sorry for him that our standards are as high as they are for football. If so, that's ridiculous. That standard is partly driven by Dabo, and also an expectation of a large portion of the fan base as well as the athletic director and school administration. That's why we pump so much money into football, including paying him the high salary we do.
You guys can't have it both ways. You can't brag about our great facilities and fan support and recruiting rankings, and then get upset when people don't celebrate a 9-10 win season. Expectations are, and should be, relative to the advantages and disadvantages a program has. It's romantic to think of a great coach overcoming all sorts of adversity and building a consistent winner, but that isn't reality.
If high standards for football aren't acceptable, then we should stop pumping so much money into it.
Likewise, if high standards for basketball are going to be implemented (which would be great!) then let's start supporting the program in a way that is commensurate with that, just as we have with football. Currently, we are not, and it's silly to hold a coach responsible for that.
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Heisman Winner [134658]
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Besides correcting my type-o, where am I wrong? Basketball has been
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Jan 22, 2024, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to No, we didn't. ] |
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a total let down the past ten plus years. We lose several games and you disappear and now we win one and you come on here with your mess. You say we were never a playoff contender, basketball is never in contention to make the NCAA's. Yes, football finished outside the top ten but basketball never finishes ranked under Brownell.
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Heisman Winner [140588]
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Speaking of Type-O...
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Jan 22, 2024, 2:30 PM
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I think I see some on the other poster's lip, Myfo.
Maybe he was in Myfo's chair?
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All-In [44054]
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This is where some of you lose me.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Besides correcting my type-o, where am I wrong? Basketball has been ] |
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Why do you think it has been a letdown?
What are your expectations for the program, and what are they based on?
We were in contention to make the NCAA Tournament last year, and are again this year as well. If your standards are higher than that, great! But in that case, they should be based on more than just a desire to do better. This is why I keep harping on how little we spend on basketball and how poorly we support basketball at Clemson relative to teams we compete against in the ACC.
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Heisman Winner [134658]
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You said the football team underachieved in 2022. They were in
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Jan 23, 2024, 8:41 PM
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contention to make the playoffs again for the 7th time up until the last game if the season.
Let's just wait until after this season and see where we end up.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Our football team doesn't stink, but it has underachieved recently.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Our football team doesn't stink, but it has underachieved recently. ] |
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Yet another completely fabricated misrepresentation. What resource does our basketball team lack. Name one? You can’t because this is yet another fallacy.
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110%er [5483]
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110%er [5483]
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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All-In [44054]
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What spin?
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:39 PM
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You don't think our football program has underachieved recently?
You don't think our football program has many advantages that our basketball program does not?
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: What spin?
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:51 PM
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I think the gap between administration support for football and basketball has closed in recent years. We may not spend as much in our basketball team as some schools we compete against but our results are often worse that many teams that spend even less than we do so your argument is conveniently limited to comparing to the teams that do better than us. Also known as spin.
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Orange Blooded [2000]
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CU Medallion [64592]
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Not horrible, but mediocre and inconsistent are the norms not the exception***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:26 AM
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All-In [44054]
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Inconsistent relative to what?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:49 AM
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Relative to other teams, or relative to what you expect from Clemson basketball?
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CU Medallion [64592]
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Relative to...
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:55 AM
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how the team plays from one game to the next and, in some cases, from one half to the next.
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All-In [44054]
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My point is that the nature of basketball breeds inconsistency.
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:59 AM
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Every team will have its ups and downs over the course of a season. That's what happens with a game where only 10 players are on the court at once, the performance of a few players can dictate the result, and the season is long (30+ games).
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CU Medallion [64592]
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Yea but CBB coached teams tend to take it to the Nth degree***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:13 AM
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Legend [16919]
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CU Guru [1374]
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All-In [44054]
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Amazing resources and funding? LOL, seriously?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:56 AM
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CU Guru [1553]
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Do we not consider a $100 million dollar investment in Clemson Basketball
Jan 22, 2024, 9:19 PM
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amazing resources and funding? How much does Morehead State invest in Basketball?
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All-In [44054]
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Plenty of schools invest heavily in basketball.
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:49 PM
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Many of the teams that have the kind of success a lot of you want to have invest more than we do; some significantly more.
I know that many of you see anything devoted to basketball and assume that our program has the latest and greatest bells and whistles, but that isn't the case. Neff is improving this, but keep in mind that we are always fighting against our poor basketball history and the perception that we are a hardcore football school at the expense of basketball.
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CU Guru [1553]
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All-American [572]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:27 AM
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You stink
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All-American [572]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:29 AM
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P U!!!🙊
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All-In [44054]
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Legend [16262]
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Doesn't take long for folks to see that you are a Tater hating troll.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:24 AM
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hth
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All-American [572]
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:29 AM
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Sometimes people dislike the antagonists so much they wind up transferring those feelings to the team. The feelings for Brad are what they are and you aren't going to change that either, and those feelings also can get caught up in the perception of the program. The reality is if we set those things aside, most of us are solid fans of the players and what they are trying to accomplish.
How many times have you heard someone say, "I really love those guys but I can't support them because I can't stand ______." This is human nature and I think it explains some of how a lot of people feel. If some of the snide comments went away and the need to feel like you have to defend every negative comment that comes out with your own snark or shot at the FB program, most people would probably let go of some of their frustrations and express less dissatisfaction. You can't keep telling someone their baby is ugly and expect them to support you.
Just one man's take, but this is kind of how I see it.
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All-In [44054]
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It seems that you are excusing immaturity and calling it "human nature."
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:54 AM
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The vitriol spewed here over our basketball program is ridiculous. As I said in my original post, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about Brownell, but it would be nice if the people who claim to support the program would stop talking about it like it's a losing program. It's not.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: It seems that you are excusing immaturity and calling it "human nature."
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:59 AM
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Maybe they aren't really talking about the program... That was kind of my point.
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: It seems that you are excusing immaturity and calling it "human nature."
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to It seems that you are excusing immaturity and calling it "human nature." ] |
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His point is that much of the basketball hate in this forum is a direct result of you bashing Dabo and the football program any chance you get. Then when you get called out about it you deny it.
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All-In [44054]
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Anyone who claims to be a Clemson basketball fan
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:57 AM
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but hates the program because of posts I make on an online message board has major issues.
That's not my problem, that's their problem.
