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Orange Blooded [2165]
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If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 14, 2023, 7:20 AM
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why did his brothers have such a hard time believing in him?
Seems like that fact would have overridden any doubts they may have had about his divine status.
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All-TigerNet [12000]
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How would they have known?***
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Apr 14, 2023, 7:52 AM
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Their only chance of knowing was the priest of that day..
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:01 AM
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to have been serving God and studying/remembering the Word of God. The teaching of a Messiah who would suffer and bless all nations was lost during the dysphoria. Many will tell you that the Jews of the days of the Dysphoria didn't agree with NT Christians. They are liars and false teachers. The world follows them for they have the great delusion which causes them to believe lies and blinds them from the Truth.
From Adam to the last prophet they all believed what we believe. They saw a Christ who would suffer and die for their sin and they saw one who would rise from the grave and eventually conquer the world. When they come across a prophesy of a Savior who would conquer the world they believe they understand everything. When they read Isaiah 53, Psa 22 or 110 or the many other promises of a Covenant fulfilling messiah they dismiss it with trivial arguments: history this, Hebrew teaching from the day of Christ to present, that!
I am not sorry and will not apologize for setting the truth on display here. Jesus offends them. It's just as it is suppose to be. The blind leading the blind is exactly what we are supposed to expect and anything less would certify Christianity as a false religion.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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Re: How would they have known?***
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:11 AM
[ in reply to How would they have known?*** ] |
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Really?
If his mother saw that his siblings doubted him she easily could have set the record straight.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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You miss the boat.
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Apr 14, 2023, 8:51 AM
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The Hebrews of Jesus' day were products of the 400+ years of silence from God and most were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire and even further from the Temple. Almost all of them had forgotten the prophesies of the OT which told of a coming messiah who would save their souls because those who read the scripture were misusing the synagogues and even the temple.
The popular message from them, and the one which gains the most for those, real heathen of the day, called priest was the promise of a messiah who would conquer the world and put Jews back in power as rulers and lords. After all, they'd been oppressed by three or four different empires. The popular pastime of the world in those days was, 'Hey Guys, I'm bored, let's go conquer the Jews!
The priest of the day were politicians, think Trump vs Hillary for rhetoric in their quest for power and money. They were looking for a redeemer but one who would remove Rome and put them in power. The true message taught in the OT of a Christ who would redeem their souls by fulfilling their obligations to the Mosaic Covenant was lost.
They had to reject Jesus as messiah, otherwise He would not have been crucified. Rome performed the task, the priest were behind it and the general population of the Hebrew people were neck deep with them in guilt. Jesus' death wasn't an incident and it wasn't an accident. It was the work of God through vessels which were unclean. IT had to be.
You can't see a painting when your eyes are three inches from it. You must step back and see the entire frame to have any concept of what the artist is saying. You'll never know for sure without hearing or reading the artist comments on his work.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Re: You miss the boat.
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:22 AM
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"They had to reject Jesus as messiah, otherwise He would not have been crucified. Rome performed the task, the priest were behind it and the general population of the Hebrew people were neck deep with them in guilt. Jesus' death wasn't an incident and it wasn't an accident. It was the work of God through vessels which were unclean. IT had to be."
Why did it have to be? If God were all powerful, nothing had to be. If God is all powerful, everything that exists, including evil, satan, hell, pain, and suffering, exists only because God wants them to exist. If he didn't want them to exist, he could end them all in the blink of an eye, and accomplish everything he wants or needs to without them; if he can't, then he's not all-powerful.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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How else would God put His selflessness on display?
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:46 AM
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Remember me walking you through how Satan deceived 1/3rd of God angels and causing them to sin? That was an eternal problem which God solved with the radical solution of creating man knowing we would fail and then coming to die for us to display His love.
Jesus sits at God's Right Hand and displays the scars of the cross which prove that God is not a spoiled brat but must remove all other than His perfect will to provide and protect a perfect existence for not only Himself but those who trust in Him as the LORD.
That's about as Readers Digest and I can make it. This is our third trip on this merry-go-round. If you have questions about how I understand what I consider facts in the first two paragraphs, I will take another rotation or two if you think it will clear this up for you.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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I don't know, and that's totally irrelevant.
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:04 AM
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Because if he's all powerful, he could.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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And your explanation dances all round that without
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:21 AM
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addressing it. You are merely giving more reasons and explanations for why God has to do it that way, which goes right back to my point which you continue to dance around. If God is all-powerful, he doesn't have to do anything; everything is a choice for him, which means he chooses to allow evil exist, for some reason; not because he has to, but because he wants to. Jesus's horrible death was not necessary - it was God's free choice that it happened that way - unless you want to claim that God's power does have limits, and that he is not all-powerful after all.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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You're ignoring the fact that angels are free willed beings.
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Apr 14, 2023, 11:03 AM
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As long as you can ignore the facts that the stars and planets obey God with no possibility of ever being worth to become worshipers of God in comparison to angels and man being worshipers you can continue in your lack of understanding of God and His attributes.
God does not force worship for if He did He would be presenting Himself as one unworthy of worship. He would then be no more a god than any of the Pharaohs who were worshiped as god yet now dead as a doornail.
John 4 vs "23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
Let's break that down. The Father seeks those who worship in spirit and truth. The stars obey Him perfectly yet they are not capable of worship in either spirit or truth. No worship or obedience to God is acceptable to Him other than that of a free willed creation.
You think God should have created machines to worship Him?
The idea that God would violate His immutable nature to satisfy your challenge that He can force worship is philosophical tomfoolery.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Here's a very simple, yes or no question ...
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Apr 14, 2023, 11:23 AM
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Is there anything that exists against God's will?
Please, spare the lengthy, wordy explanations that avoid a direct yes or no answer.
Until YOU answer that very simple direct question with a yes or no, every word you utter is a chicken-shit tap dance.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Here's another simple and easy question.
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Apr 14, 2023, 11:43 AM
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Can God make a square circle? See, anyone can come up with a fool's question.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Very, very easy and simple, and unlike you, I won't be a
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Apr 14, 2023, 11:55 AM
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chikenshit and avoid it:
Yes- absolutely - 100% - if God is all powerful, by definition he could make a square a circle.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Thank you.
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Apr 14, 2023, 2:25 PM
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Now admit that with our tiny bit of brain we couldn't conceive of a square circle even if God presented it to us.
Likewise, I've explained God's perspective on time and tried to make you understand that God is not a subject of time, therefore, this world from creation to end is an event to God and only a point in eternity to Him. To us, it is a line but to God a single point which like any point on a line is without measure.
