|
Replies: 127
| visibility 701
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 4:56 PM
|
|
God exists, just as you believe, or do you think they are lying?
Which one mostly fits your beliefs/understanding:
A. Atheists know there is a God, they just choose to reject him
B. Atheists don't know he exists, so no choice involved
C. Something else (please explain)
|
|
|
|
 |
Heisman Winner [119813]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 54529
Joined: 6/24/09
|
How miserable are you today?***
1
3
Aug 24, 2023, 5:00 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Can I ask what your problem is?
Aug 24, 2023, 5:45 PM
|
|
Why do you get so butthurt about religious questions on the RELIGION forum?
How miserable are you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [119813]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 54529
Joined: 6/24/09
|
Just curious why you always come across as miserable
1
Aug 24, 2023, 6:47 PM
|
|
In your life. Your replies are almost always acrimonious, name-calling fits of venom.
You always sound miserable, do you have any friends?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [119813]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 54529
Joined: 6/24/09
|
BTW, this is how I picture you
1
Aug 24, 2023, 6:54 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
I'm sure you do, you are very weird***
Aug 24, 2023, 7:01 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [119813]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 54529
Joined: 6/24/09
|
There you go…***
2
Aug 24, 2023, 7:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
"Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
2
Aug 24, 2023, 5:17 PM
|
|
and a half truth is still a lie.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 24, 2023, 5:45 PM
|
|
Ok, so, are you going to answer the question?
Do you think atheists know god and just deny him?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 7:52 AM
|
|
When someone says to me, “I don’t believe there is a God,” I have no reason to think they are lying about their belief. I don’t necessarily believe their statement is fully comprehensive of their belief either. Perhaps they have had some tragedy they feel was unjust and refuse to believe there can be a God of love that lets “bad things” happen to people. This person, then, may have a bigger sense of God but, in anger, speaks in terms of [disbelief].
It is also possible, that the same person may believe there is a God but rejects the implication of that [Christian teachings] because they simply refuse to relinquish their own desire to do what they want. After all, it is their life, and they can live it the way they wish. And, of course, they can. The battle here is not whether God exists, but whether they will accept God’s will (over their own) in their life.
This is a quick look, not comphrehensive by any means, at what may be shaping someone's belief in God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 8:41 AM
|
|
> Perhaps they have had some tragedy they feel was unjust and refuse to believe there can be a God of love that lets “bad things” happen to people. This person, then, may have a bigger sense of God but, in anger, speaks in terms of [disbelief].
I'm sure that happens, but that is not the case for me. There was no tragedy or incident at church that made me leave the faith. It was literally just a slow realization that I couldn't back up my beliefs, I had just believed what I was told.
> This is a quick look, not comphrehensive by any means, at what may be shaping someone's belief in God.
I understand that, and I appreciate your response.
> The battle here is not whether God exists, but whether they will accept God’s will (over their own) in their life.
See, I think this is what is getting smuggled in. Why isn't the battle over whether they will accept Allah's will or Shiva's? I could just replace "God" in your sentence with any other deity and make that claim.
It's the question that never gets answered for whatever reason, what, specifically, is the reason to take that claim as truth?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 10:26 AM
|
|
I qualified my statement with inference that [Christian teachings] are the basis for my belief and teaching about God. You can swap Jesus out for whomever you wish. But, Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."
You believe that or you don't. If you do, you don't replace Him with any other name - as Scripture also teaches that there is no other name by which we must be saved, except the name of Jesus.
To replace His name with another is to deny Him before men. Jesus also says, "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before My Father."
Jesus is either lying, or not. You get to decide. So do I.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 11:27 AM
|
|
Why do you consider the New Testament scripture?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 12:30 PM
|
|
Why shouldn't I? Was it provided in any manner different than the Old Testament?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 1:13 PM
|
|
Why consider the Old Testament? Why shouldn't we consider the Quran?
If we believe one just because it says it's true, why not others?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 4:03 PM
|
|
How old is the Quran? If you accept it then you should accept the New Testament Scripture.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 7:37 PM
|
|
I don't accept either, I'm asking why you accept any of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
2
Aug 26, 2023, 8:16 AM
|
|
Faith
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Exactly! So we do agree.***
1
Aug 26, 2023, 9:19 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Exactly! So we do agree.***
1
Aug 26, 2023, 10:19 AM
|
|
If you believe faith can have a foundation in real life experience, then, yes, we do.
Faith is not something that I [just] have... it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. But that gift, it was given through interaction with God. An experience that has had many moments since the first. Those that follow, they are reminders of the truth that is God, and is in God. And they strengthen.
If this is the kind of faith you believe in, then yes, we do agree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Exactly! So we do agree.***
1
Aug 26, 2023, 10:45 AM
|
|
Then, no, you are correct, we don't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth ] |
|
Well at least you have record of Jesus and Paul referring to the Old Testament as scripture.
On who's authority was the New Testament declared to be "scripture"?
There were a lot of early christian writings that claimed to be divine that didn't make it into the canon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17923]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8946
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
2
Aug 25, 2023, 4:10 PM
|
|
Jesus also said, "I did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill." When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I Am," He made a clear and definitive statement on who He [is]. He is the promised Messiah. His teachings are Holy. Paul stated His encounter with Jesus and how he was commissioned to teach the Gentiles. The Apostles, also, were sent out when Jesus said, "Go, and teach them, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
The words that give account, and teaches us, are recordings of what was commissioned by Christ. Good enough for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29905]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8856
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 12:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth ] |
|
I expand that idea. I don't limit God, if there is one, to just one religion. So in my world view, when Jesus says "No one comes to the Father but by me, that is exactly, and more importantly, precisely, what he means, in context.
That is, within Christianity, and the idea of a Father/Son/Holy Ghost, there is no way to come to God but through Jesus. But Christianity isn't the only way God shows himself. And other religions don't view God as a Father, or follow the concept of being saved. So yes, those are the rules of Christianity, but others find God outside of Christianity.