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: Anyone who claims to be a Clemson basketball fan
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:19 PM
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Ah, progress. For once you didn’t deny you bash Dabo and the football program every chance you get. Now I feel like we are getting somewhere.
On a side note I still have high hopes for this season. I do think the recent increased support and resources to our bball program will make a difference.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: It seems that you are excusing immaturity and calling it "human nature."
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Jan 22, 2024, 8:55 PM
[ in reply to It seems that you are excusing immaturity and calling it "human nature." ] |
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You are the one who “spews” vitriol and jealousy toward the football team. I don’t post anything that could be considered vitriol toward the basketball team or coach. My posts do call you out for being the jealous troll that you are. If you took the same approach toward the football team you might not catch so much flak on here.
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All-In [44054]
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LMAO.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:03 PM
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I realize that my criticism of our football program is hard for some of you to understand, since it's perfect in your eyes. But there are some issues with the program, and someone doesn't have to be jealous or have an agenda to point them out.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night though...
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: LMAO.
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:02 PM
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Sleeping at night has never been an issue but nice deflection attempt again. So you must think the basketball program is better than perfect because I and a lot of others who still support the football team and remain positive about it, have been way more critical about the football team than you have ever been about our basketball team and coach. These comments on your part that we think Dabo is perfect, or can do no wrong, or we somehow worship him, or are part of some cult is just wrong and more deflection on your part. You should really get over yourself. Commenting about what someone else needs to do to be able to sleep at night is petty and childish. You don’t know anything about me or others on here. But you keep doing you and your cliche responses to deflect the conversation.
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CU Guru [1057]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:33 AM
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In my opinion Clemson SHOULD be making the NCAA tournament more than missing it. With 68 teams now in the tournament we should be good enough to make it. I am not even saying every single year. Just make it more often than you don't. Changes need to be made so this happens.
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All-In [44054]
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I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:00 AM
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If we don't make it this year, Brad will likely be fired. I would support that decision.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:04 AM
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And yours is a reasonable response...
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Legend [16919]
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Re: I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:30 AM
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Except he’s says #### like this when he’s trying to feign being conciliatory.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:44 AM
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But in another 15 games or so, he won't be able to run and hide from it so easily.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:41 AM
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You are almost solely the reason so much vitriol has been directed at the program within these digital walls. You have spent many, many years distorting Brownell’s performance and our history for your purposes. You’re doing it in this very post. Your constant attacks on Dabo contrasted with unwavering support of Brownell’s floundering leads any rational person to the conclusion you’re simply a troll. Granted a very committed one who has played a very long game here. But a troll nonetheless. And thankfully you have lost all credibility on this board.
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110%er [5972]
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Its not the team that everyone thinks stinks***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:43 AM
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: Its not the team that everyone thinks stinks***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:50 AM
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Spot on. We have the talent to win. Do we have the coaching to win?
Average is not good enough.
We are Clemson!
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Its not the team that everyone thinks stinks***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:51 AM
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We have nit been average this year.
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: Its not the team that everyone thinks stinks***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:54 AM
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Freudian slip with "nit"?
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Legend [15813]
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Basketball program DOES NOT equal B.Brownell. HTH***
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:50 AM
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Legend [19950]
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Fun fact
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:53 AM
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Ignoring other users doesn't stop their TDs from affecting your pulse anymore.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Fun fact
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:58 AM
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I guess the mods got tired of seeing someone ignoring 600 people at a time...
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All-In [32656]
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Do you have proof of this ? I don't think that is the case. If you TD one of
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Jan 22, 2024, 5:04 PM
[ in reply to Fun fact ] |
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jk's post - just picking him at random - it will show he has 1 TU (from one of the other 3 cultists) and 3 TD's (per the usual for a troll) and it will show the "pulse" of that post at 25% - but it has always done this.
What it doesn't do is change his lying, misrepresented 85% overall. That doesn't change - because he has nearly 60 people on ignore. So their TD's do not affect his PRIDEFUL, inaccurate contribution to the community.
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Legend [16158]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 26449
Joined: 11/18/03
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His pulse has a hard floor of 85%, it's not going below that unless an admin
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:43 PM
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changes that
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Legend [16158]
TigerPulse: 90%
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It's been that way for a while***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:40 PM
[ in reply to Fun fact ] |
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All-In [32656]
TigerPulse: 100%
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According to B-Meist - a week.***
Jan 23, 2024, 2:23 PM
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Heisman Winner [140588]
TigerPulse: 100%
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He grew up a Tiger.***
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:22 PM
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Legend [16158]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 26449
Joined: 11/18/03
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"I'm a moderator" ..."I had to wake up another moderator"..."You're on
Jan 23, 2024, 5:14 PM
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probation"
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Oculus Spirit [82075]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17311
Joined: 1/14/17
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Don't forget to ask for that apology.
Jan 23, 2024, 6:27 PM
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.
Message was edited by: classof1994® because
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Legend [16158]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 26449
Joined: 11/18/03
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Thanks again for the assist***
Jan 23, 2024, 7:02 PM
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Legend [17615]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14162
Joined: 10/24/10
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Did you catch the home tourney game
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Jan 22, 2024, 10:56 AM
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vs. #247 Morehead State? Now frame that game as a baseline for most pressure games and moments over the last 13-14 boring predictable years.
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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Joined: 2/22/03
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Why this fetish with the NIT loss to Morehead State?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:03 AM
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It comes up here daily, and it's weird.
Yes, it was a bad loss. No, we shouldn't have lost to them.
But when we got the NIT invite, many of you said that it's a meaningless tournament. Some fans said they didn't care, and others promised not to watch.
But then we lost, and it's suddenly a monumental tournament and a horrible loss that can never be forgiven.
So odd.
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Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: Why this fetish with the NIT loss to Morehead State?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:33 AM
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It’s emblematic of the last 13 years and is literally the last “consequential” game we played. Losing it had consequence - the season was over. He made it abundantly clear he was referring to how it represents his overall lack of achievement. He also failed in the UVA game before - a game anyone who truly follows college basketball and tourney selection knew we needed to win make the tourney.
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Letterman [275]
TigerPulse: 90%
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Re: Why this fetish with the NIT loss to Morehead State?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to Why this fetish with the NIT loss to Morehead State? ] |
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Its not weird. It keeps coming up because it was so predictable. No one ever expects us to do well in a tournament and BB seems to consistently deliver. I could care less about the 3 game slide this season or the win over FSU on the road, February / March is where it seems we come up short, and I'll make that prediction right now,
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11552
Joined: 10/12/14
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Re: Why this fetish with the NIT loss to Morehead State?