Thus, God's knowing what happens in this world is not from the perspective of one who is predicting but from one who is recording what happened, does that make sense to anyone but me?
Therefore, when God created the world it was already over from His perspective. You insist on limiting God to your finite concepts. Yes, He created a temporal world which reflects the eternal world. It is not incidental that men are fathers and women are mothers. It wasn't an accident that the grapevine in John chapter 15 was such a great representative of the relationships between God The Father, God The Son and man being the branches and the lost being saved as the fruit of the nourishment which comes from the root and vine to the branches.
Yes, God could have left Adam and Eve without a forbidden fruit but where is the glory to God for our obedience in believing Him without His lovingkindness proven at Calvary? The stars and planets serve God's purpose but they are not fit to worship and they have no love. They do not qualify as worshipers though their obedience to God is far greater than any man other than His Son.
If God had made man with no ability to sin, thereby creating a world without sin He would not prevent another angel from usurping His will. We are of eternal importance and that is why the Bible says we will rule with Him when this world is over.
I'm not one to look forward to ruling anything. I'd be happy to scrub toilets, sweep the floor or the streets and serve tables while the rest of you relax and take it easy for eternity but I'm not in charge of the promises of God.
I'm not chickenchit about answering any questions you have but being that we've been through all your tripe three times now I'm satisfied that I'm trying to explain the color orange to Stevie Wonder.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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The only reason we keep going over this is because you
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Apr 14, 2023, 3:04 PM
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won't answer very simple direct questions. Instead you give lengthy explanations for things that require no explanation in order to answer the questions.
Whether or not we can conceive of a square circle has nothing to do with whether or not God can make a square into a circle. Either he can or he can't.
God's perspective of time has nothing to do with whether or not he can turn a square into a circle. Either he can or he can't.
Adam and Eve and forbidden fruit and Calvary and planets and angels have nothing to do with whether or not God can turn a square into a circle. Either he can or he can't.
But, those are all nice distractions which help you avoid answering the question.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Yes, God could do away with sin in an instant.
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Apr 14, 2023, 4:58 PM
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That wouldn't fit His eternal plan. Many believe, as I, that God created man with free will in order to establish His selflessness in demanding everything be according to His will, and that His will wasn't selfish for it was the only vehicle to provide a perfect existence for those who worship Him.
So, yes He could undo this world and live with the fact that 1/3rd of His eternal worshipers believed that He was unjust. After this world ends anyone questioning His selfishness or lack of judging fairly will see the scars in Jesus' hand and feet and know that God's condemnation of any will other than Hs is just.
Yes, He had and has the right to give each of us a painful death and an eternity in a place where He is not. That's fair for all have sinned.
Now you want to ask why He didn't do it to suit you again?
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Okay, so you finally answered the question, sort of.
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:10 PM
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God does not have to allow evil and sin, and Jesus's crucifixion and horrific death was not necessary; he could have accomplished it all without any of that. Those are all God's choices as part of his plan.
That's all you had to say all along.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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I've C&Ped your question, it's in bold.
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:48 PM
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"They had to reject Jesus as messiah, otherwise He would not have been crucified. Rome performed the task, the priest were behind it and the general population of the Hebrew people were neck deep with them in guilt. Jesus' death wasn't an incident and it wasn't an accident. It was the work of God through vessels which were unclean. IT had to be."
Why did it have to be? If God were all powerful, nothing had to be. If God is all powerful, everything that exists, including evil, satan, hell, pain, and suffering, exists only because God wants them to exist. If he didn't want them to exist, he could end them all in the blink of an eye, and accomplish everything he wants or needs to without them; if he can't, then he's not all-powerful.
"Why,' has been your question from the beginning.
The question merited great lengthy discussion. It's not something easy to explain for me for I admit I make leaps of logic which are near to impossible for a dummy like me to understand.
I enjoyed it, thank you for your extreme patients with me. I'm not the best writer but if we met it would be such that with great ease we would have discussed your question.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Still not understanding why God allows things to exist
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Apr 14, 2023, 8:22 PM
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against his will if he doen't have to. If I didnt want to fight, I wouldn't create somebody to fight with, and if I had unlimited power, I wouldn't have to. Nothing in any of your very lengthy explanations answered that.
I do appreciate the fact that you sincerely engaged in the discussion, and believe it or not, I agree with a lot of the points you made. Thanks again.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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It's not as if this disscussion is my first failure.***
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Apr 15, 2023, 11:38 AM
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CU Medallion [58597]
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LOL! Mine either!***
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Apr 15, 2023, 12:06 PM
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All-TigerNet [12000]
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According to the Bible - yes.
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Apr 15, 2023, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to Here's a very simple, yes or no question ... ] |
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The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
This clearly states God's will regarding the fate of humanity.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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That is an interesting take, that the creation of the
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Apr 14, 2023, 4:27 PM
[ in reply to How else would God put His selflessness on display? ] |
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physical universe is God's response to the rebellion of his most beautiful (whatever that means), creation and the resulting fall from Heaven of a third of all of them. Obviously this created an ongoing injustice, or rift, in God's world, a burr under the saddle, so to speak, a thing that couldn't go unresolved. Smiling would ask "why would that be the case", and I too would like to hear how biblical philosophers have addressed this. The first thoughts I have merely restate the issue: IE, "He had to address it because it he couldn't allow sin victory", or something like that, but that's what we already know. 'Why', is the question. I don't know. We know it was the case because He came and died for it.
But yes, calling Satan's bluff closes the loop on the relational permanence God desires. "The penalty is death", Satan says, "Because that is what you imposed on me. So, all your precious ones now belong to me. And there is nothing you can do about it."
"Except pay it myself."
"Gotcha!"
Then he didn't. It's a beautiful story. I know it's true because we know the resurrection occurred. There are a hundred 'why' questions in that story, but those questions are for enlightenment, not for doubt, because we know the story is true.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Can we agree that God chooses to allow Satan and the
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Apr 14, 2023, 4:48 PM
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resulting evil to exist, even though it's not necessary to achieve anything he wants to achieve?
Or, are you saying that God has no choice but to allow Satan and evil to exist, as he is powerless to accomplish what he wants accomplished any other way?
It has to be one or the other, and no explanation or background is needed to answer that question.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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If God is to blame for anything it's that...
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:06 PM
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He created free willed critters like the devil, the other rebellious angels and man. If you want to blame Him for the pain and suffering in this world go for it.
If you want to understand one possible reason why He allows sin on a temporary basis then reconcile yourself to the thoughts I've presented. There may be a million other reason, God knows, why He created man but this one satisfies me.
