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YOUR BALANCE
Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.
Tiger Boards - Clemson Football
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Replies: 27
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Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

3

Dec 23, 2023, 8:05 PM
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<###### async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8">

While I'm ready for Clemson to move on, I'd be irate if they get involved with a lawsuit that
impartial legal analysts are calling weak. Don't dare ask fans for money to fund it either.

Let FSU do all the dirty work.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

4

Dec 23, 2023, 8:20 PM
Reply

Legal opinions are just that, opinions. That's why you go to court.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

2

Dec 23, 2023, 8:29 PM
Reply

Exactly - Hence let FSU take the risk.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 10:59 AM
Reply

There will be lawyers that believe every spot on the confidence spectrum on either side of virtually any case and there is no such thing as in impartial position on a legal matter. There influences by their interpretation of the law even if dispassionant towards the parties.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

1

Dec 23, 2023, 8:28 PM
Reply

Who is Frank the Tank?

And where did he go to law school?

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

2

Dec 23, 2023, 8:45 PM
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Was the first ### Laude from the trial run of Scar school of law. Couldn't hold water.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 9:25 AM [ in reply to Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak. ]
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The legal analyst described in these texts is Frank the Tank. He works for Barstool. He is extremely overweight sports nut. Quite weird. He had NO legal background. He grades hot dogs restaurants on Barstool.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 9:26 AM [ in reply to Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak. ]
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The legal analyst described in these texts is Frank the Tank. He works for Barstool. He is extremely overweight sports nut. Quite weird. He had NO legal background. He grades hot dogs restaurants on Barstool.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

2

Dec 23, 2023, 8:42 PM
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FSU is wasting their time and money. It’s a contract and they originally signed it and renewed it again in 2016. This is exactly what contracts do. They hold both parties to what they agreed upon.
The only way Clemson and FSU can leave is if the required number of schools ban together and opt out. That’s it.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

1
2

Dec 23, 2023, 10:58 PM
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Wow, you're right. No one has ever gotten of a contract before. You should call FSU, they need your counsel

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

1

Dec 24, 2023, 5:49 AM [ in reply to Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak. ]
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Guess you have never heard of contract law. Contracts are broken in court every week my guy.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 1:47 PM
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If there that easily broken, they are pointless.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 2:48 PM [ in reply to Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak. ]
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It would be my guess is that is why the ACC moved so quickly to add three more schools. They were one school away from having a simple majority to dissolve the ACC.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

1

Dec 23, 2023, 8:56 PM
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So your way of looking at this situation is "we believe in what FSU is doing and hope like #### they win so we can use it to our advantage but we won't stand shoulder to shoulder with you because we are scared it could backfire on us. But is it okay if we reap the possible benefits"?

It's called fence sitting and doesn't sit right with me

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 23, 2023, 9:00 PM
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Amd just to add, if we want to leave this conference before 2036,this lawsuit has to be attempted and if FSU fails, we can forget about leaving for at least a decade

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 23, 2023, 9:27 PM
Reply

Or pay $572M!

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 23, 2023, 11:18 PM [ in reply to Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak. ]
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If you didn't know where the guy was that's shooting at you, would you want you and your friend to run out at the same time so he can shoot you both together, or one of run out and hope the other one nails him before you get hit. Use you head, FSU we make the ACC open up their defense so Clemson can have time to come up with a plan of attacking their defense!!!

Once the trail is started, the judge isn't going to allow either side to have days or weeks to search for caselaw to defend what's being used against you, you better have it in hand there and now. With FSU going in first, it will allow whoever comes in next time to search for caselaw to defend yourself against whatever they use to defeat FSU if that's what happens!!!

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 11:12 AM
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Yeah let FSU bear all the costs and take advantage of their ruling.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


where is his J.D. from and what firm does he work for ?***


Dec 23, 2023, 10:37 PM
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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

1

Dec 23, 2023, 11:11 PM
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Clemson has held off on the loud talking while FSU will take the bullet while Clemson will be setting back to see what the ACC's defense will be in the FSU trial and they will come after full bore knowing what their D is!!! I think this has been the plan with FSU and Clemson all along, and that's to open up the ACC's defense. If they would have joined the suit together, it could have shot both of them in the back at the same time...