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Jan 22, 2024, 9:01 PM
[ in reply to Why this fetish with the NIT loss to Morehead State? ] |
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You mean like your fetish with the football team’s losses to SC, ND and Tenn that you repeatedly bring up, including in this thread?
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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I haven't brought those losses up nearly as much as the Morehead State
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:22 PM
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loss gets brought up here.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: I haven't brought those losses up nearly as much as the Morehead State
Jan 23, 2024, 2:04 PM
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Easily as much as any one individual has brought it up.
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Orange Blooded [2849]
TigerPulse: 65%
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Joined: 6/9/00
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Because they are on the Fringe
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:04 AM
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The Lunatic Fringe. They spend too much time whining about the transfer portal in football and a lot of time cheering for losses in basketball. They enjoy seeing Clemson coaches get fired. Weird group.
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Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: Because they are on the Fringe
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:35 AM
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Can you please let us know why it was okay for you to publicly pull for Bowden’s dismissal but we aren’t allowed opinions on Brad. I want to figure out how we can all get in line and be perfect fans like you.
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Orange Blooded [2000]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Obviously he owes Brad for something***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:55 AM
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CU Guru [1553]
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Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: Brownell winked at him once while Cobb was occupying two chairs courtside***
Jan 25, 2024, 12:18 AM
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Walk-On [119]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:04 AM
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Because some folks just like to complain
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110%er [6982]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:13 AM
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Today’s ACC is three or four good teams, and everybody else is mediocre to bad. Finishing in the middle of the pack as an average is not what and Tiger fan should want. I think winning the conference once in 14 years is a completely realistic expectation. Otherwise, disband the program. If your goal is not to win a championship, then what exactly are you doing?
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CU Medallion [67853]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:14 AM
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what they use it for is something to gripe avbout. Most dont care but they can whibe it takes away money football could use and act like Brad wrecked the Ferrari of a program we had. They should be paid no mind.
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Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:42 AM
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More fallacy. No one thinks Purnell built a Ferrari - literally no one. If we’re gonna use car analogies Purnell was able to trade up our high mileage Ford Fiesta for a nice new F-150. When he left we should have been looking for someone to help trade up again - maybe into a nice new F-350. Instead we’ve been traded down to a high mileage Ford Ranger. Much nicer than the Fiesta Shyatt left us with but clearly not as good as the F-150 Purnell left behind while somehow having paid more for it and financing it at much higher interest.
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Legend [16158]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 26449
Joined: 11/18/03
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Why do you think we had to settle?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:57 PM
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Hall of Famer [22393]
TigerPulse: 99%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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The drop off in post season opportunity during the Brownell tenure relative
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:21 AM
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to the prior 30 years and his lack of charisma and his inability to sell his vision of the program to recruits and fans. He seems lazy and lacks a sense of urgency in recruiting. Most fans don't understand why he has been given so much opportunity with so little to show for it during a time of unprecedented investment, success, and attention for Clemson overall.
Clemson NCAA Tournament Appearances
1980, 1987, 1989, 1990
1996, 1997, 1998
2008, 2009, 2010
2011*,2018
2021
* Entirely due to Oliver Purnell's recruiting.
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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He doesn't lack charisma.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:45 AM
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Many of our fans are just too lazy to look for anything more than sound bites and controversial statements.
I get it, that's true in society at large today. But if you spend any time around Brad, you know that he's an intense competitor. His practices are hard. He's a vocal and high energy guy.
Brad's biggest problem is that he's not Dabo. For many Clemson fans who worship Dabo, they view anyone who isn't like Dabo as lacking in enthusiasm.
As for selling his vision to recruits, a quick glance at the talent on our team shows that Brad is doing a good job. PJ Hall is an ACC Player of the Year candidate, and is on the list of 25 Wooden Award candidates. Girard could've gone a lot of places, but he chose to transfer here. He's one of the best three point shooters in the history of the ACC. Younger players like Godfrey and Wiggins have really bright futures.
While I agree that recruiting isn't Brad's strong suit, our 2024 class is currently 23rd nationally according to 247Sports. We haven't had many basketball recruiting classes ranked that high during our history.
https://247sports.com/Season/2024-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings/
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Hall of Famer [22393]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31287
Joined: 11/30/98
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Brad's biggest problem is Brad. Blaming the fan base for the lack of Tournament
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:59 AM
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appearances is a recent phenomenon. That didn't happen during the Barnes and Purnell tenures. Blaming Dabo for Brad's lack of charisma seems oddly misplaced at best.
Some bend over backwards to blame everybody and everything other than the guy who makes millions to lead the program.
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32967
Joined: 2/22/03
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Who is blaming the fan base for the lack of tournament appearances?***
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:40 PM
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CU Guru [1374]
TigerPulse: 97%
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Joined: 1/2/20
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Re: Who is blaming the fan base for the lack of tournament appearances?***
Jan 23, 2024, 12:44 PM
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The issue is coaches who are paid the same or less have accomplished more. Programs with less funding have accomplished more. FAU made it to the final 4 for gods sake, along with San Diego st. How much funding do their programs have? What do their coaches make?
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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Joined: 2/22/03
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As you know, there will always be outliers.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:21 PM
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There are examples of 3-star quarterbacks who have won national championships, so should we stop recruiting 4- and 5-star QBs but maintain our expectation for high-level football success?
And there are also examples of football coaches who are paid much less than Dabo who have had better seasons than he has recently. Perhaps we should pay him or someone else for less?
Regarding your basketball examples, I don't think anyone questions whether it's possible for the stars to align for Clemson basketball and make a Final Four. Sure, it's possible, but it isn't likely. If we are always looking for lightning to strike and us have the exact right coach and perfect collection of talent to have a really special season, we are likely to be waiting a long time. It hasn't happened in 100+ years of Clemson basketball, has it?
Besides, we want a consistently successful program, and not be a flash in the pan. And there are lots of things that consistently successful programs do that we don't. I acknowledge that those programs also have really good coaches, and I think we have one too.
This is why my argument has always been that we should put these things in place now, for two big reasons. One, it gives our current coach every advantage, and/or removes potential disadvantages, as much possible. It allows him to show what he can truly do without fighting such an uphill battle. And two, it puts us in a great position to hire the next coach should we find ourselves in that position.