The selflessness on display in the hands and feet of Jesus throughout eternity will quell any future rebellion for God is just to demand everything and everyone that exist be in His will and behave according to what He sees as right.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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I'm not "blaming", I'm just trying to make sense of what
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:19 PM
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you are saying, and you said that God created free will and evil and the devil. He created them and allows them to exist, so I can assume he wants them to exist, even though he could accomplish anything he wants without any of that. I'm glad to see you admitting to that much.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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I don't think I can agree to that. If God wants love based
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Apr 14, 2023, 6:39 PM
[ in reply to Can we agree that God chooses to allow Satan and the ] |
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relationship, a willful entering into that relationship is a necessary part of the definition, which includes the possibility of willful exit.
This is where you have said that a God who can do anything could create love that doesn't require that characteristic. Can God create truth that allows the lie? Can God create integrity that allows corruption? You would say yes, I would say no. You would say that such a god is not omniscient, I would say that's not the definition of omniscient. If that is your view, then that is where we are.
That of course doesn't change what did or didn't happen. I'm sure you agree that one cannot philosophize a thing into or out of existence. I can satisfy myself beyond a reasonable doubt that the resurrection occurred. I try to understand these questions given that historical occurrence. But you are right that your questions exist.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Re: I don't think I can agree to that. If God wants love based
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Apr 14, 2023, 7:35 PM
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I would liken those foolish questions to asking a man if he could rape a woman. Just because we have the physical strength and proper plumbing to get the job done doesn't mean that our character would allow us to commit such an act.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Let me be sure I understand ...
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Apr 14, 2023, 8:08 PM
[ in reply to I don't think I can agree to that. If God wants love based ] |
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God cannot create a love based relationship without a willful entering into and the possibility of a willful exit from that relationship.
God cannot create a truth that allows a lie.
God cannot create integrity that allows corruption.
Just making sure I understand, per your words, you have listed some things that God cannot do. Do you stand by that?
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Yes, I will stand by what I said, but I do not agree that
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:42 PM
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those things describe what God cannot do, for two reasons, imo:
1. The mere stringing together of words in grammatically correct fashion does not mean that a question has actually been posed. "Can you make a square circle" is not a question. No possible concept has been posed, so no person has been addressed. No answer is required of the grammatically correct symbols that describe no reality.
88 has suggested that God has already made the square circle, but that it exists only where He does. You might require that God produce it here anyway, as a condition of omniscience, though we have not been created to see it. If that is what you require ...
2. ... Consider the phrase, "God cannot". "Cannot" seems to be an expression of imposed limitation. I cannot jump 10' vertically because of the imposition of gravity, nor as high as the next person because of imposition of bad physique. I cannot think of any limitation that is not imposed, including my brain having less density than most people's. There is nothing to place any imposition on God, like the gorilla who walks through your front door: He can go anywhere he wants. That is a philosophical rather than observational truth, because we have not seen or been where God is. But if you are going to ask what God can or cannot do, I am going to ask what imposition can prevent him. The answer is 'nothing'. Therefore, it is very possible for God to self impose limitations, to choose to not do what he could do. There is nothing to prevent him, including our dissatisfaction with how He does things.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Did you mean it when you said
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:25 PM
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Can God create truth that allows the lie? Can God create integrity that allows corruption? You would say yes, I would say no.
Or did you mean something else? If so, feel free to retract and correct, but here you are saying that God cannot do those things (Can God do those things? I would say no).
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Example:
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:51 PM
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Your words:
Can God create truth that allows the lie? Can God create integrity that allows corruption? You would say yes, I would say no.
then
I do not agree that those things describe what God cannot do
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I give up.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Calm down: you asked me a question, and I will try to
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Apr 14, 2023, 11:10 PM
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answer it.
I explained it, I think clearly, in that post. The answer is that I believe that those questions exist grammatically only, so the answer is "no", he cant do it in the sense that no question has actually been posed. However, if one such as yourself insists that anything he can do in eternity (like maybe making a square circle, or integrity that has corruption) he must also be able to do here to indicate omniscience, one then has to propose what limitation on God would prevent him from doing so, and if there is none a self imposed limitation can certainly exist without diminishing omniscience.
No, he cant do a thing that is my grammatical fiction, and yes he can self impose limitations in the absence of limitations, should it be the case that such a square circle can exist in eternity. There, I have used can and cant. In neither case is omniscience put into question. I know you are committed to your use of 'can' and 'cant'. For whatever reason that is, you are welcome to it, I'm not trying to talk you out of it.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58597]
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You have answered the question to my satisfaction.
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Apr 15, 2023, 1:34 AM
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There are some things God cannot do (No, he cant do a thing that is my grammatical fiction).
I don't agree with your explanation; as far as I am concerned, if there are things God cannot do, then by definition he is not all powerful, else he could do them.
Thanks again for the discussion, and it's fine if we disagree.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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It occurs to me that we are not talking about God anymore,
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Apr 15, 2023, 7:30 AM
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but about how we conceptualize and define intangible attributes. That is a fun discussion too.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Maybe, but both are deep and interesting subjects.
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Apr 15, 2023, 11:21 AM
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Having said that, it's ridiculous how we got to the point in this discussion of debating whether or not something is a question based on whether or not it involves merely a grammatical fiction or a concept that is possible on the eathly plane, when the whole point for me was to simplify and strip it all down to the most basic, easily undertandable, common, everyday language. In doing so, I guess I failed massively, but I'm still there in my own mind, and it remains crystal clear to me and much more simple than our discussion would indicate.
Whether we are talking about God or definitions and concepts, my underlying, basic premise remains:
God can do and create absolutely anything he wants, without limit or restriction, or he can't; it can't be both, and it's very easy to say which one believes, without explanation, definitions, or qualification.
I don't accept explaining how there are some things that God cannot do, while mainaining that God can still do any and everything, all while claiming words like "cannot" are somehow unclear, inadquate, or inaacurate. To me that is a totally unnecesssary complication of clear and straightforward language. We all know exactly what "God cannot do some things" means. I mean, if we are debating what a question is or what "cannot" means and what it implies, then all is lost, and all serious discussion has devolved into meaning less drivel. Conversation and communication has become impossible.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Can you kill your wife?
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Apr 15, 2023, 11:44 AM
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Perhaps saying "God will not lie," is different than saying 'God can not lie.'
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Of course I can kill my wife.
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Apr 15, 2023, 12:06 PM
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And I fully understand that "God will not lie" is very very different from "God cannot lie".