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 23, 2023, 11:12 PM
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I’ve also seen lawyers on X opine that FSU has a strong case.

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Let me translate 'Legal Analysis,' for you.

1

Dec 23, 2023, 11:34 PM
Reply

Legal analysis: One who follows lawsuits with no credentials other than having followed lawsuit, anyone who does that and presents his opinion devoid of having read the paperwork covering the lawsuit but rather gathers information from the internet which suits his 'professional opinion.'

In regular talk: A guy who represents himself as being more qualified than the average person when, actually, his goal is to say what most people want to hear so they will give him 'likes,' on fakebook and increase the number of 'followers,' on his twitter X account.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

1

Dec 24, 2023, 6:27 AM
Reply

If you want to read it, Frank apparently got some of his info here:

"When he learned this week that he was one of only a few people in possession of a copy of the ACC’s original grant of rights agreement, Mark Wilhelm took another look at it. He also examined copies of the Big 12 and Pac-12’s agreements, which he obtained around the same time period as a Villanova law student authoring an article on conference grant of rights agreements that would appear in 2014 in the Harvard Law School Journal of Sports and Entertainment Law.

“If you came to me in my normal practice, and you said, ‘Mark, I want to draft an agreement that does this sort of thing. Can you put something together?’ My gut reaction is that we’re looking at a 20-, 40-, 50-page document,” said Wilhelm, who earned his law degree in 2015 and now handles corporate mergers and acquisitions cases at Philadelphia firm Troutman Pepper. “Because there are a lot of terms, a lot of situations we want to consider — a lot of exceptions we want to include. That’s not what these documents are. These documents are a couple pages.”

Those few pages — especially the ones that make up the ACC’s agreement — could hold the key to this most recent round of college sports realignment. When USC and UCLA announced their move to the Big Ten on Thursday, it pulled the pin on what could be the most chaotic, transformative period in the history of college sports. Geography truly no longer matters. There are two leagues (the Big Ten and the SEC) that everyone wants to join, and in the next income bracket down, there is a mad scramble to either find a ladder to the two big-money conferences or to create the most lucrative next best thing. On Friday, the Pac-12’s presidents authorized an exploration of expansion. More movement is coming, and it’s coming fast.

How that movement happens — and who moves where — depends in large part on whether the ACC’s agreement holds. Unlike the other two, which end when their respective leagues’ media rights deals expire in 2024* and 2025, the ACC’s grant of rights lasts until June 30, 2036.

What’s a grant of rights? In the world of college sports, it’s an agreement in which schools agree to transfer their media rights to their conference for a set period of time. For example, Baylor’s agreement to be part of the Big 12’s grant of rights means that the rights fee for any televised sporting event emanating from Baylor’s campus is owned by the Big 12 until the grant expires. Replace “Baylor” and “Big 12” with “North Carolina” and “ACC” or “Oregon State” and “Pac-12.” These agreements purport to be irrevocable, and for years the general consensus among college sports administrators is that challenging such an agreement would be too risky a proposition. But one such agreement stands between powerful Oklahoma and Texas and an earlier entry into their new home in the SEC. Meanwhile, leaders at some ACC members stare at 14 more years of an ever-widening income gap with schools that once received similar television money and wonder if they can afford to wait.

*It’s no accident that UCLA and USC will join the Big Ten in 2024. That is exactly when the Pac-12 grant of rights expires.

The ACC agreement Wilhelm had — which is linked below in this story — is the original grant of rights. He obtained it in 2014 through an open records request to the University of North Carolina while writing that journal article. The agreement he received appears to be the copy that then-UNC chancellor Holden Thorp signed and sent back to the conference. The document contained signature pages for each school’s CEO, which would allow the signed pages to be combined into one fully executed document. The agreement was drafted in 2013 just after Louisville announced it would join the league and Notre Dame joined in all sports except football. Members were nervous after the Big Ten poached charter member Maryland, and at the time, their desire to keep the league intact superseded any interest in future flexibility. They were scared of the league being pillaged, and they wanted stability. That original agreement ran through June 30, 2027. It was amended in 2016 when the ACC extended its media rights deal with Disney/ESPN. That most recent deal allowed for the creation of the ACC Network. Multiple sources who have seen both said the language in the agreements is similar.