In case you didn't know, we almost always go way down our list of preferences when hiring a basketball coach. Being in a nice college town in the ACC with a great football team sounds appealing to many of you, but it doesn't to a top college basketball coach who wants to be well-supported and well-funded and have a chance to win big. Multiple coaches have refused our offers in the past because they didnt think we were serious about basketball. That perception exists for a reason, whether many of our fans want to acknowledge it or not.
This is why we typically go the "young up and comer" route when we hire a basketball coach. That hasn't worked well, so when we hire our next coach - whether that be in 2024 or not - I would like to see us go for someone great who has had success as a head coach at the high major level. I believe this is possible at Clemson, provided that we aren't scared that it will hurt our status as a "football school." Many Clemson people wear that as a badge of honor, to the detriment of our basketball program. I hope we can have the maturity to view ourselves as a football school as well as a basketball school, and support the two accordingly.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11552
Joined: 10/12/14
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Re: As you know, there will always be outliers.
Jan 23, 2024, 2:13 PM
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Pretty much that entire statement applied to our football program and hire when Dabo was promoted to HC. He wasn’t a sought after proven commodity and he certainly wasn’t very highly paid right off the bat. Your “up and comer” comment fits that hire very well. The huge spending can after the football program started showing it was worthy. You said earlier Brad had earned his time at Clemson. Yet you make it sound like Dabo hasn’t earned his salary and should be giving the university a refund on a pretty regular basis.
It would be really good to see you “ have the maturity to view ourselves as a football school as well as a basketball school, and support the two accordingly.”
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11552
Joined: 10/12/14
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Re: He doesn't lack charisma.
Jan 22, 2024, 9:07 PM
[ in reply to He doesn't lack charisma. ] |
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It’s just really ironic how you accuse people of worshipping Dabo when you take every cheap shot at him that you can and appear to be the one who worships a particular coach.
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32967
Joined: 2/22/03
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I don't worship Brad. I freely acknowledge his weaknesses and mistakes.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:25 PM
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Those of you who worship Dabo can't seem to do that. There is always an excuse or a justification. It's really weird.
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Legend [17626]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11052
Joined: 10/13/08
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I don't worship Brad. I rarely acknowledge his weaknesses and mistakes.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:59 PM
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FIFY
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11552
Joined: 10/12/14
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Re: I don't worship Brad. I freely acknowledge his weaknesses and mistakes.
Jan 23, 2024, 2:19 PM
[ in reply to I don't worship Brad. I freely acknowledge his weaknesses and mistakes. ] |
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To use your type response - tell me you don’t read my TNet posts without telling me you don’t read my TNet posts. I’ve been critical but fair of Dabo and his program. I was one of the first people here to be critical of our receiving group when most wanted to put all the blame on DJ. The difference is that I very rarely single out one player or coach to blame. And I understand that the coach’s salary has not direct correlation to future wins and losses. Your fixation with that is really weird.
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Orange Blooded [2000]
TigerPulse: 96%
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Joined: 2/10/02
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It does have a slight odor if you are downwind.***
Jan 22, 2024, 11:22 AM
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110%er [7535]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 10/28/17
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:28 AM
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From what I can tell, you and few others are CBB fans and not Clemson fans. Who cares what the history of the program is? True Clemson fans want better for the basketball program than falling midland in the ACC and mediocracy in which CBB has been given a fair shot at this point. With CBB's best teams last couple of seasons, we continue to see the same results.
I have nothing bad to say about CBB, he has been a good mentor for the program and coached through a tough period when there were no home games. But the investments are not showing on the court. I think many fans are ready for a change as it seems CBB has hit his plateau at Clemson.
I think Clemson is worthy of NCAATs 3 out of 5yrs with a little run in the tournament as an expectation. CBB isn't getting that done and the 1st round loss in NIT last year just seems a common problem with lesser teams.
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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Joined: 2/22/03
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It's funny that you think I'm a Brownell fan and not a Clemson fan.
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:53 AM
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I guess I grew up going to Clemson games, graduated from Clemson, and joined TigerNet over 20 years ago in preparation for Brownell being our coach.
I believe he is a very good coach, and has had to overcome a lot of stuff people here either aren't aware of or don't care about. Being the basketball coach at Clemson is a really tough job, and the program is often at a disadvantage. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have lofty goals for the program, but it does mean having the ability to view our program through the proper lens and adjusting expectations accordingly.
It has only been within the last year or two that the program has finally gotten good support from the administration. That is to Neff's credit. And since then, we've been doing really well. We had a good year last year, and are having a good year this year. Recruiting has improved as well. Whether that's enough is up to Neff and the Board of Trustees, but they will make that determination after the season. I wish people would let the season play out before declaring this season a failure. Unless their goal was to go undefeated, all of our goals are on the table at this point.
I don't blame fans for wanting better for our program. What I have a problem with is fans who think we spend a lot of money on our program (we don't), pay our coach a lot (we don't), and have great fan support (we don't), yet still expect a coach to magically make us a perennial basketball power. It doesn't work that way.
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110%er [5483]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1/19/05
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Re: It's funny that you think I'm a Brownell fan and not a Clemson fan.
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Jan 22, 2024, 2:09 PM
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Yada yada yada
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All-In [40492]
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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No we don't.***
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:26 PM
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 10/12/14
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Re: It's funny that you think I'm a Brownell fan and not a Clemson fan.
Jan 22, 2024, 9:12 PM
[ in reply to It's funny that you think I'm a Brownell fan and not a Clemson fan. ] |
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This is different than you accusing a 1984 CU grad who supports the football program and coach of being a Dabo “cultist” or worshipper how? Must be tough seeing people rightly call you on the irony.
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Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: It's funny that you think I'm a Brownell fan and not a Clemson fan.
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Jan 22, 2024, 9:16 PM
[ in reply to It's funny that you think I'm a Brownell fan and not a Clemson fan. ] |
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As usual a phalanx of lies. Nothing in that word salad explains why, even if every obstacle you describe were true (they’re not), why Brownell can’t reach a plateau equal to or better than 3 of his last 4 predecessors. Brad is is one of the top paid coaches and on the ACC. He is paid more than Hubert Davis - a UNC coach who made it to a national championship. So your assertion we don’t pay well is so easily disproven it is obviously a lie. You’ve never provided credible budget info or ever once answered the question - what has Brownell been denied? - because you have no answer. And no one expects us to go from mediocre to “perennial powerhouse”. So straight up strawman argument. So despite the effort to establish your bonafides, your last paragraph is purely insincere, dishonest pablum revealing your trollish intent.