None of that has anything whatsoever to do with my point: God can do absolutely anything, without any limits ... or he can't, meaning there are some things he cannot do. It can't be both.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Does she know it?
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Apr 15, 2023, 12:42 PM
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You keep this up and I'm...j/k
I don't believe I could have killed my wife. I have the power but lacked the will.
I'm sorry this discussion degraded to semantics. I believe your position on God's inability to lie or break a covenant was that He isn't really able yet I respect a man who refuses to kill his wife.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: Of course I can kill my wife.
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Apr 15, 2023, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to Of course I can kill my wife. ] |
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I'll complicate things a bit more 
There's obviously no way to know whether God can do absolutely anything or if he has limitations, short of us being God himself. So the closest we can ever get is our perception.
So while there may be only two options available in the realm of yes/no duality, and we're stuck in the world of perception, there's a third option available. He can appear to be all powerful.
When I was a child, to me and my mind, and my perception, my dad "could do anything." And at that time, and that place, and with my mental development, that was absolutely true to me. But now, of course, I understand him as a man who was as limited as anyone else. He didn't change, but I did.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Actually, you simplified the conversation.
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:16 PM
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You interjected perception which governs our limit(s) of understanding. Our understanding is limited by our knowledge and our knowledge of God is limited by the amount of quality time we spend reading the Bible and communing with God.
You are astounding, sometimes.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: Actually, you simplified the conversation.
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:31 PM
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Thank you. Several of us have said several times that
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Apr 16, 2023, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Of course I can kill my wife. ] |
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the alleged dilemmas, devised by humans, necessarily find the boundaries of human understanding, not of God's characteristics. To no avail. Maybe they'll believe you.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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That third option you propose is not an option to the
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Apr 16, 2023, 2:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Of course I can kill my wife. ] |
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question of "Is God all powerful?", or the satement "God is all powerful".
Unless we are back to the "What is 'is' " Bill Clinton-like absurd attempt to deflect and deceive, stating that "God is all powerful" means something entirely different than "God appears to be all powerful". Reality, and truth, exist apart from our perception.
I have said several times in this thread that as mere mortals living in this creation and subject to all of the limitations it entails, we can't begin to fully comprehend or understand God. That's been a given for me from the get-go.
However, when we say that "God is all-powerful", we are using the language of this earthly world of time/space/duality, which assumes the all of the limitations that entails. It means something very clear and specific, and it's either true or it's not, in the here and now, in this earthly existence, apart from our ability to know whether it is or isn't true. In other words, when we say "God is all powerful", we can't also claim "God is not all powerful", which is exactly what has happened, verbatim, in this discussion, by invoking our inability to know God's limitations, or based on our changing perceptions, or based on the suggestion of ambiguous, unclear meanings of every day, commonly understood language.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: That third option you propose is not an option to the
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Apr 16, 2023, 4:23 PM
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>That third option you propose is not an option to the question of "Is God all powerful?", or the statement "God is all powerful".
Sure, which is why I prefaced that option as being within the world of perception -"and we're stuck in the world of perception."
I don't think any of us have the tools to know the reality. (I'll keep things simple by assuming there is one reality, but that's another great philosophical question. For instance, Einstein has shown us undeniably that there is no universal Time. We all have our own Time. Universal Time is just an illusion.)
But back on topic, what we are really all talking about here is what we believe, based on our experiences and perceptions.
One might "think" that God is all powerful, or
One might "think" that God is not all powerful, or
One might "think" that God appears all powerful to limited beings but is in fact not all powerful
But as to the "reality", as we are defining it, I don't know how one proves any of those three possibilities. It may be an impossible question. Like, "what is North of the North Pole", or "what existed before the Big Bang?" There's simply no way to know. We are stuck in a world of perceptions, with limited tools - sight, touch, smell, etc.
And that's in part why I'm neither an Atheist, nor a Christian, anymore. We just can't definitively know, or so it would seem, either way. We don't have the tools to "prove" any of the options. That includes God's possible limitations, or even his existence at all, if one carries that same logic out to its end.
As always, it all comes back to faith.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Brother, I agree 100% that it all comes back to faith.
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Apr 16, 2023, 7:14 PM
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But back on topic, what we are really all talking about here is what we believe, based on our experiences and perceptions.
We just can't definitively know, or so it would seem, either way. We don't have the tools to "prove" any of the options. That includes God's possible limitations, or even his existence at all, if one carries that same logic out to its end.
Yep. That's it. That's why we have faith - or don't; because we can't know. And when I say "know", I mean "know" as it is commonly understood, which refers to having knowledge, which is different from having "faith", as it is commonly understood. If people want to use some alternate meaning of "know" and "faith", then they are talikng about something different than I am.
Yet some insist that we can know. I don't agree.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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There are many things God can't do.
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Apr 14, 2023, 11:46 PM
[ in reply to Let me be sure I understand ... ] |
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He can't remember the sins which are covered by the blood of Jesus. He can't be unjust or lie or break a covenant pr unconditional promise...that list goes on and on.
I can still say God is able and be truthful when I say it. Imagine working for someone with that type of integrity. No really, have you ever met a man who would do whatever it takes to be absolutely honest, one who would sacrifice his son to die on the cross for you, a man who would make a promise and keep all his promises no matter how circumstances changed and even if he had to die to a promise he kept it.
How would you criticize a man with perfect integrity? How then can anyone think less of God for Him limiting what He can do to protect His divine integrity?
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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In previous threads you have thoughtfully stated your
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Apr 14, 2023, 4:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: You miss the boat. ] |
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your view that a God who can do anything would do anything. You have expressed this as questioning whether God did or allowed something, on the basis that doing so didn't seem reasonable. Others have described a countering view, that God can allow all sorts of things that are not what we think are good. Those conversations leave you unreconciled to the matter. I understand that.
The OP now says that if Mary explained the virgin birth to James, James would have known Jesus as Messiah all along. Aside from having to assume Mary told him, and that he would have a different reaction than the OP who doesn't believe it either, we know James later became a leader in the first community of followers of Jesus. One has to account for that. According to the OP, he didn't believe Mary, but then did believe Jesus was the Messiah. How could that possible be? Oh yeah, that resurrection thing. One has to be careful of one's 'gotcha' questions, so as not to have to step through wet paint.