I've used this analogy before, but my younger brother and I used to argue over bedtime. He would say "Bedtime is 9:00. Dad told us to go to bed at 9:00." And I'd say "No, he told YOU to go to bed at 9:00, because you are younger than me. He told me to be in bed by 10:00." So was Dad lying to one of us, or was one of us deceived in what Dad told us, or did Dad just have different, personalized rules and messages for each of us?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
2
Aug 25, 2023, 1:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth ] |
|
> I qualified my statement with inference that [Christian teachings] are the basis for my belief and teaching about God.
That's totally fine, and at least it's honest.
> You can swap Jesus out for whomever you wish. But, Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."
See, to me, we have a set of books that CLAIM that Jesus said these things. You don't think things could have been changed, taken out of context or downright fabricated in the decades between Jesus dying and the Gospels being written? It seems extraordinarily likely that's the case to me, much more so than actual supernatural events happening.
> Jesus is either lying, or not. You get to decide. So do I.
Well, first, Jesus doesn't have to be lying. He may have never said the things in the gospels. That's definitely an option and, in fact, we know with good certainty that is the case for portions of the Bible (even your bible points them out).
You make it sound like Jesus is standing in front of us and asking us to make a decision. No, and I don't mean this in a derogatory manner but, we have religious people like you making these claims. i.e. it always comes from man, where is the proof other than what some men wrote down 2000 years ago.
If you want to say, the Bible says it and I believe, that's totally fine. It's when you say it as a fact that someone can just choose, that's totally ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 25, 2023, 3:05 PM
|
|
Interestingly, Jesus only makes statements like these in the gospel of John which was one of the last books of the New Testament to be penned.
In the earliest gospel of Mark, Jesus is very secretive and tells his disciples not to tell anyone about him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: "Mostly fits my belief" is still a half-truth
1
Aug 26, 2023, 7:42 AM
|
|
Watch out, here come the ad hominems
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3080]
TigerPulse: 58%
Posts: 3572
Joined: 11/24/17
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 5:45 PM
|
|
A. I think people who claim God doesn't exists deep down know he does. They simply choose to have no regard for him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 5:48 PM
|
|
Thank you.
That blows my mind, but I appreciate the honesty.
Just to clarify, you think that I really do know that I am choosing to go to hell and are doing it anyway? Like, I actually think I will spend an eternity in hellfire and torment, and I'm actively choosing that?
To me, that would be like me walking up to the stove and choosing to place my hand on it. It makes zero sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3080]
TigerPulse: 58%
Posts: 3572
Joined: 11/24/17
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 5:57 PM
|
|
I suspect that like most other people, you give very little thought to your death or eternity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 5:59 PM
|
|
Respectfully, you'd be wrong. I'd bet I think about it more than you do.
I do have a question though, how specifically does god present in your mind. Like, what am I looking for here? A voice? A vision? What exactly does it look like to KNOW he is there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3080]
TigerPulse: 58%
Posts: 3572
Joined: 11/24/17
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 6:05 PM
|
|
Fair enough.
The best way I can describe it is an awareness. When people say God or the Spirit speaks to them, I think this is what they are talking about. Not an audible voice or thunder clapping above, but a simple awareness that we really can't explain any better than that. That probably doesn't satisfy your curiosity and isn't verifiable proof. But it is what it is. I can (and unfortunately do) disobey God at times. What I cannot do, is not believe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3080]
TigerPulse: 58%
Posts: 3572
Joined: 11/24/17
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 6:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
So why do you spend time thinking about death or eternity? If there's no God, no supernatural or afterlife, why think about it at all? From your perspective, isn't it just a simple matter of the lights going out and that's it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 6:47 PM
|
|
> So why do you spend time thinking about death or eternity? If there's no God, no supernatural or afterlife, why think about it at all? From your perspective, isn't it just a simple matter of the lights going out and that's it?
I'm honestly having a hard time fathoming your question. What do you mean, why would I think about the human condition?
If I thought this was just part one and the real life begins after death, I wouldn't think too much about it. Knowing this is all we have makes it precious and makes me want to soak it up while I can.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3080]
TigerPulse: 58%
Posts: 3572
Joined: 11/24/17
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 26, 2023, 5:36 AM
|
|
I asked that question because "I think about it more than you" suggests you think about it a lot. We all ponder death. I'm curious why someone with no belief in the supernatural would think so much about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 26, 2023, 7:41 AM
|
|
Again, this question makes no sense to me. Of course, someone who thinks this is it would ponder life/death more than someone who thinks this is just a blip in eternity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3227]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4096
Joined: 6/24/23
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24488]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13976
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
3
Aug 24, 2023, 5:59 PM
|
|
I try to take what people say at face value. Emotional components make up everyone's beliefs, and those have to be taken into account when assessing what someone says they believe. For instance, the "i was an evangelical christian and a sunday school teacher and all my family are christians and I believed it all until I read the bible" stories on this board come off as completely fake, given some of the things later said. When one sees that, everything that follows as to be assessed. A lot of whistling past the graveyard seems to be going on.
But basically, no, I don't doubt a person's claim of atheism.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 8:17 PM
|
|
"i was an evangelical christian and a sunday school teacher and all my family are christians and I believed it all until I read the bible"
CUintulsa®, I assume you are referring to me here because that is exactly my story, except for "I believed it all"...
I never really believed it. Always seemed like believing in Santa Claus to me. And I would notice little inconsistencies amongst christianity, a lot of them I've pointed out here. You can't BS a BSer.
I can honestly say I gave it a shot for about 5-6 years after I was married. The more I got involved, the more I read the Bible, the more I discovered inconsistencies in the text, and with the way the christian church operates.
There is a huge difference between the early christian church, and the modern american church. I would say they hardy resemble one another, other than the fact they both claim Jesus is the son of god.
I think the issues that I've mentioned with the Bible are overlooked, swept under the rug, and sometimes just downright lied about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24488]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13976
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 10:01 PM
|
|
I was not referring to just you, was pulling remnants of what I remembered being said by more than one person. Atheists seem to want to be Bart Ehrman now, and as it turns out even he wasnt that Bart Ehrman. However:
> I never really believed it. Always seemed like believing in Santa Claus to me. And I would notice little inconsistencies amongst christianity, a lot of them I've pointed out here. You can't BS a BSer.