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All-In [30460]
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Joined: 12/20/99
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:29 AM
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How many ACC regular season championships do we have?
How many ACC tournament championships do we have?
How many NCAA tourney births do we have?
How many NCAA tourney wins do we have?
How many of those under BrownL?
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32967
Joined: 2/22/03
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:04 PM
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We have 1 ACC regular season championship (Ellis).
We have 0 ACC Tournament championships.
We have 12 NCAA Tournament berths (Foster 1, Ellis 3, Barnes 3, Purnell 3, Brownell 3). I am counting our 1990 berth, even though those wins were later vacated.
We have 9 NCAA Tournament wins (Foster 3, Ellis 1, Barnes 2, Brownell 3)
So Brad has 25% of our NCAA Tournament berths, and 33% of our NCAA Tournament wins.
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Heisman Winner [134658]
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As long as he has been coaching at Clemson, he should have more.***
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Jan 22, 2024, 1:08 PM
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
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Joined: 2/22/03
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You seem to refer to anything you don't like as spin.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:23 PM
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I posted actual data in my previous post. I'm sorry you don't like what they show, but I suggest that you come to terms with them.
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Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: You seem to refer to anything you don't like as spin.
Jan 23, 2024, 1:50 PM
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Actually it could be referred to as the fallacy by omission (I the numerator without denominator fallacy when dealing with statistics). Yes, everything you are saying is technically true but you leave out important contextual data. First, Foster coached entirely before the 64 team era. He made the Elite 8. He trumps everyone. Purnell and Barnes coached less time, against more difficult schedules adjusted for SOS, and took over programs in much worse shape (based on any available metric including recruiting, program SRS, or returning production). Both took their teams to on a much higher percentage basis but successfully took them in successive years. Something Brownell has failed to accomplish a single time.
Plus you assertion without merit. Sportico estimates our 2022 budget at $8.6 million. That is above the average budget of the NCAA tourney field in 2023 was $8.89 million. Brad's annual raises that difference.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 10/12/14
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Re: You seem to refer to anything you don't like as spin.
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:24 PM
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Same “logic” he applies when he says we don’t spend as much in basketball as some of the teams we compete with in the ACC. We also spend more than some teams we compete with who at least sometimes have better results. Omitting part of the data makes his point sound better at least to him - i.e. spin.
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Legend [16262]
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Our basketball program doesn't stink - we have a nice bunch of talent
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:39 AM
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here and a great environment when competitive. It's the leadership of the past 14 years that is producing the odor. Squandered incredible growth in the Paw brand and a relentless cascade of disappointment for the kids in the program each year whose talents are wasted with poor coaching.
Hopeful that Brad doesn't let this year's kids down again through late game mistakes and poor motivation, because by everyone's observations they've shown to be a stellar group. Kudos to Brad for attracting them all. Maybe the hot seat today will work the magic with him that it has so many times in the past when critical turning points are about and he manages just enough.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [2683]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:42 AM
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Our history in basketball isn't bad. It's almost mathematically impossibly bad.
NEVER have we won an ACC tournament - it's been played since 1954 so maybe this 70th anniversary year will be the magical one. Heck we've only made it to the final game twice.
We've only won once in Chapel Hill. In 61 tries.
Our NCAA tournament history is anemic - we got to the Elite Eight once back in 1980.
We did win an ACC regular season championship in 1990, which isn't an official championship since that's reserved for the tournament winner. And we did win a world championship a few years ago FWIW.
I still love Clemson basketball. It would be nice to have more success, but I'm not holding my breath for it. I think the team is pretty good this season and have hope for an NCAA Tournament appearance, but not much more than that.
I'm not against retaining CBB, in particular if we make the NCAA tournament this year. If not, it does seem like it may be time for a change. I don't have much hope that the next guy would have much more success.
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Orange Blooded [2000]
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What would our record be if Shaka Smart were the coach?***
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Jan 22, 2024, 11:42 AM
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:04 PM
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Is the goal to just “not stink” or is the goal to be successful? If it is the latter, I beleive we have set our expectations extremely too low.
What signifies success? The whiny crowd on here fails to define the goal line.
Is it making the NCAA tourney?
Is it winning games in the NCAA tourney?
Is it winning the ACC championship?
Is it winning the NCAA championship?
Is it winning against a sorry conference. Why stay if the low level losses outweigh the wins?
I’m good with setting a goal line, but I believe the current program haters are jaded to the point that even if some success occurs, they will just continue to move the goal line further away to continue their crusade.
Ultimately the administration will decide what they believe is best. I would recommend that those that do not agree to write Neff and quit giving money. Or continue to whine on this message board, because that seems to work.🙄
The team has an upward climb right now and I certainly hope they can survive it, but I’m also about Clemson winning.
Go Tigers!
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All-In [44054]
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I said nothing about goals.
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:31 PM
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To answer your question, my goal isn't merely to "not stink."
My goals for our basketball program are probably higher than they are for most of you. I believe we should be in the NCAA Tournament every year. I believe we are capable of consistently being a top 4 program in the ACC. I believe we are capable of making Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, and hopefully Final Fours.
For that to happen, a lot has to change. We are more than just a new head coach away from that.
As I've always said, if Clemson decides that it wants to go "all in" on basketball, and commit significantly more resources to it, then I am totally fine with a new head coach. But if we are going to mostly keep doing what we've been doing, with some facility upgrades here and there and occasional increases in assistant coach salaries, then a new head coach isn't likely to make much of a difference.
My aim in starting this thread was to genuinely ask some of the detractors here to be more fair and objective about the program. It's fine for people to want more success - I certainly do - but bashing the program and making it out to be horrible isn't correct.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Seems like anything you dont agree witj
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:26 PM
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Is “bashing the program”.
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Head Coach [798]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:05 PM
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I have to hand it to the OP. Almost seven pages of responses to a troll post.
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Orange Blooded [4820]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:09 PM
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Yawn...such clickbait. same old tired arguments. Bottom line is its been over 10 years and past time for our BB coach to make an impact. MAYBE this is the year, but if we flame out again its time to try someone new.
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All-In [44054]
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Making a Sweet 16 isn't making an impact?
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:32 PM
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Beating UNC in Chapel Hill isn't making an impact?
Setting a record for ACC wins in a season isn't making an impact?
