Replies: 32
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Whew
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Apr 8, 2024, 7:30 AM
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I may have to rethink Christianity after that thread and seeing how simple minded some non believers can be….
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Heisman Winner [121087]
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Post your comments in the thread, simple-minded...***
Apr 8, 2024, 7:41 AM
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CU Guru [1221]
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This, but unironically***
Apr 8, 2024, 7:46 AM
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Oculus Spirit [94496]
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You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 7:55 AM
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never owned a slave think about it?
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 7:59 AM
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Apparently I support slavery.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 8:08 AM
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This is easy, is it ever ok to own people as property?
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 8:29 AM
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I believe at certain times in history and certain contexts someone could be a slave owner and not be morally in the wrong for doing so.
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Legend [17679]
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Thats right _ think of slavery as a trade school for newly arrived immigrants
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Apr 8, 2024, 8:37 AM
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Schools should be teaching the benefits of slavery for both the owners and slaves! It’s critically important that decedents of slave owners and other white peoples do not feel guilty or uncomfortable.
At least according to some leadership in Florida.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: Thats right _ think of slavery as a trade school for newly arrived immigrants
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Apr 8, 2024, 12:45 PM
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lol, has anyone thought of the slave owner's feelings!? come on people...
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CU Guru [1221]
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CU Medallion [56472]
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All-In [30176]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 12:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who... ] |
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I'm gonna back you on that, in a very, very, limited circumstance. It's a considered statement. And to be filed under the "never say never" category. My example is Shindler's Jews.
If those Jews had their 'freedom' in Nazi Germany, they'd be dead. And if they were slaves, under maybe anyone else than Oskar Schindler, they'd be dead. But because they were slaves they lived, and Oskar did the moral thing by buying them to be slaves, in order to protect them, to live. And they loved him for it.
Morality is tough. And 99.999 percent of the time my barometer is "Are both parties consensual?" And 99.999 percent of the time, that's not true in slavery. In Schindler's case, he didn't ask for their consent to be free, or slaves. He just bought them, to save them.
Morality is tough. For instance, is it moral to give a child a vaccine when they most certainly do not want the shot, and thus are not consensual?
Or, is it moral to force an adult from their home, when they will most assuredly die from a flood? They are surely not consenting either. Morality can be perilous ground, especially when one does not know all the factors involved in a situation. It's not always a slam dunk.
Like 'Mr. Gitts' trying to save someone and getting them killed in the process.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 12:38 PM
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“ If those Jews had their 'freedom' in Nazi Germany, they'd be dead.”
Thanks Fordtunate Son. That was my broader point.
Turning a slave loose in a society like the American south in the 1800s or the culture the Israelites found themselves surrounded by possibly would have meant death.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 1:02 PM
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You know what would have prevented that? Not owning people in the first place lmao.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 1:51 PM
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Except it was a part of society that the vast majority of slave owners didn’t create.
It was wrong for the NCAA to deny athletes the right to make money off of their own name. Does that mean every coach in that system was wrong?
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 1:54 PM
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>Except it was a part of society that the vast majority of slave owners didn’t create.
Those poor slave owners, this is getting ridiculous, dude. I don't care if the slave owners didn't create it. Not all the Nazi soldiers created the situation either, they were still wrong and tried for it.
I've said my piece, owning people as property is wrong, period. The bible condones it, therefore the bible is wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 2:00 PM
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You’ve posted the same thing 100 times the past two days.
You should have been done a long time ago.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 2:24 PM
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I mean, it's a simple claim with straightforward text, not sure what the pushback is.
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Team Captain [460]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 6:14 PM
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I'm tracking with you, Echoes and you are correct, conceptually. If the bible contains truth and is the arbiter of morality (written on one's heart, etc.), then slavery should not have ever been a thing OR part of the Ten Commandments (not to own another human). Evangelicals and many believers (in my experience, could be wrong, of course) will most often flip to free will here - and that is the rub. I agree: owning another person as property can never be morally correct, outside of a situation like Fortunate references w/ Shindler's Jews. However, on its face, it absolutely IS not moral (Matt D. gets this right) to own a human as property, full stop. How does that situation impact the well-being of the "slave?" The gymnastics required to untie that knot can get super convoluted - situational slavery ownership is a slippery slope.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 7:39 PM
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"outside of a situation like Fortunate references w/ Shindler's Jews"
There are many instances I could think of like that. A lot of slaves stayed and worked on their plantation after they were freed in America. Obviously they were treated well. So you can't make the absolute statement that everyone who owned slaves was morally wrong for doing so without knowing the full context.