Okay, that I can buy. You got married, went to church, didnt believe it. Got it. No problem. That is not how some stories have been presented, and they were seemingly not real. But yes, that is believable,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 25, 2023, 7:19 AM
|
|
I think maybe you just don't want to believe someone could be exposed that much to christianity and come away a non believer.
There are a lot of stories just like mine, and I believe most believers do not care to look into the stuff I'm talking about, they are more interested in the social aspect of religion than actually seeking truth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24488]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13976
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 25, 2023, 4:40 PM
|
|
I didn't, and don't, believe the stories as presented here. They sounded fake, didn't square with other things said. The one you clarified above, I believe.
We already know you think you are enlightened, that anyone not agreeing with you is not seeking truth. We got it long ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 25, 2023, 6:09 PM
|
|
You're no match for me, I know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24488]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13976
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
Aug 25, 2023, 6:56 PM
|
|
Probably not. Caught you presenting a fake story, made you clean it up. But you're probably right nevertheless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 6:22 PM
|
|
I thought that's what atheist meant - you don't believe in God.
Why do you ask?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 6:44 PM
|
|
> I thought that's what atheist meant - you don't believe in God.
Atheist does mean that. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if you (if you are a theist) think that atheist actually do know God exists, and are just lying about it.
> Why do you ask?
I am curious to know your thought process.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 7:11 PM
|
|
Well, they'd have to be lying if they believe in God.
I guess I don't understand why someone would lie about that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 7:13 PM
|
|
> I guess I don't understand why someone would lie about that.
Exactly.
So doesn't this contradict your belief system?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 7:16 PM
|
|
Why would that contradict my belief system? I believe atheists don't believe in God.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 7:21 PM
|
|
> Why would that contradict my belief system? I believe atheists don't believe in God.
Doesn't the Bible say that's not the case?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 7:33 PM
|
|
I don't think so, but rejection is the epitomy of unbelief.
As in, you reject God because you don't believe in God. How could you not reject God if you don't believe in God?
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 7:35 PM
|
|
I don't believe in mermaids, so I reject that mermaids exist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 7:40 PM
|
|
Are you purposefully beating around the bush?
The bible says that everyone knows God exists, does it not?
How do you square that with believing an atheist when he says he doesn't know God exists?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 7:51 PM
|
|
Where is that in the Bible?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 7:53 PM
|
|
I thought that was referred to as heathen
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 8:20 PM
|
|
Yeah, it's hard to understand why someone is a heathen.
But, the real question is, why do the heathen rage?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 9:04 PM
|
|
Are you defining a heathen as someone who believes in god but chooses to deny him?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 9:13 PM
|
|
Someone who does not allow God as a conscious concept. A person who believes in God and at the same time rejects God is a fool, not a heathen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 24, 2023, 9:37 PM
|
|
> A person who believes in God and at the same time rejects God is a fool
I would agree with that statement. I don't think anyone of sound mind would take this position.
I'm asking a very specific question though: Do you believe there are atheists who truly do not KNOW god exist, not deny as a concept or anything like that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 10:18 PM
|
|
All the atheists that I am close with are moving towards a belief in God. One of my best buds, was an atheist. He had a misconception of Christians. I think it came from "Christians". Anyway, I told him the story of Zacchaeus. If it were all imaginary, and heaven and hell were just a bunch of bullschyatt, Christ would still my savior and he would have still brought me to repentance.
That being said, it is very real and The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 10:23 PM
|
|
Respectfully, is there a reason you won’t answer the question directly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 24, 2023, 11:03 PM
|
|
Perhaps you should expound upon what you mean by 'Know God exists', so that I may better address the question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 25, 2023, 6:41 AM
|
|
It’s not a trick question. I’m talking about the same way you and I know our parents exists. How do we know that? We have direct hard evidence, zero faith required.
I do not have anything of the sort for god and yet you are telling me it’s a choice not to believe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24488]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13976
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
3
Aug 24, 2023, 10:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20
This clearly does not say all people believe in God. It does clearly say no one has an excuse for not seeing Him.
Satan is called a deceiver many times, such as 'Lucifer', an angel of light, appearing to be truth but with intent to deceive. In his first appearance he accurately quotes God in a way to deceive. You have done so again here, just now.
I would take a hard look in the mirror.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 25, 2023, 7:23 AM
|
|
That was written by someone in the first century who didn't know anything existed outside the mediterranean world, where everything was attributed to someone's version of god because nobody knew any better.
Increase in knowledge and technology has now given us a better understanding of how our world works. The need to explain it by appealing to some ancient deity has passed.
It's time you examine your beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24488]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13976
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
Aug 25, 2023, 6:51 PM
|
|
16 appealed to the verse, not me. Stay on track here, bd. You can do it. Would be the first time, but you can do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58489]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46372
Joined: 4/23/00
|
As a former atheist, I believed that God did not exist.***
3
Aug 24, 2023, 7:40 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: As a former atheist, I believed that God did not exist.***
1
Aug 24, 2023, 8:05 PM
|
|
Would you define that as a choice?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58489]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46372
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: As a former atheist, I believed that God did not exist.***
2
Aug 24, 2023, 8:30 PM
|
|
Definitely - it was a decision I made.
It may be more accurate to say it was a conclusion I reached.
Message was edited by: Smiling Tiger®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: As a former atheist, I believed that God did not exist.***
1
Aug 24, 2023, 9:02 PM
|
|
To clarify, you knew god existed the whole time but chose not to follow him?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: As a former atheist, I believed that God did not exist.***
3
Aug 24, 2023, 9:16 PM
|
|
No, he said that he did not believe in God, now he does. Correct me if I'm wrong Smiling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58489]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46372
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Pretty much.
4
Aug 24, 2023, 9:43 PM
|
|
I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. By the time I was in my early 20s I had come to the conclusion there was no God. By my 30s I had embraced a more liberal form of Christianity that was not dependent upon an interpretation of the bible as inerrant, literal truth, but rather a mixture of universal, spiritual truths, honest attempts to explain our existence through myth and story telling, and actual historical accounts, all shaped by the circumstances, beliefs, and limitations in the world at the time it was written, and eventually edited and put together into the bible we have today.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Pretty much.