'88's answer, if I understand him correctly, is that Jews of that day were far removed from looking for a personal, moral messiah, and had devolved into looking for a political one, not unlike some Christians today. So, Jesus chooses that time to come, fulfilling all He has promised them, but they blinded to it by their own entitlement, not unlike non believers today. Your response seems to be, "If God could do anything, he would have done it another way." So, two sincere questions:
1. Did I understand you correctly, and is that basically what we discussed earlier?
2. What do you think God should have done?
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Either I misspoke or poorly stated my position, or
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Apr 14, 2023, 4:39 PM
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you misunderstood if you think my view is that a God who could do anything would do anything. To be clear, I do not believe that.
What leaves me unreconciled is the concept of an all-powerful God that is at the same time powerless and has no choice but to do certain things a certain way.
To quote '88:
How else would God put His selflessness on display?, which clearly assumes that God could not have done it any other way ("How else could he do it?")
As to your questions:
1. Did I understand you correctly, and is that basically what we discussed earlier?
I honestly don't know, I don't remember.
2. What do you think God should have done?
Done about what, specifically?
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Re: Either I misspoke or poorly stated my position, or
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:13 PM
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Perhaps you can tell me how else God would display His selflessness. I asked a question and you assumed it was rhetorical. However, I'm open to learning.
What I know is that my explanation for why man exist and sin is allowed temporally is that it solved an eternal question which caused perhaps millions of angel to be condemned to hell.
He happened to love them but the rejected His love in lieu of wanting to be their own individual god. Sound familiar?
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Are you asking me a question or telling me an answer?
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:24 PM
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Again, unlike you, I will answer directly without preaching a sermon and throwing more questions at you.
Perhaps you can tell me how else God would display His selflessness. I asked a question and you assumed it was rhetorical. However, I'm open to learning.
I don't know, but I assume that if he's all powerful there are an unlimited number of ways he could have done it that don't include any evil or death or suffering.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Fair question: done about what? 88's proposition was that
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Apr 14, 2023, 8:47 PM
[ in reply to Either I misspoke or poorly stated my position, or ] |
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"they had to execute Jesus". You questioned why they "had" to. God could have set it up another way.
Adding my own clarification of all this, imo they had do it not because God thought up that plan from scratch before anything was created, but because he created beings who could love, which created the possible rebellion, he responded with the physical universe, the rebellion continued there, and God said to Satan, "I'll pay the ransom." As 88 said, he came when they had already rejected him, the end being a foregone conclusion.
In past conversations we have discussed whether an omniscient God could have set it up another way. My question today was, "What would you have done differently?" The parameters are that God has created being who have the capacity to love, and that they have rebelled from God. Maybe God could have set that up another way, but he didn't: here we are. So, starting there, what would you have done differently from the Gospel?
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Starting from where you are asking me to start would require
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:38 PM
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me to abandon the whole premise of my argument, which is that I don't believe that an all-powerful God would allow things he does not like or want, much less create them as 88 claimed.
But, if I did start there, and as an all-powerful God I could make or create any reality I wanted (as an all powerful God could), and could make any changes I wanted to anything I had previously created, I would change the parameters, fix everything so that evil no longer existed, and so I could love and be loved fully and completely without any evil, sin, pain or suffering of any kind, and no ransom required.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Fair enough. But he didn't. So now what?
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Apr 14, 2023, 9:51 PM
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One now has to choose whether God exists or not. If the current condition, not being what you would do, means God does not exist, go with that. If God does exist, the fact that this condition exists has to mean something. As to whether or not it brings into question his omniscience, I just proposed an answer to your question about that above, so wont take another paragraph here.
Thanks for the conversation.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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To me, it simply means he is not all-powerful, and by that
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:30 PM
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I mean there are some things he can't do, and that his power has limits. You both have given examples of that yourselves. I just don't understand why you and 88 hve such a hard time saying it. I think its because you are commited to a theology or concept of God that won't allow it.
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Hall of Famer [24515]
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Fair enough. For me there is nothing to 'just say'.
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:49 PM
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I think I explained that since there are no known limitations on God, nothing he chooses to not do can be put in the 'cant do' category. I dont know why you cant just say that. But that's fine. We disagree on that point,
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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You lack the ability to admit that your ethics, passions...
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Apr 15, 2023, 1:57 PM
[ in reply to To me, it simply means he is not all-powerful, and by that ] |
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and integrity limit what you will do. If you refuse to do it strongly enough it will be considered as you being unable to do it.
Can you rape a 9 year old child? Your response to that will determine who and what you are.
I apologize for the rudeness of my response but you are attacking my soul's belief. No, I didn't mean 'sole.'
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Of course I can rape a 9 year old girl, and so can you.
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Apr 15, 2023, 2:07 PM
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Because of our morals and integrity, we choose not to. It's a choice. We have the power to change our morals and ethical character.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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I don't believe you.***
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Apr 15, 2023, 2:25 PM
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CU Medallion [58597]
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I get it - God is limited and restricted by his perfect
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:34 PM
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nature, and we are limited and restricted by our ethics and moral character.
You were the one arguing for free will, however (which I agree with), which would entail the freedom to choose to kill my wife or rape a 9 year old girl.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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If you started a plan and figured out that it was flawed...
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Apr 15, 2023, 12:49 PM
[ in reply to Starting from where you are asking me to start would require ] |
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you wouldn't be an all knowing God. That confounds the concept that God knew from the beginning how this world would progress and end.
I would not worship a god who is a fool. I play by ear, My God conducts the orchestra.
I can see why you lack respect for God. He doesn't do things like you'd do them.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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How do I lack respect for God?
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Apr 15, 2023, 2:42 PM
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I just don't accept other people's ideas and opinions about God when they don't make sense. Are you suggesting I should?
If you told me that God had 4 heads, lived in the house at the end of the street and drove a 98 Camaro, should I just accept that?
IF... you tell me that God created all of this, and he is all powerful and could have created it any way he wanted to but chose to create it exactly how he did, knowing exactly how it would all play out, then you are telling me God wanted Satan and evil and sin and hell and suffering. You are telling me that those weren't just unavoidable consequenses, but they were exactly what God wanted.
NOW ... if you are telling me that God HAD to do it all that way, no matter the reason, then he is limited and restricted by something, that thing that required him to do it that way, NO MATTER WHAT THAT THING IS, EVEN IF IT HIS OWN NATURE OR CHARACTER, AS IT LIMITS WHAT HE CAN DO, which means he is not all-powerful. That's fine if you believe that, and that would allow you to reasonably hold the belief that God does not want Satan, evile, sin, rebellion, hell, and suffering, but HAS to allow them.