If the impact he's had isn't enough for you, that's fine, but making it sound like he hasn't accomplished anything is ridiculous.
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Orange Blooded [3961]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:32 PM
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Why do you and some others keep pointing back to our history as evidence that BB is doing well as our head coach? Our history is bad, I get it. That Doesn't mean fans are supposed to accept mediocrity as our ceiling. Myself and I think most want us to start seeing the NCAA a lot more than 3 times in 13 years. We are supposed to have a very talented team this year and to start the season that appeared to be the case. I still think we have talent, but I feel BB has fallen short on preparing this team and maintaining the momentum we had. No one expected to go undefeated, but we didn't expect to go on the skid we did. I expected to split UNC AND Miami. We definitely shouldn't have lost to both VT AND GT.
Regardless I just feel it's time to move on. BB has shown who he is and has taken us as far as he's capable. It would take a Miraculous run for that to change my mind. As in get in comfortably as a 4-6 seed and then make it to sweet 16 or elite 8.
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All-In [44054]
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You talk about wanting to stop dwelling on our history
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:36 PM
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yet you bring up the early part of Brad's tenure.
Our program is certainly on the upswing if you look at on-court results, conference success, postseason bids, and recruiting over the last half of his tenure compared to the first half.
This year's team has really been impacted by injuries. Jack Clark was a starter, and has been hurt most of the year. Alex Hemenway was to be a key reserve off the bench, and essentially hasn't played. These losses have hurt our depth, and that has cost us at least a game or two.
People are willing to show our football team grace when we have significant injuries, so why is that same courtesy not given to our basketball team?
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: You talk about wanting to stop dwelling on our history
Jan 23, 2024, 2:30 PM
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You don’t show the football team any grace when they deal with injuries. You call it poor roster management because we don’t have quality backups in your opinion. Basketball is different how?
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Orange Blooded [2236]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:43 PM
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I wouldn't say anyone thinks the program as a whole stinks. The coach is just a dullard. He's never too high, never too low. Blames players openly for their failures yet refuses to bench them or show any type of development from backups, instead goes out and gets transfers some of which really aren't that great or don't pan out. I'll also say it's not to helpful to badmouth the facility get the upgrades you asked for or close to it, better than before regardless, and still make comments here and there about needing better facilities or more money. That tends to rub people the wrong way.
I'll continue to post the same thing over and over...I know a respected former SEC, Big East, ACC, SoCon coach and he told me a long time ago, Brad is a great guy, great basketball mind, he'll graduate his kids, he won't have any legal issues or kids that embarrass the university, he'll win alot of games, some he's not supposed to, but at the end of the day he'll be middle of the pack with middle of the pack players at a football school.
Judge, you seem to be very knowledgeable and I respect you for your knowledge and your dedication to BB and CU Bball so I'll ask you who has CU had to fight off to keep from hiring BB away from us? Have any top programs come calling? If he left tomorrow what top programs would be calling him? What mid majors would be calling him?
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All-In [44054]
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Your post has all the usual talking points.
Jan 23, 2024, 1:44 PM
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Most of which aren't accurate.
I don't think he's a dullard at all, but then again, I don't know what you expect.
Saying that backups don't show any type of development is very wrong. There are numerous examples of players developing significantly in our program. Look at how far PJ Hall has come since he was a freshman. Look at RJ Godfrey and Chauncey Wiggins in just one year here. These are just a few current examples.
He's used the transfer portal very well. Again, there are many examples of guys he has gotten from the portal who have made significant contributions to our team. Marcquise Reed, Shelton Mitchell, Elijah Thomas, and Joe Girard are a few examples.
I don't know what you are referring to about Brad badmouthing the facility. He certainly pushed for upgrades, which were sorely needed, but I haven't heard him complain about the current version. However, as needed as it was, it didn't give us the finest facilities in college basketball or anything. In fact, in typical Clemson fashion, corners were cut to save money. It was supposed to be a tear down and rebuild, instead of simply renovating what was there. And it's worth noting that it opened over 7 years ago. Continued upgrades are needed.
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110%er [5483]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 22, 2024, 12:43 PM
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Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion you included. But just because others disagree with you doesn’t mean you can rail on them.
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CU Medallion [61846]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 12:49 PM
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Oculus Spirit [80413]
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Because weve seen the product for over 13 years.***
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Jan 22, 2024, 1:40 PM
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Legend [16158]
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I would imagine it's why he retained his job...We've had 3 ADs who seem
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Jan 22, 2024, 1:44 PM
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to think he's doing a good job
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Legend [16919]
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Re: I would imagine it's why he retained his job...We've had 3 ADs who seem
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Jan 22, 2024, 8:54 PM
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TDP hired him as a desperation shoe-in after being embarrassed by Rick Stansbury. You probably don’t remember that. DRad, who is a mediocre AD that wrecked GaTech basketball, is the one that saddled Clemson with ridiculous raises and extensions for Brownell. Neff, while failing to pull the trigger on firing him, certainly hasn’t extended any more leash. Not surprised you would use an Appeal To Authority fallacy since you can’t actually argue any real merits to defend him.
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Legend [16158]
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Oh, I definitely remember the last coaching change and all the coaches that
Jan 22, 2024, 11:48 PM
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told us thanks, but no thanks...Imagine wanting to stay in Starkville Mississippi instead of coming to Clemson, where we just went to 3 straight NCAAs and had "the best class ever" signed the year before...Really makes a statement about the state of our program at that point huh?
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Oh, I definitely remember the last coaching change and all the coaches that
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Jan 23, 2024, 7:44 AM
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Oh, you mean the one that was TDP’s primary target that pulled a Bobby Cremins on us? Stansbury had been to 6 NCAA tourneys, only missed the NIT once, won 2 SEC tournament championships, won 5 division titles, won 1 regular season SEC championship, and had been at Miss State as an assistant then head coach for 22 seasons. I can’t imagine why he would feel attached.
The only knock on Stansbury was that he had little success advancing in the NCAA tournament. A curious choice to replace a coach whose only knock was an inability to advance in the tourney. But that was TDP’s pick and after being publicly embarrassed he quickly pivoted to a guy who had taken Wright State to the tourney once - as an automatic pick 4 seasons earlier.
And here we are to this day, arguing with people who clearly do not care about Clemson basketball being successful about keeping this guy.