1
Aug 24, 2023, 9:45 PM
|
|
What made you change your mind?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58489]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46372
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: Pretty much.
4
Aug 24, 2023, 11:40 PM
|
|
I became an atheist because I saw a lot of hypocrisy in the church, and in organized religion in general, as well as things in the bible that didn't add up or make sense to me. All of that made me very angry and my response was to rebel and reject. Over the next few years, I did a lot of reading about different religions and philosophy, atheism, different views of Christianity, the bible, religion and myth, some "new age" stuff, Joseph Campbell, C.S. Lewis, Ayn Rand, Carlos Casteneda, etc.. Perhaps more importantly, I opened my mind and heart to all possibilities. As a result of all of that, the thing that made the most sense to me, and just felt right, was that there was a creator, or source, of this universe and this reality, and it is all a product of eternal, unconditional love. I don't pretend to have all of the answers for everything, and I don't think anybody does, but I have faith in that much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: Pretty much.
2
Aug 24, 2023, 11:59 PM
|
|
I like it. Forget steps. It sounds like beautiful jazz, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh". It's beautiful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Pretty much.
3
Aug 25, 2023, 7:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: Pretty much. ] |
|
Sounds reasonable enough, thanks for sharing
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24229]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12327
Joined: 9/1/14
|
Re: Pretty much.
1
Aug 26, 2023, 7:23 AM
[ in reply to Pretty much. ] |
|
Smiling, I owe you one from another thread. We were talking about people from other cultures, that have never heard of Jesus, being saved. I've been working a lot lately, and most of my Tigernet comments have been through my phone, so those are usually short thumby types.
I grew up in the church. My father was always a deacon when I was growing up and ultimately became a pastor. Thankfully, dad wasn't a pastor when I was a kid. I was an adult when he became a pastor. My uncle was also a pastor, and his kids grew up as pastor's kids. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Not because of their dad (he's a great man) but because of the devils that exist in church buildings. I saw how hard it was for them to be a normal teenagers who had to live in a glass house.
Anyway, fast forward to my late teens/early twenties. I was a bit of a hellion (off the effing chain is what I had become). I had also moved into eastern philosophy/religion. This, by the way, is something that still interests me. I had moved very far away from my upbringing.
I was at my uncle's house (different uncle) one evening, and I went for a walk in his field. I was thinking about my life and thinking about who I was and the type of person I had become. I didn't really like what I was seeing. And then something supernatural (for lack of a better term) happened. I started feeling this draw to something that was undefinable. I felt amazing love and warmth. A clearing and opening of my eyes (not my physical eyes), but the entire way I was looking at the world changed in a moment. This happened over 20 years ago and it wasn't something that was short lived.
After this moment, I started reading the Bible. In particular, I was reading the gospels. What happened at that moment seemed to match up with what I read. John 14:20 is what happened. The draw and the love I felt was the Holy Spirit, the clearing of sight was Christ, and the undefinable force I was being drawn to was God (what we refer to as the Father). The best way I can describe it was that it was a rebirth - a spiritual birth.
I think that people who come from different cultures, who have never heard of Jesus, can experience what I experienced. They may not recognize it the way I did, but I believe it comes through Christ by a drawing of the Holy Spirit. Those people just may not have the understanding to call it that at the moment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58489]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46372
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: No, what makes you think that?***
1
Aug 24, 2023, 9:34 PM
|
|
I'm asking.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58489]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46372
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Re: No, what makes you think that?***
1
Aug 24, 2023, 9:44 PM
|
|
And my answer was "no".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22562]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7200
Joined: 8/31/03
|
I think many atheists...
2
Aug 25, 2023, 2:33 PM
|
|
....are continually trying to convince themselves there is no God. They do this because they desperately WANT to believe there is no God.
It's not that they are open and have looked at the evidence and decided there is no God.
It's not that they would prefer there is no God so they look at the evidence beginning with the internal bias that they would prefer there is no God.
It is often the case that they have decided they want to believe God does not exist.
Because if God exists and they believe he exists it might affect the way they live their lives. And, they want to live their lives without God impacting it.
"I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: I think many atheists...
2
Aug 25, 2023, 2:42 PM
|
|
> ....are continually trying to convince themselves there is no God. They do this because they desperately WANT to believe there is no God.
> It's not that they are open and have looked at the evidence and decided there is no God.
Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong on that one.
> It's not that they would prefer there is no God so they look at the evidence beginning with the internal bias that they would prefer there is no God.
There is a point I'm trying very hard to make that is just not coming across for some reason. Let me try to make an example.
Love him or hate him, we both agree (and can prove) that Trump exists. There is no question on either side.
Now, for Jesus/God, why isn't it JUST AS OBVIOUS that he exists. If that were the case, then I'd agree with pretty much everything you are saying and that it comes down to me "wanting to be my own captain" or "not wanting there to be a god".
No, the only reason I don't believe is that he doesn't appear to exist. That's it. There is no ulterior motive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I think many atheists...
2
Aug 25, 2023, 3:01 PM
|
|
" ....are continually trying to convince themselves there is no God. They do this because they desperately WANT to believe there is no God.
> It's not that they are open and have looked at the evidence and decided there is no God.
Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong on that one."
I think you both may be going to the extreme in totally different directions on this one.
Obviously the christian would like his statement to be true, that NOBODY looks into the evidence and comes away convinced there is no god. Clearly that is hogwash.
However I will say that personally, while the evidence to me points away from at least the christian version of god, I would rather not live up to christian standards, at least not the modern day evangelical standards that we are used to.
I don't want to go to church on sunday, it's boring. I'd rather sleep in and watch NFL countdown or play some golf.
I don't want to not go to the bar and have a little too much to drink with my buddies.
And I definitely don't want to feel guilty every time I lust after a nice set of boobies.
So bretfsu® is at least partially correct on this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: I think many atheists...