That has zero to do with whether of not I respect God. It is simply my questioning what YOU are telling me about God. I get that as mere mortals we cannot even begin to comprehend or even accurately conceptualize everything about God, and therefore we can't force God into a box that fits our very limited abilities to do that. That doesn't mean that common sense and reason have to go completely out the window either.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: How do I lack respect for God?
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:18 PM
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Off the top of my head I'd say God isn't all powerful because he doesn't control free will. He could take free will away and make us robots, but he can't control the choices we, and/or perhaps angels, make. And if he did control those choices, we'd no longer be "us." We'd be someone, or something, else.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Define free will.
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:33 PM
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We'd be like the stars and moon which display God's glory but do not otherwise participate in it.
After raising a ton of kids I was happy to spend some time alone but living like a hermit upon top of a mountain for a while I was glad when company showed up.
God would be alone if not for angels and man. That does sound like something I'd want to be eternally alone. That is what defines my concept of hell.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: Define free will.
Apr 15, 2023, 3:40 PM
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>Define free will
Well, on a lark I'd just say choice, any choice. Good or bad, up or down, chocolate or vanilla. The ability to self determine, to some degree.
Now, to expand that concept choice may not matter. If I'm on a sinking ship my choice to sit in a blue deck chair or a red deck chair doesn't stop the sinking of the ship. But it does give me some limited self-determination. Or, choice may matter. I can choose to sit in a deck chair, or plug the hole in the boat. So what impact choice may or may not have is another topic.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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You said you would do things differently if you were God.
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to How do I lack respect for God? ] |
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You also admitted that if you were almighty saw an error, mistake or omission you would make changes to your plan. That might make you an all powerful god but it would make you fallible and not all knowing.
You're not going to make a good god, imo. You just better hope I'm not on the nominating committee if God ever looks for a replacement.
I'll take a god who is all powerful, able to do all things but chooses to adhere to his divine integrity and character and who is also omniscient.
Maybe you'd be sitting alone on your throne with an empty throne room. IDK.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Now I am confused - by your conflicting statements.
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Apr 15, 2023, 4:11 PM
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I'll take a god who is all powerful, able to do all things but chooses to adhere to his divine integrity and character...
Then
There are many things God can't do. He can't remember the sins which are covered by the blood of Jesus. He can't be unjust or lie or break a covenant pr unconditional promise...that list goes on and on.
So, according to your own words, God is all powerful and can do all things, but there are many things he can't to (a list that goes on and on).
GOD IS ALL POWERFUL AND CAN DO ALL THINGS, BUT THERE ARE MANY THINGS GOD CANNOT DO.
Your words.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Semantics. You have a temporal perspective.
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Apr 15, 2023, 5:22 PM
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I try to take the long view.
If we can agree that an asymptote is defined as: A straight line whose distance from a curve is less than any assignable quantity, but which does not meet the curve at any finite distance from the origin;
then we assign 'can't,' to be straight line and 'won't,' to be the curve we can agree that in our finite perspective won't never becomes can't. From that perspective I'd agree, you win.
However 'finite,' is not a limit to God. I know, sounds like double talk, but truthfully, I believe God is infinite and not limited by time. In fact, it's a foundational part of the conversation we had many months ago via Tmail. Member?
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Because it is double talk.
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Apr 15, 2023, 6:51 PM
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You say one thing, then say the exact opposite in direct contradiction to the first thing. Two things, both of which cannot be true. I've been through this with CUintulsa. It's not semantics - it's one party pretending that commonly understood language does not mean what everyone understands it to mean. If that's the case, I give up as all conversation is pointless, as we can have no idea what the other person is talking about if the meaning of words like "can't", and "cannot" are malleable and uncertain or can have different meanings, or that a question isn't a quiestion if the answer can exist in eternity but not in the earthly plane.
It's all double talk, or BS, or just dancing around the truth.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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CU Guru [1299]
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Re: You miss the boat.
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: You miss the boat. ] |
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The voice of reason. Unfortunately, it will not be heard by the great religious majority. They are too worried about dying - the basis if all religion.
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CU Guru [1299]
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Re: You miss the boat.
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:11 PM
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"Correction: "...the basis OF all religion".
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All-In [34130]
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Re: If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:00 PM
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If Santa is really fat, how does he fit in everyone's chimney?
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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I don't have a chimney but he always makes my place.
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Apr 14, 2023, 5:22 PM
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I believe he has a master key because I've changed the lock on Dec 26th for over six decades and he still eats my cookies and drinks my milk. He took my eggs this year so Easter is going to be too expensive to celebrate.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: I don't have a chimney but he always makes my place.
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Apr 14, 2023, 6:22 PM
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I'm fascinated by your detailed posts 88. Since you've been generous with your understandings, I have a few questions if you'll permit. Not to put you on the spot or anything, but since you've shared some, maybe I can coax you into sharing a little more? (In other words, I want to exploit your openness to enhance my own understandings "> )
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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I'm positive about everthing...
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Apr 14, 2023, 7:57 PM
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I think I know. Shoot.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: I'm positive about everthing...
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Apr 14, 2023, 8:51 PM
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Thanks. If I’m reading your posts correctly, this is how I'm understanding it. Correct me where I’m wrong.
1) God created the universe, consisting of planets, etc. The planets, etc., “obey” God in a mechanical sense. That is, they follow the laws of the universe by orbiting and so forth. (Or by obey do you think they have a consciousness of some sort?)
2) But to be worshipped, and not just mechanically obeyed, God created the angels, who have free will. The purpose of this free will is to worship, or perhaps love God, otherwise they would be just like planets- mechanical robots who do nothing but obey. So choice, and not just blind, or mechanical obedience, is important to God. He wants to be loved.
3) But a consequence of free will is that someone might chose to rebel, rather than worship, as Satan did. And convince others to do the same. The 1/3.
4) As a result of the rebellion’s disruption of perfection (defined as free will beings all choosing to worship, and love, God), God created an instantaneous fix, which we think of as existence and time. In this instantaneous fix is mankind, also with free will (but lesser abilities than angels) and sin.
5) The purpose of man is to fall, by way of sin. That’s why man is created. The fall of man allows God to show that he is not a tyrant by “making” people, or angels, worship him. Instead, he suffers a self-inflicted sacrifice, Jesus, to remove sin for man, and curry man’s love.
6) So the proposal to man is “I take the sin-hit for you through my son Jesus,” thereby showing my love for you, and in return, “you worship me,” showing your love for me.
7) Man understood this arrangement from creation till say about 500 BCE. Then they had to forget the agreement, because it was the only way for Jesus to die in a way that would show God’s love for man.
Is that anywhere near a correct interpretation?