The Israelites were in a situation where slavery was commonplace, but they were ordered to treat theirs as they would want to be treated. That is the full context of the passage. It was not a universal moral law.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 7:59 PM
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>The Israelites were in a situation where slavery was commonplace, but they were ordered to treat theirs as they would want to be treated. That is the full context of the passage. It was not a universal moral law.
"20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."
I'm baffled by you on this, I really am. No, it doesn't just say to treat them as they wanted to be treated.
An nobody is claiming it was a universal moral law. The claim is simple, it is wrong to own people as property. The bible condones owning people as property even if it was only for a time.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 8:54 PM
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I’m just saying that has no bearing on a Christian today.
The “Bible” as a whole does not endorse slavery from the view point of a modern day Christian.
From the view point of the Israelites who it was written to, it was a command to treat slaves better than they were being treated. It must be judged from that view point IMO.
You’re basically making an argument from silence that because the book of Leviticus doesn’t outlaw slavery it is morally corrupt.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 9:20 PM
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>I’m just saying that has no bearing on a Christian today.
The only claim I'm making is that it means the bible has/had flawed morals. I never said or implied it told Christians today to own slaves. The very fact that christians today are appalled by the idea of owning humans showed that the bible allowed something morally appalling at one time.
>From the view point of the Israelites who it was written to, it was a command to treat slaves better than they were being treated. It must be judged from that view point IMO.
But it doesn't just do that. The message isn't "treat your slaves better". Did you skip the verse I just posted? It says you don't get a fine if you beat them with a rod as long as they don't die because they are your property.
A direct and clear contradiction to your claim.
>You’re basically making an argument from silence that because the book of Leviticus doesn’t outlaw slavery it is morally corrupt.
That's not what an argument from silence is. Especially when it explicitly condones it, that's the opposite of an argument from silence.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 9, 2024, 6:43 AM
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It does say to treat foreigners like yourself, as you were once foreigners in Egypt. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt.
Also, the book of Leviticus does not claim to be a morally perfect handbook.
You’re taking down a straw man here.
Maybe if you hopped in a Time Machine and flew back to 2000 BC you’d have an argument.
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 9, 2024, 7:01 AM
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>Also, the book of Leviticus does not claim to be a morally perfect handbook.
>You’re taking down a straw man here.
Ask the Christians on this board if they agree that the law God handed to moses is perfectly moral or not.
They are not going to say that God gave them something anything less than perfect.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 6:21 PM
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Ok?
Still wrong.
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Team Captain [460]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 6:30 PM
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I agree with you.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 6:40 PM
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Kind of defeating our own point though yes? I'm literally just saying owning people is wrong, and you are saying it's a step in the right direction.
Right direction from what? ... being wrong?
This is a very odd hill to die on, i'm a little surprised coming from you.
Again, all i'm going to say to you is owning people is wrong, period. I have nothing left to add.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 6:55 PM
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Where did I say "owning people was a step in the right direction"?
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CU Guru [1221]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
Apr 8, 2024, 7:02 PM
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>Where did I say "owning people was a step in the right direction"?
I thought you just said that, I'm glad to hear i'm wrong, what were you saying exactly?
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Team Captain [460]
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Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who...
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Apr 8, 2024, 6:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: You stand up against slavery and sit idle thinking about what people who... ] |
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I must be missing something as the Bible describes (in great detail) "how" to own people without mentioning that it is morally wrong. So, was that scripture called out in the Bible as being local rules? I know it references various kinds of slaves (where they are from, male/female, etc.), but IMO, if kidnapping is understood to be universally wrong (similar to murder and rape), are we okay that slavery (human ownership) is not specifically named/described as a "global command or law"? In the same vein, should "thou shall not rape" have been a commandment? Why would God not have added that? Has always puzzled me. Anyway, good conversation - I enjoy talking through this kind of stuff (not like Fortunate - not even in the same universe). Thanks!
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