2
Aug 25, 2023, 3:07 PM
|
|
Well no, whether one wants something to be true is completely independent of whether it is.
The claim was atheists convince themselves there is no God BECAUSE they don't want to believe. That is certainly not the case for me, and your conclusion doesn't follow from that.
You can not want something to be true and simultaneously not believe it for other reasons. There is no conflict there at all. Sure, I don't WANT hell to be real, but that has no effect on whether it is, I only don't believe it because there isn't convincing evidence for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22562]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7200
Joined: 8/31/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Notice I said "many" atheists...
1
Aug 25, 2023, 4:13 PM
|
|
Fair enough, I'm asking if you think it's even possible for an atheist to not know God exists, because I think that contradicts what the bible claims.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22562]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7200
Joined: 8/31/03
|
Two comments.
1
Aug 25, 2023, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think many atheists... ] |
|
Are you saying you don't believe Jesus was a human being who lived about 2000 years ago? So you believe Julius Caesar lived, or Alexander the Great? (You may claim he is not God, but did you say he never existed?)
You believe the universe and everything in it came into existence without the aid of an intelligence directing it. You can believe that, but you cannot prove it. It takes faith to believe what you believe.
My belief that the universe and all that is in it came about by the effort of a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal and intelligent being. I cannot prove that to the point of certainty. It takes faith.
The question is, which explanation is more reasonable? Which takes less faith to believe?
Note: My question is not about Jesus being God in human form. My question is which explanation of the existence of the universe is more probable, Atheism or Theism?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Two comments.
2
Aug 25, 2023, 4:11 PM
|
|
> Are you saying you don't believe Jesus was a human being who lived about 2000 years ago?
Not at all, I think he was a real person. I just don't think there is any convincing evidence for the supernatural claims.
> So you believe Julius Caesar lived, or Alexander the Great? (You may claim he is not God, but did you say he never existed?)
Sure, but I don't believe for a second that everything we "know" about them is accurate. Also, AFAIK, there aren't any fantastic claims I have to believe about them. Furthermore, even if I'm wrong about them, I don't get sent to hell over it.
> You believe the universe and everything in it came into existence without the aid of an intelligence directing it. You can believe that, but you cannot prove it. It takes faith to believe what you believe.
You can keep telling me what I believe, or you can ask. I am agnostic to how the universe came to be, precisely because we can't prove it, as you said. Now, my best guess would be that there was no intelligence involved. Why? Two reasons:
1. I have seen zero convincing evidence for anything supernatural, so no need to invoke it here
2. Invoking God here just brings up more questions, not answers. Where did He come from? Why wouldn't he require a begin inning just as the universe supposedly does? etc.. etc..
> My belief that the universe and all that is in it came about by the effort of a spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal and intelligent being. I cannot prove that to the point of certainty. It takes faith.
That's totally fine. I completely understand if you already believed in god that you would extend that to the creation of the universe. That's logical.
> The question is, which explanation is more reasonable? Which takes less faith to believe?
Literally my position, I don't have faith at all. If I don't know how something works, I just say I don't know, I don't have faith it what it might be, those are called guesses.
> Note: My question is not about Jesus being God in human form. My question is which explanation of the existence of the universe is more probable, Atheism or Theism?
I don't know if that question is answerable but, for my best guess, I would say atheism because again, I've seen no evidence for anything supernatural, but I've seen abundant evidence that natural processes explain extremely complex things that we see.
Sure, I agree, there could be a creator at the beginning, that's on the table, I just haven't seen any convincing evidence so why would I default to that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29905]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8856
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Two comments.
Aug 25, 2023, 7:37 PM
|
|
Pardon me for butting in but the conversation is so good I can’t help myself.
I think what one ultimately gets down to is the definition of god, which is tough to pin down.
What I mean is, if god were like, magnetism, say, perhaps some skeptics would find him more believable. You’d have gravity, and the two nuclear forces, and god.
But, if one defines god as an intelligence, or a sentience, that requires a different threshold of belief.
And, if one takes the definition to a finer point, and says “he’s an old man with a beard who can turn into a cloud and loves me” that takes yet another level of belief. So the definition of god matters in one’s belief of him.
On a related note, Einstein once famously asked if god was bound by his own rules. That is, if one can snap his fingers to make light magically appear, why go through the bother of suns and rotating planets and all the ‘order’ we seem to see amid the chaos of the universe.
That ties into if god is omnipotent, why are there apparently rules to the universe? Who made the rules, and if it was god, why, if he can override them with snap of his fingers? What’s the point of them? Which gets back around to the details of the definition of god.
Belief is as personal a thing as can be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Two comments.
2
Aug 25, 2023, 7:41 PM
|
|
> Belief is as personal a thing as can be.
I agree, but I also think there is such as thing as an unfounded belief. I have them, you have them, we all do. Paradoxically, we don't know what they are, otherwise we wouldn't believe them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29905]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8856
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Two comments.
Aug 25, 2023, 10:14 PM
|
|
Agreed. Why one believes something is as fascinating as what they believe. A friend’s wife is the head of a college anthropology department, and at a recent dinner we started talking about her latest project/paper.
She has been surveying people on a new health treatment similar to sound therapy. But her interest isn’t in whether or not it works medically. Her interest is why the people who use it THINK it works, whether it actually does or not. An interesting angle.
I’m not sure people even have a choice in what they believe. One either believes what is presented or revealed to them, or they don’t. It’s like an emotion. One can deal with the emotion once it happens, but one can’t control what makes them angry, or sad, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: Two comments.
2
Aug 26, 2023, 7:45 AM
|
|
> I’m not sure people even have a choice in what they believe. One either believes what is presented or revealed to them, or they don’t. It’s like an emotion. One can deal with the emotion once it happens, but one can’t control what makes them angry, or sad, etc
Agreed, and I think this is what it comes down to. I find it fascinating when people say "all you have to do is believe" as if that's something you can just do.
Like, right here, right now, choose to actually believe the earth is flat and is governed by leprechauns. I don't believe you for a second if you say you could "just believe" that. Same for religion, people only believe what they are convinced by, not what they choose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22562]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7200
Joined: 8/31/03
|
How does the natural process explain...