And by the way, you recall lots of coaches telling us “thanks but no thanks” because you made it up and don’t know what you’re talking about. Stansbury was his only serious target and no other offers were made until his about face.
https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/stansbury-nixes-offer-brownell-back-in-mix/article_9757aeae-1f47-52f6-9fbd-50b3b90f8b6a.html
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Legend [16158]
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Legend [16158]
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Posts: 26449
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Legend [16919]
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Re: HeII, Capel wouldn't even interview with us...Sounds like textbook "thanks, but
Jan 23, 2024, 4:55 PM
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I know you are incapable of admitting mistakes but I’m gonna try and break it down for you.
Purnell resigned April 6. Per the Post & Courier, TDP had spoken with the Miss State AD by Thursday and Stansbury was on campus by Saturday April 10. Monday April 12 Stansbury changes his mind and Brownell is immediately named as “in the mix”. The P&C article you linked was published before the one I provided and refutes its assertions.
It says “ Stansbury represented a departure from those candidates (cheap, young).” The article you linked was published 4/9 - less than 72 hours after Purnell’s departure and with Stansbury already on his way to campus. Your two other links are sourcing the same article.
I refute your premise that you remember “all the coaches” that turned us down. His primary target led him on for a week. Then his next target - identified in the very same article that announced Stansbury’s about face, became the coach.
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Legend [16158]
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Are you saying Capel refusing the interview wasn't a Thanks, but no Thanks?***
Jan 23, 2024, 5:11 PM
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Are you saying Capel refusing the interview wasn't a Thanks, but no Thanks?***
Jan 23, 2024, 6:55 PM
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I don’t know one way or another. The same source has published contradictory information and is 1 even 2 extra names = “ALL the coaches” that turned us down. If you think that is the appropriate adjective then I offer my most sincere, heartfelt apology for disagreeing with you.
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Legend [16158]
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So, in your mind, refusing to even grant an interview isn't a "thanks. but no
Jan 23, 2024, 7:06 PM
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thanks...the fact that I doubled your candidate list is also apparently lost on you...No shocker there though
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Rock Defender [54]
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I can see why you'd think that.
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Jan 22, 2024, 1:50 PM
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But let's lay aside those whose criticism of CUMBB is maybe more rooted in their beef with you and your occasionally-controversial football takes (and I believe this is a significant percentage).
Once that's out of the way, it becomes an exercise in determining whether CUMBB is truly an under-performing program. Whether they actually stink.
Some will turn and say the numbers just don't lie. Clemson should win more. Brownell should win more. But what some won't acknowledge is that while numbers don't lie, they usually benefit from context.
The context is that CUMBB has been in the same conference as some of the nation's most immovable juggernauts for quite some time. Which affects outcomes -- wins, recruiting, etc.
Which brings it full-circle. Clemson is a football school, competing in a basketball conference, recruiting against some of the most prestigious basketball brands in the land.
What we feed, grows. What we starve, struggles. Maybe basketball's been underfed for too long.
Either way, I don't think there's a coach yet born who can take Clemson basketball where many wish it would go.
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All-In [27344]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 2:53 PM
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even a blind squirrel should eventually find the nut.....Brownell has been going in circles for over a decade and isnt even in the forest
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CU Medallion [58427]
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Perpetual mediocrity is bad, no matter the reason, and the expectation
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Jan 22, 2024, 3:31 PM
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for Clemson should be higher.
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All-In [44054]
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I agree, but that wasn't the point of my original post.***
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:46 PM
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Trainer [26]
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Two top 40 finishes in 13 seasons isnt good.
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Jan 22, 2024, 3:36 PM
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Mediocre at best.
Where are the people saying “it stinks”.
Seems you made up a bullcrap narrative just for the sake of arguing, Brownell daughter.
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CU Guru [1019]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 5:05 PM
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I agree with you … I think many in this football crazy fan base would back off a little if we had even ONE carrot to show. Maybe one regular season championship, one ACC Tournament Championship, even a tournament finals would be great. Maybe this year? Anybody with even basic basketball knowledge should know this team is pretty good, and we have a legit first team ACC player in PJ.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 22, 2024, 8:37 PM
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But winning 10+ football games for 12 years in a row is underachieving. Got it.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 22, 2024, 9:05 PM
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Only the 3rd all-time to do it. but easily explained by resource differences. Brad is the better coach.
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Legend [16158]
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Starting the season ranked in the Top 10 and finishing outside of the Top 20
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Jan 23, 2024, 7:47 AM
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Do you use the opinions of others as the primary benchmark of success in your personal and professional life? Or just when you’re being a hypocrite on the internet?
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All-In [32656]
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Those same talking heads that had us at 10 preseason - with no clue as to what
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Jan 23, 2024, 1:44 PM
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we had "under the hood" - and are now being used as the de facto 'benchmark" for underachieving - are saying we are a 3 seed in the Dance. A THREE SEED ! ! ! ! ! - lolololololololol
So if we end up a 7 or 8 seed - or a play-in team that has to win one to get into the tournament - or we don't even make the Dance . . . . CLEARLY that is an abysmal coaching performance and the dude needs to be fired - right, Cultists ? Because somebody said we are a three seed.
And according to the cultists, we should be having a ticker tape parade because this three seed in January PROVES the folks that want Clemson Basketball to be better than we have been in the last 14 years - are completely ignorant to anything related to basketball.
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Legend [16158]
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So your premise is that we were over rated to start the season? Is that
Jan 23, 2024, 3:01 PM
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what you are saying Rocky the Tiger®
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Legend [16158]
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Where's my hypocrisy?***
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Jan 23, 2024, 8:52 PM
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Now the Francis Marion® has gotten involved my attorney advises me to let the mod handle this.
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Heisman Winner [140588]
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Legend [16158]
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No, I went on no moral crusade, I said it didn't bother me repeatedly, I just
Jan 23, 2024, 8:16 PM
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used his post as an example of your hypocrisy...You pretended to be a mod, but you TUed a post that a real mod would deem an attack in a thread where you were acting like an authority figure an attempting to enforce board rules...When I pointed this out, you made up the ridiculous conflict of interest defense...You also said it was a childish episode and you wouldn't talk more of it...then you referenced it at least twice today...Bottom Line, you are not a mod...but if you were, you did a crappy job of either identifying the attack or enforcing board policy on it...Either/or...You like pretending you're in charge so I'll let you decide
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All-In [44054]
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: More spin from you.***
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Jan 23, 2024, 2:34 PM
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Not spin at all. You have said the football team has underachieved for the last several years many, many times. Nice try tho.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 22, 2024, 9:31 PM
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We don't hate it. We want to take it to the next level. Brad can't deliver that.