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CU Medallion [58597]
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That's what I'm getting as well.
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Apr 14, 2023, 10:21 PM
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God created a reality/universe/existence, whatever you want to call it, that included Satan, evil, and sin - things he supposedly does not like - in order to love and be loved/worshipped.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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God created man in His image.
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Apr 15, 2023, 11:02 AM
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For that reason wanting to love and be loved is part of a normal person's nature. For reference I consider my children, the love between and among us, our desire to fellowship and be together, how much I love my grandchildren and my Christian brothers who are part of a divine family.
I think we go wrong when we attribute man's bad side to God but I know He is jealous and many other things about Him which we learn from scripture.
Sometimes my children did things which embarrassed me or things which I allowed but my greatest dislike for their behavior is when they did things which I believe brought them harm in one way or another. I believe at times they knew what was right but did that which is wrong anyway.
I believe my love for them was selfish. I wanted them to be safe, happy and productive in life.
I am persuaded that my passions for my children was God given. The real difference between God's relationship and me and my relationship with my children is that I had no idea they'd be so obstinate, self centered and inconsiderate to put me through their teen years.
I share your confusion about God tolerating man's sin but while I remember my passions for my 2 sons and 5 daughters I can also recall those nights when I worried. While God knows exactly where we are and what we're doing and where we are going to be and what we will be doing, He also knows how our lives will turn out and works diligently to fulfill the promise of Romans 8:28.
I also agree that man doesn't deserve breath, not the first nor the last. God's overwhelming love is almost incomprehensible that He would sacrifice His only Son to adopt a bunch of evil souls like us.
I understand and share you confusion. My goal in understanding why God created man came some 40-50 years ago as I began to see my life from God's perspective. Imo, God's tolerance for me is one of His great achievements.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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I can't fully comprehend or fully explain God, so naturally
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Apr 15, 2023, 1:05 PM
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there are things about him I can't know or understand. I don't think I'm confused, however. God either wants Satan and sin and disobedience to exist, or he does not.
If he does not, and they exist against his will, it's rreasonable to ask why he allows it. Some say it's because he has to in order to avheive his objective of a perfect reality. To say he "has" to clearly means he has no other choice, which clearly means his power is limited, as he has to do things a certain way. Something prevents him from doing it without Satan and sin and disobedience. Even if it's own self-imposed nature that makes it impossible, then he is still limited in the sense there is something he can't do.
Or, if he does want Satan and sin and disobedience, if those are things he does not have to allow, but freely chose to bring them into existence and allows them to persist even though they are not in any way neecssary ... then that's fine too, just acknowledge it.
It's one or the other; it can't be both. I'm not the least bit confused about that.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: I can't fully comprehend or fully explain God, so naturally
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Apr 15, 2023, 4:38 PM
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What you are getting at is two views of God. I've touched on this tangentially in some of my pron posts, but haven't addressed it as a dedicated topic yet. It would probably be a good one.
The historical Jewish perspective of God is the omnipotent, stern father. Loving, but stern as all hell. Man is the problem. The sinful one. And sin isn't really evil, it's disobedience. That's Judaism.
The historical Persian perspective is that God is all-good, but not all powerful. And again, man is the problem. Man's sin fuel's God's nemesis, an all-evil deity. And those two deities fight eternally. Good vs evil. Man tries to get close to God but man's own nature fuels evil. That's Zoroastrianism.
Two completely different ways of dealing with theodicy, or, the question of why a good god allows evil.
Jews would say God allows evil (Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."), and Zoroastrians would say God doesn't.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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I agree, and Christianity, as a whole, has never addressed
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Apr 16, 2023, 6:22 AM
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those two incompatible ideas head on, at least with any broad consensus, much less reconciled or resolved them. As a result, when you bring it up, the responses/answers you get are all over the place, depending on which church or version of Christianity the person was raised in or is currently most closely associated with. Most Christians I talk to, however, just as in this discussion, are fully, totally, 110% committed to the idea of an all-powerful God, and can't explain the existence of evil in any sensible, understandable fashion, and almost always wind up using circular reasoning and word games in an attempt to maintain both conflicting ideas at the same time, all while denying any conflict.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: I agree, and Christianity, as a whole, has never addressed
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Apr 16, 2023, 1:51 PM
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The interesting thing about Christianity is that it came in the wake of both these two earlier religions. And so converts to Christianity who were previously Jewish or Persian, brought their older ideas of what God was into the new religion.
Now, some will say that Jesus has existed since before creation, and I won't disagree with them since that's a matter of faith and personal interpretation. What I'm speaking of is the changing perception of God/Jesus over time. The OT God is a lot sterner than the NT God. There are no more mass killings of Amalekites or condemnation of nations to be plowed into rubble. The NT perception of God is the kinder, gentler version. The more "all good" version. And some believe this was the result of the merging of Jewish and Persian ideas.
So while each culture's understanding of God is pretty well resolved within that culture, when one blends the two ideas one gets paradoxes. A crude analogy would be Android works great on Android devices, and iOS works great on iOS devices, but trying to mix Android and iOS on a third device is bound to cause some problems in understanding.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: I agree, and Christianity, as a whole, has never addressed
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Apr 16, 2023, 1:55 PM
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It's going to be impossible to find responses in this long (and awesome) thread, so here's a helpful tag
Smiling Tiger®
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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Re: I agree, and Christianity, as a whole, has never addressed
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Apr 17, 2023, 7:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: I agree, and Christianity, as a whole, has never addressed ] |
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Early christians seemed to believe that god's final pouring out of wrath was coming soon, within their lifetimes, and that that would be it.
Of course that didn't happen, and now after 2000 years of evolution of thought and interpretation, you have christians sitting on the same pew in the same church that can't agree.
Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like Jews had it pretty much nailed down what they believe and it was universal across the religion. Of course they were not as wide spread as christianity.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: I agree, and Christianity, as a whole, has never addressed
Apr 17, 2023, 12:27 PM
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There were plenty of rifts, even in Judaism. Pharisees vs. Sadducees vs. Essenes, Zealots, and probably lesser factions as well.
What is significant, however, is that when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, the ONLY faction left to continue Judaism was the Pharisee faction. And they became the roots of what today is known as Rabbinic Judaism.
Dead men tell no tales, and when the Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots were wiped out, so were their beliefs and philosphies.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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Well...
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Apr 15, 2023, 12:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: I'm positive about everthing... ] |
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1. Physics is one of God's crowning achievement. Everything obeys physical law. No, even those of us as dumb as a rock don't float off the planet.