1
Aug 26, 2023, 5:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Two comments. ] |
|
... that something came from nothing?
You are talking about how things have changed once they are here. But, you haven't addressed how they got here in the first place.
How did time, space, matter, energy and force get here to begin with?
You, if I understand you correctly you are agnostic about that. You are willing to say, "I don't know."
But, you also say that an intelligent being didn't cause it.
So, by faith, you rule out one possible explanation. "The universe got here, but it didn't get here under the direction of a supernatural cause. I don't know what the natural cause was, but it had to be something natural."
That's fine. I understand that.
But, don't claim it takes no faith to believe what you believe. You have faith; I have faith. We just disagree on which explanation is more reasonable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: How does the natural process explain...
2
Aug 26, 2023, 6:40 PM
|
|
> You are talking about how things have changed once they are here. But, you haven't addressed how they got here in the first place.
I have addressed that, I said I don't know.
> How did time, space, matter, energy and force get here to begin with?
Again, no idea, neither do you, or rather, you can't "prove" it one way or the other either.
> You, if I understand you correctly you are agnostic about that. You are willing to say, "I don't know."
Yes, precisely
> But, you also say that an intelligent being didn't cause it.
No, I don't say that. "I don't know" means "I don't know". Now, I have no reason to think that a supernatural entity exists, in any context, so unless shown otherwise, I see no reason to think there is.
That is entirely different than asserting that god didn't create it though.
> So, by faith, you rule out one possible explanation. "The universe got here, but it didn't get here under the direction of a supernatural cause. I don't know what the natural cause was, but it had to be something natural."
> That's fine. I understand that.
No, you clearly don't understand it. That's putting words in my mouth. That is not position.
> But, don't claim it takes no faith to believe what you believe. You have faith; I have faith. We just disagree on which explanation is more reasonable.
Again, if you are going to assert what I believe, then please show exactly where I'm using faith. "I don't know" is not faith.
> We just disagree on which explanation is more reasonable.
Yes, agreed; however, my position is that we have abundant hard evidence for natural processes and zero hard evidence for anything supernatural, so I don't see how the supernatural explanation gets the nod.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22562]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7200
Joined: 8/31/03
|
So, you are an agnostic, not an atheist.
4
Aug 26, 2023, 8:25 PM
|
|
You don't know whether God exists or not. You think it is more likely there is no God, but you are open to the possibility there might be a God.
Thanks for the discussion. It has been very helpful to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: So, you are an agnostic, not an atheist.
1
Aug 26, 2023, 10:42 PM
|
|
No problem
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3217]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1205
Joined: 5/8/03
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 28, 2023, 1:49 PM
|
|
I think atheist believe there is no God and I'm okay with that. I can't prove there is one, but I don't demean their beliefs unlike what I see from most atheists.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1381]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 2094
Joined: 4/23/15
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Aug 29, 2023, 10:23 PM
|
|
Respectfully I would say that Christians demean people that don’t agree with their beliefs A LOT. Good on you if you don’t, but there’s a lotta Christians that do. Not to mention making/ pushing laws in the name of Christianity.
The using the Bible as a weapon to beat people over the head or a shield for the bigotry and hate is what turns many off of Christianity
I don’t think atheists/agnostics should demean relies folks. I do think think that asking questions and even having discussions about religion can be offensive to some. For example asking for evidence, and questioning the usual answers as non evidence (coz it’s not)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93787]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95485
Joined: 12/25/09
|
When someone ask me a question I feel blessed to be able...
1
Aug 29, 2023, 11:59 PM
|
|
to explain what I believe, why I believe it and where in God's Word to read it.
You're right, a lot of Christians look down upon others but we're all sinners, some saved by grace and some not yet saved by grace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1381]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 2094
Joined: 4/23/15
|
Re: When someone ask me a question I feel blessed to be able...
2
Aug 30, 2023, 12:57 AM
|
|
You have been relatively civil in the discussion as far as I’ve seen (I haven’t seen every thread). I wasn’t referring to you. I think you believe what you believe.
Back to the point of this thread. I don’t think everyone knows god/JC or any ghost. I do not think religion is inherent. It’s learned through teaching, scriptures and spoken word. I don’t think that not believing such teachings is willful disobedience. I think we as humans want to make sense of this all, like back in the day a natural disaster would be an angry good, or bad crops. Humans have need to find explanation vs happenstance. Now we have evolved to know that disasters happen not from an angry god (except for the Pat Robertson type trash people)
I think we all want answers, and some except what they were told and others need more evidence. Simple as that
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93787]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95485
Joined: 12/25/09
|
You're well aware.
1
Aug 31, 2023, 4:13 AM
|
|
I did indeed hear about God, Christ and the plan of salvation growing up but I was steadfast in holding to my desire to conduct myself and direct my life according to what I wanted, wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. I was my own god. I believed myself to me able to direct myself well enough to be happy.
I was going about doing exactly what I wanted, getting what I wanted and living a virtuous life according to the standards which I set for myself. I had walked myself through a funnel into a dark corridor. As life when on I realized there were no exits other than the darkness in front of me and if I ever was to see light again I would have to try and turn myself around and head back where I came from. I really felt that way. Looking back I can accurately say life oppressed my very soul.
Yet I continued to walk down this dark hall, step after step with that small, still voice just behind me. I quickened my step to get away from it but the distance between me and that voice never changed. It kept gently calling my name, "Eddie...Eddie...Eddie...in regular intervals with no volume change.
Finally, I felt the gentle touch of a hand upon my shoulder. I could feel the power even though it was such a tender touch with neither finger nor thumb putting pressure upon my flesh. After some six to eight months of my dark walk I relented and as I turned said 'What?'
God, The Almighty said to me, "I've been trying to get your attention." I fell to my knees right then and there and asked Jesus to save me by simply saying, 'I need your help, I will do whatever you want.'
He did, I didn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93787]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95485
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Aug 31, 2023, 4:19 AM
|
|
A. IDK
B. IDK
C. What I know:
Many lost people (the dead) think they are saved. Many saved people (the living) live like they are dead. Life and death of the flesh reveals much about life and death in spirit.