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Orange Blooded [3558]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:01 AM
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I did not read this, except the title.
Good lord Judge.
This is not a good basketball program. The best of the best came probably back during the late 70s and early 80s with Foster.
Since then, it’s been coach after coach. Coach after coach that cannot win in the postseason. Well I mainly refer to the last 2 coaches we’ve had.
And no, you cannot say because Brownell has more wins than Purnell and other better stats, that Brownell is better. Purnell left early.
You can never know what’s going to happen with our team. That is the thing that should be obvious. We can look good at times, but then we just start to lay eggs.
There’s no consistency.
I don’t even know why you tried to make an argument about this in the first place.
Almost every school has at least one elite 8 or sweet 16 appearance.
We have a really, really, really solid depth chart. All-ACC guys. But something about Brownell makes every team start spiraling at some point in the season.
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Head Coach [758]
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People are just tired of never getting over the hump
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Jan 23, 2024, 9:19 AM
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You could really make an argument that Clemson’s basketball program is the worst program in ACC history and that just isn’t acceptable.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: People are just tired of never getting over the hump
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Jan 23, 2024, 9:56 AM
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Not disagreeing with you. Here’s my take on college basketball. The goal is to win a national title. The only way to win a national title is to make the NCAA tourney. Any season you are not in the tourney you failed to even be eligible to compete for the actual goal of bothering to play college basketball. Of the current 15 teams in the ACC, only 6 have ever won a national championship. Only 4 have ever won multiple. But only Clemson, BC, and VT have failed to make a Final Four. Regardless of win percentage, ACC championships, tourney appearances, or any other factor, if you win a national championship it outweighs all the rest. The only way to win one is to be in the tournament. Accepting a coach that only puts the team in the tourney 25% of the time is completely unacceptable. I’m not saying I expect Clemson to hire a new coach and play for a title in a couple seasons. We need a coach who can establish us as a team of that makes the tournament on a regular basis. 60%+ rather than 25%. Once that baseline is reestablished then we can assess what is needed for the next step. Barnes and Purnell proved that Clemson can be a program that makes the tourney consistently. And neither are exactly Hall of Famers (Barnes may very well be inducted but I don’t think he’s in the same category as recent inductees Jim Calhoun or Roy Williams - more of a Bo Ryan but Bo made a final). Barnes has 1 Final Four despite coaching at Texas for 17 seasons with virtually unlimited resources. If he could take Clemson to 3 straight tourneys with all of our supposed challenges and taking over a program considered the worst in league history, there are plenty of coaches who can do better than Brad Brownell.
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All-TigerNet [14472]
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Re: People are just tired of never getting over the hump
Jan 23, 2024, 7:33 PM
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User Logo
viztiz®
All-TigerNet [14511]
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Re: People are just tired of never getting over the hump 4
Jan 23, 2024, 9:56 AM [ in reply to People are just tired of never getting over the hump ]
Reply
Not disagreeing with you. Here’s my take on college basketball. The goal is to win a national title. The only way to win a national title is to make the NCAA tourney. Any season you are not in the tourney you failed to even be eligible to compete for the actual goal of bothering to play college basketball. Of the current 15 teams in the ACC, only 6 have ever won a national championship. Only 4 have ever won multiple. But only Clemson, BC, and VT have failed to make a Final Four. Regardless of win percentage, ACC championships, tourney appearances, or any other factor, if you win a national championship it outweighs all the rest. The only way to win one is to be in the tournament. Accepting a coach that only puts the team in the tourney 25% of the time is completely unacceptable. I’m not saying I expect Clemson to hire a new coach and play for a title in a couple seasons. We need a coach who can establish us as a team of that makes the tournament on a regular basis. 60%+ rather than 25%. Once that baseline is reestablished then we can assess what is needed for the next step. Barnes and Purnell proved that Clemson can be a program that makes the tourney consistently. And neither are exactly Hall of Famers (Barnes may very well be inducted but I don’t think he’s in the same category as recent inductees Jim Calhoun or Roy Williams - more of a Bo Ryan but Bo made a final). Barnes has 1 Final Four despite coaching at Texas for 17 seasons with virtually unlimited resources. If he could take Clemson to 3 straight tourneys with all of our supposed challenges and taking over a program considered the worst in league history, there are plenty of coaches who can do better than Brad Brownell.
such hate for one man has got you to writing long drawn out meaningless drivel. maybe you should think of seeing a professional.
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All-TigerNet [10640]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 23, 2024, 9:57 AM
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I support Brad , as I think he is a good man, and personally I had rather have him than say Bruce Pearl. But you can't lose games to an inferior opponent when you are up 9 points with 1:43 on the clock. Name one time that Roy Williams, Mike K, or anyone else for that matter in our conference did that.
I hope we make the tournament this year and that we keep Brad and he will show that he should be here.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 23, 2024, 10:04 AM
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Because it does stink.
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All-TigerNet [11658]
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It's frustration, man!!
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Jan 23, 2024, 10:32 AM
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Clemson was decent last season, but still couldn't make a 65 team field at the end (NCAA). Then loses to Morehead State first round NIT! We all want Clemson to be competitive, but the pattern of frustration continues year after year!! Everyone that is a long time Clemson hoops follower knows the situation, knows the pattern, knows the frustration of wishing for good things and getting the same results!!
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Athletic Dir [890]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:23 PM
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Not gonna change your mind on Brownells ability to get us over the hump but. Most schools that are avg with good coaches do not take 14 years to get back to the level of the team they had when they were hired.
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All-TigerNet [10346]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 23, 2024, 12:39 PM
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Because it does?
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All-In [46574]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
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Jan 23, 2024, 3:22 PM
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🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
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Commissioner [910]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 23, 2024, 7:35 PM
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Congrats of holding up mediocrity as something to be proud of.
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110%er [5484]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 23, 2024, 8:51 PM
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I really don’t have anything to share. I just wanted to be a part of the heard.
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CU Medallion [52460]
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It doesn't stink. It's inconsistent year after year.
Jan 25, 2024, 5:08 AM
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It's the "build us up, tear us down" syndrome that inconsistency causes the fans to experience that is frustrating.
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CU Guru [1025]
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Re: Why do so many people here act like our basketball program stinks?
Jan 25, 2024, 11:46 PM
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Is this a trick question?
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