2. I believe the most important task of those who worship, love and respect God is to align with His will. The hard part for us is to know what God's will is after of course believing Him when He said 'This is my Son,' in reference to Jesus. So basically yes to Q:2.
3. I'd prefer to say a part of freewill is the ability to do what you want. It's like all the choices we made growing up. We knew what was right but she looked so good and was willing. Exaggeration, OK?
4. Yes, except that man sinning was known and a savior was promised to Eve. Memeber the discussion which included a promise to Eve that her seed would stomp the serpent's head yet her seed's heel would be bruised. Member it being the only time woman's seed was mentioned in the Bible? You got to see something special there.
5. I think creation solved an eternal problem and ensured it would never reoccur. We can discuss the ins and outs of man being predestined by God's knowledge of whose names were written down before the foundation of the world. That's a thread starter but I'd participate as long as you can tolerate me. ">">
6. Nix on the I'll die for you to make you love me. If we knew God like we know our fleshly father we'd love Him more just because of His power, patients, lovingkindness, grace, truthfulness...
He died for us because He loves us. While that is the basic reason we got to know Him I can testify. When King David said to seek ye first the Kingdom of God and He will give you the desire of your heart,'...When I did sought God's Kingdom first I was awakened to the fact that God is the desire of my heart. I did so because His love overwhelmed me. Who can resist selfless love?
7. Hebrews, and perhaps a handful of others, knew a savior was coming who would take away the sin of the world. A redeemer, if you choose. Good ole Solomon violated Deut 28 and God kept His promises of doing all that was promised. Not only did the Hebrew Kingdom fall but God and man did not communicate for over 400 years. During that time Israel fell apart spiritually as badly as they fell apart as a people. The 12 Tribes were left with only two tribes being able to claim which son they belonged to. You know all that better than me but you seem to have missed the spiritual repercussion of what Solomon did when he took heather wives and concubines who worshiped god's not named Yahweh.
If you've got several hundred years of preaching and teaching to do before a people who have no homeland and you have two options, one is to preach a spiritual redeemer and the other is a conquering messiah which one would you think the people want to hear about? Most Jews couldn't go to Jerusalem and worship so they build mini temples all across the Roman empire: Every dot is a synagogue...
You know more about the Roman road than anyone here. 11 of Jesus' apostles traveled those road, which previous to the diaspora didn't exist or not in the quality. There were places to preach the Gospel and Jews to preach to. To Jews diaspora was a punishment, to God is was a plan to spread the Gospel like wildfire.
OK, I got distracted. That happens to heretics.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: Well...
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Apr 15, 2023, 3:35 AM
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Thanks 88 that helps me understand where you are coming from a little better. I do have a follow up question. I'm still a little hazy on this...
>>>5. I think creation solved an eternal problem and ensured it would never reoccur.
I'm assuming that sin existed before man, because that's what Satan did to God before man was created. So creation, (including man, man's fall, and the death of Jesus) was the method for God to show his love (to both angels and man), and now that's he's shown it, it doesn't have to ever be reshown.
Is that what you mean when you refer to the "solution to the problem that will never reoccur?"
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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You posed the eternal question.
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Apr 15, 2023, 11:36 AM
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Yes, but my understanding is very limited on why God created this world and mankind. I hope I haven't presented any belief that I'm an authority on why God created man. I have a few pieces of this puzzle on the table but I do not believe I have the box it came in. I think I have assembled some of the pieces such that I can begin to see a bit of the picture.
I am not sure that sin existed before man. Before, during and after are terms relating to time which I believe neither exist nor governs in eternity. Time confounds me more than anyone. My understanding and theory depend upon sin having existed before man's sin. I suppose any theory regarding a relationship between temporal and eternal is going to be confused.
I believe an opposing theory presents the possibility that Lucifer was jealous of God's relationship with man and that caused him to sin. I got that from the movies, not from scripture and prayer. lol, I mean how could Hollywood ever present a false representative of Bible truths?
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All-In [29942]
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Re: You posed the eternal question.
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Apr 15, 2023, 5:00 PM
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>I hope I haven't presented any belief that I'm an authority on why God created man.
Sure. We're all just trying to understand what it's all about, right?
>My understanding and theory depend upon sin having existed before man's sin.
Got it.
> I suppose any theory regarding a relationship between temporal and eternal is going to be confused.
Lol. To say the least.
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CU Medallion [58597]
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I agree again with you both - we are all just doing the best
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Apr 16, 2023, 6:27 AM
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we can to understand, knowing that our ability to understand things like the relationship between temporal and eternal is probably very linited in the first place.
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Oculus Spirit [94262]
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3:35 AM?
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Apr 15, 2023, 11:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: Well... ] |
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My hero!
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All-In [29942]
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Re: 3:35 AM?
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Apr 15, 2023, 4:38 PM
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Architect hours ">
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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All-In [29942]
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CU Guru [1207]
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Re: If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 16, 2023, 2:34 PM
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James, the brother Jesus and one of the Apostles of The Lord certainly believed in Him and was
martyred for it according to tradition. He believed in Him enough to lay down his life for Him.
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CU Guru [1207]
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Re: If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 16, 2023, 2:57 PM
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Correction: James, the brother of Jesus was not one of the original 12 Apostles, but did believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Tradition tells us he was martyred for it. James was the half brother of Jesus as Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. They had the same mother, but Joseph was the father of James. Jesus Christ is Lord.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2: 8-11
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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Re: If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 16, 2023, 4:48 PM
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He didn't believe at first when Jesus started his ministry.
That's the mystery.
Guy spends a couple decades growing up with his brother who was born of a virgin but didn't believe it?
That's hard to believe.
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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Re: If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 16, 2023, 4:55 PM
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Btw, thanks Smiling Tiger® and ClemsonTiger1988® for hijacking my thread.
You guys should just have a running thread titled "Is god all powerful".
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All-In [29942]
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Re: If Jesus was born of a virgin
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Apr 16, 2023, 5:33 PM
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This has been one of the greatest discussion threads ever. So many great views and exchanges. It brings out my inner Greek:
Acts 17
20 "For you are bringing some strange notions to our ears, and we want to know what they mean.”
21 "Now all the Athenians and foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing more than hearing and articulating new ideas."
"Nothing more?" Geez Paul, that's what Heaven is to me. ">
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CU Medallion [58597]
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CU Medallion [58597]
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Or not ... or
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Apr 16, 2023, 7:16 PM
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both, according to some.
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All-In [29942]
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Re: Or not ... or
Apr 16, 2023, 9:25 PM
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Spoken like a true agnostic! ">
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