"Why?" would be a good question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6498]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10132
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 3, 2023, 12:08 AM
|
|
I think Atheists if completely honest would admit that deep down, they are truly agnostic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
Oct 5, 2023, 9:43 AM
|
|
Sigh. Again, atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.
Most agnostics ARE atheists.
Atheism does not mean that you assert there is no god, it means that you don't believe there is one.
You can simultaneously think there is no way to know if there is a god and not believe in a god at the same time.
I personally think being a hard atheist, i.e. asserting there is no god is a non-tenable position. It's the same for anything you can't falsify, though. I can not, for example, prove that fairies don't exist or that there isn't an alien civilization right behind the sun where we can't see them.
There isn't anything special about the Christian religion in this sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [702]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 795
Joined: 10/29/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 23, 2023, 8:40 PM
|
|
I think Atheists, at least most of them that you hear about or see, have a God complex, where they have an issue with submission to anything. The thought that they aren't the ultimate power in everything just can't be to them. It's why I totally respect Agnositics, but generally not Atheists. There's at least humility in saying "I don't know if there is or isnt." But there is none in saying I know there isn't a God.
The fact that an atheist has any vested interest at all in converting anyone at all is proof. For what? The only logical reason an Atheist would have such a desire to debate and argue with a believer is because they want you to acknowledge they're right. That's hubris.
Hope that helps. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Sep 23, 2023, 10:16 PM
|
|
Well, the term "atheist" simply means a lack of belief in deities. Yes, there are certainly hard atheist that assert there is no god, but I agree that is an untenable position because you can't prove a negative.
> at least most of them that you hear about or see, have a God complex, where they have an issue with submission to anything. The thought that they aren't the ultimate power in everything just can't be to them.
As for this, I think that's just a trope among christians. Most people don't believe because there is no good reason to, not because they have a God complex, that's ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Sep 24, 2023, 7:35 AM
|
|
Nice to see you back. I thought you died and went to hell. 
When I was growing up a Christian just the thought of atheism was enough to make me shudder. You are taught these people have something seriously wrong with them and are possessed by the devil.
This is why I believe fundamental religion is bad for the world and yes Dahamp2003 I guess you could call me a crusader against it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [702]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 795
Joined: 10/29/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 24, 2023, 9:17 AM
|
|
Well that's a wild outlook on people, and I don't think it's what most people share. I also think "I'm making the world a better place by pissing off believers" is sorta weird too. Sounds like a cop-out to do what you want while claiming it's for the greater good. You honestly think the world is a worse place with Christianity in it than without? I guess we would have to agree to disagree there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 26, 2023, 4:19 PM
|
|
"Well that's a wild outlook on people, and I don't think it's what most people share."
Some would argue it's exactly what the bible teaches. The book of Romans says that it's god himself that hardens hearts. So which is it? Does satan lead people away from the truth or is it god doing it?
"You honestly think the world is a worse place with Christianity in it than without? I guess we would have to agree to disagree there."
Like a lot of other people throughout history, Jesus had a great message. He was clearly fed up with the rich and elite Jews taking advantage of and forgetting about the poor. The same kind of thing goes on in society today and has gone on since.
Love you neighbor as yourself is great for the world, but the fundamental religious belief system that most christians are brought up in is not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [702]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 795
Joined: 10/29/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 24, 2023, 9:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
I know that's the technical definition of it, but in reality that's not how it works. A quiet atheist that just simply said "I don't believe in God" would fit that definition. Someone that KNOWS God doesn't exist and has to tell you how they KNOW (when there's just as much proof he does as doesnt) doesn't fit that definition.
That's why I respect agnostics more. They're more humble and understand that although I can't prove he does, they can't either, so they don't know.
The fundamental difference between a believer and an atheist is that the believer identifies as a believer, while the atheist identifies as knowing it. It's still a belief. There is no absence of belief. That's agnosticism.
Both are beliefs that are unprovable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Sep 24, 2023, 10:20 AM
|
|
Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. I myself am an agnostic atheist.
I lack a belief in a deity (hence atheist) but I don't think you can know for sure (hence agnostic). While I don't think a deity exists (because of the severe lack of evidence) I wouldn't make that claim that a deity doesn't 100% exist.
Please note that this is the exact same position one must hold for the tooth fairy or Santa Claus. I "know" they don't exist, but I can't prove they don't. That doesn't make it reasonable to believe in either of those things though now, does it?
> Both are beliefs that are unprovable.
Great point. So, with that said, why do you believe in a deity, then?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93787]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95485
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I've met God, met with God and conversed with Him for...
1
Sep 25, 2023, 8:50 AM
|
|
over 50 years.
I testify here and/or under oath before any court, judge and jury. I've praised Him and argued with Him. I've loved Him and His way and at times I've hated His way. We've been through thick and thin and never once has He abandoned me nor refused to do what was best for me by giving me His will.
There is no doubt in my heart that He won't continue to show His lovingkindness to me in every fashion and without measure. Because His lovingkindness is better than life and therefore I praise Him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [702]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 795
Joined: 10/29/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 25, 2023, 4:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
That's redundant, simply because you want to identify as an atheist. That definition is agnostic. Is it possible that you could ever see some sort of evidence that would make you believe in a deity? If so, you're agnostic. If not, you're a closed minded not it all atheist. I mean I don't believe in Santa Clause (at least the one that visits my house because I put the gifts out myself. If you claimed he came to yours I'd at least be open to having my mind changed, as ridiculous as that may sound to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 25, 2023, 4:58 PM
|
|
> That's redundant, simply because you want to identify as an atheist. That definition is agnostic.
No, it isn't.
Atheism: Lack of belief in a deity
Agnosticism: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable.
How is agnostic atheism redundant? I think it's just a surprise to you that most agnostics are also atheist. I've found that most religious people don't seem to know this.
> Is it possible that you could ever see some sort of evidence that would make you believe in a deity?
Yes of course. This is literally the only reason I don't believe. The reality is, if there really is a god and particularly one that wants a personal relationship, then he could unequivocally show me that he existed.
He has not. So either he doesn't exist or simply doesn't want me to know that he does.
> If so, you're agnostic. If not, you're a closed minded not it all atheist.
Again, no. That's not what those mean. Atheism is not closed-minded, any more than not believing in Bigfoot is closed-minded. If I saw convincing evidence for either, I'd change my mind immediately.
> If you claimed he came to yours I'd at least be open to having my mind changed, as ridiculous as that may sound to me.
Sure, but what if I then told you something along the lines of "Well, yes he visited me, but no I can't show you any hard evidence, you simply have to have faith that it happened. Here is some light reading on a bunch of christmas stories and I can point you to millions of other people that also believe in him." How convinced would you be? That is pretty much exactly my experience with religious people (including myself when I was religious).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2159]
TigerPulse: 69%
Posts: 2577
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 26, 2023, 4:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
I would have an easier time believing in Santa Claus than the idea that there's a god who's gonna throw everybody who doesn't believe in one of the thousands of the religions out there in a lake of fire to burn for eternity.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [702]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 795
Joined: 10/29/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 24, 2023, 9:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
Well, I disagree. I only encounter militant atheists. I mean whats the point of this post? Why not just be a quiet atheist like you're basically claiming everyone is, and not a God complex like I'm saying, where sitting there not believing in God isn't good enough, so we need to go find believers to prove wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
2
Sep 24, 2023, 10:21 AM
|
|
> Well, I disagree. I only encounter militant atheists. I mean whats the point of this post? Why not just be a quiet atheist like you're basically claiming everyone is, and not a God complex like I'm saying, where sitting there not believing in God isn't good enough, so we need to go find believers to prove wrong.
This is a religion forum, specifically for this topic. I am not going around anywhere else talking about this. I also do this on UFO forums, covid forums, political forums, etc...
It's just that this topic is near and dear to you, and it makes it seem like people like me are "out to get you". No, it's just another fun topic to debate, as far as I see it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93787]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95485
Joined: 12/25/09
|
God and me are 'out to get you.'
1
Sep 25, 2023, 8:53 AM
|
|
I'll probably quit before He does but you're still very near the top of my prayer list and I love you dearly. My love isn't as militant as God's but I'm working on it and He's helping me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: God and me are 'out to get you.'
2
Sep 25, 2023, 8:58 AM
|
|
That's truly a sweet sentiment and I really do appreciate it. As a person, the feeling is mutual, I just disagree with your worldview.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93787]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95485
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I think we can agree on one thing about this world.
1
Sep 25, 2023, 4:24 PM
|
|
This world in temporary relative to our lives.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Asst Coach [702]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 795
Joined: 10/29/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 25, 2023, 4:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
> Well, I disagree. I only encounter militant atheists. I mean whats the point of this post? Why not just be a quiet atheist like you're basically claiming everyone is, and not a God complex like I'm saying, where sitting there not believing in God isn't good enough, so we need to go find believers to prove wrong.
This is a religion forum, specifically for this topic. I am not going around anywhere else talking about this. I also do this on UFO forums, covid forums, political forums, etc...
It's just that this topic is near and dear to you, and it makes it seem like people like me are "out to get you". No, it's just another fun topic to debate, as far as I see it.
I appreciate your way of debate. Although I do find it's the exception, not the rule. In real life, I do only encounter militant atheists for the most part. I prefer ones like you. I'm always happy to have interesting conversations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Sep 25, 2023, 5:00 PM
|
|
Well, I agree with you. I don't care for militant anything. Not being willing to change one's mind when presented with evidence contrary to a currently held view is extremely irritating.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6498]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10132
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Oct 4, 2023, 10:53 PM
|
|
I think many question, but some are firmly convinced in their beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2053]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2989
Joined: 11/29/22
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
1
Oct 5, 2023, 9:36 AM
|
|
Everyone is convinced of their beliefs to some extent or another, otherwise you wouldn't believe what you do.
What you seem to be claiming is that atheists don't believe because they simply don't want to see the evidence, when its reality, you guys are just making claims without presenting convincing evidence.
Not a single person on earth would be an atheist if God chose to present himself unequivocally to everyone. So either he can't do that, doesn't want to, or doesn't exist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29905]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8856
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
Oct 5, 2023, 12:59 PM
|
|
I agree with you.
I think I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I'm starting to feel that belief (or non-belief) is a fundamental, psychological barrier. It cannot be crossed by Free Will.
That is, I can choose to turn right in my car, or turn left. I can choose to watch this TV show, or that TV show. There are lots of things I have a freedom of choice about.
But one cannot choose to believe in God, just as one cannot choose to like chocolate ice cream if one does not like chocolate ice cream.
People can describe how good chocolate ice cream is, and all the wonderful ingredients, and you can even try chocolate ice cream, many times if one wishes, but if you don't like it you don't like it. It's not a choice.
Similarly, someone can explain a particular concept of God a million times, but if it doesn't resonate with you, for whatever reason or by whatever mechanism, beyond one's control, one simply cannot believe. It's not a choice.
So I'll just have to disagree with those who say "You know God exists, but you are refusing to accept it." Because that argument works just as well in reverse. It's like saying "You know you love raw oysters, you just won't admit it to yourself." Or "You know you are a Gamecock fan in your heart, you just won't allow yourself to come to terms with it." And who would ever believe that line of reasoning?
As someone firmly in the middle at this point in my life, and having been on both ends of the spectrum, it's not convincing evidence. There is some compelling evidence, to me at least, but that mentality is not it. It's categorizing something that is not a choice into being a choice, and borders on calling one either too dense to understand their own experiences (or lack of) at best, or a being a liar to themselves at worst.
16and18
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6498]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10132
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know
Oct 6, 2023, 11:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: For Christians: Do you think that atheists really do know ] |
|
I know people who call themselves Atheists who are actually Agnostic.
I know people who call themselves Christians who are actually agnostic.
God did and still does present Himself. Some don't have ears to hear or eyes to see.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 127
| visibility 701
|
|
|
50