What’s also similar is the language in the original ACC agreement compared to the language in the Big 12 agreement forged a year earlier. Several passages appear to be copied verbatim. This includes a key section titled “Miscellaneous” in each that likely would be of particular interest to anyone wishing to break the agreement.

“This agreement may not be modified or amended other than by an agreement in writing signed by duly authorized representatives of the Conference and each of the Member Institutions that are then members of the Conference,” reads the first sentence of that section in the Big 12 grant of rights and in the original ACC grant of rights.

How many schools would have to agree to amend the agreement in writing is the key question, but it’s safe to assume that it would take something fairly catastrophic to convince a majority of schools in any league to move to dissolve their grant of rights.

So if a school wanted to challenge a grant of rights, it likely would assume considerable financial risk. For Texas or Oklahoma, it could mean a year or two of forfeited television money if either challenged the Big 12’s deal and failed. For an ACC school that tried and failed, the forfeited TV revenue would run into the hundreds of millions. But the current financial stakes may have changed the math. The Big Ten’s next media rights deal, which will begin a year from Friday, could ultimately allow the league to pay out as much as $100 million per school per year. It’s safe to assume that the SEC and Big Ten will each soon be able to pay out at least $70 million per school per year. The ACC distributed an average of $36.1 million per school for the 2020-21 school year.

So how would a school challenge a grant of rights? Wilhelm offered some general guidance. His firm wouldn’t allow him to comment on any league’s specific deal, but since these agreements are similar to ones he sees in his practice, he had a few ideas.

Wilhelm said there are four ways to challenge such a deal.

The first would be for the school to simply leave the conference and leave its rights behind. This is likely a non-starter because without its rights, that school is of considerably less value to another league. The new league wouldn’t be allowed to sell that school’s rights to a network, which likely would put an end to any potential marriage.

The second option is for the school to sue to try to get the rights back. This also would be exceptionally risky. “That’s going to be incredibly expensive,” Wilhelm said, “and there is not a lot of certainty that a school is going to win.”

If a school was willing to take the risk, it might claim the grant of rights isn’t a valid contract. That may sound silly. You can read three such contracts here. But it’s more complicated than that.

ACC Grant of Rights

Big 12 Grant of Rights

Pac-12 Grant of Rights

For something to be a contract, it must have three components: an offer, an acceptance and consideration. If I walk into a store and buy a pack of gum, my receipt is a valid contract. The store has offered me gum at a specific price. I have accepted those terms. I have given the store that amount of money, and the store has given me the pack of gum.

In the grant of rights, the school has given the conference something of value — its media rights. But what has the conference given the school? It’s not the money for those media rights. That comes from one or several networks based on the terms of the conference’s deal with the network(s). The school’s attorneys could argue that an entirely separate contract covers that consideration.

Meanwhile, the attorneys for the conference and the remaining schools could argue that the consideration the school received was stability in an unstable time.


One option: Hope the league dissolves and the grant of rights goes with it. (Jim Dedmon / USA Today)
But first, Wilhelm pointed out, any school challenging any of the grant of rights deals would have to figure out where to sue. This goes back to the brevity of the contracts themselves. “There’s nothing inherently wrong with that,” he said. “That doesn’t mean it’s a bad contract or that it’s unenforceable or anything like that. But what you have is a situation where you’re tying up potentially billions of dollars of rights in three or four pages. That leaves a lot of questions about what everybody was agreeing to at the time.”

One key question: Which state’s law governs the deal? If I look at my employment agreement with The Athletic, it tells me that it is governed by the laws of the state of California. There is no such clause in any of these deals. This, to Wilhelm, is a feature rather than a bug. It adds another layer of complexity for any entity wishing to challenge the deal. “So before we even get to the arguing about ‘Is this a contract’ or ‘Is this enforceable,’ we have to first figure out what court we’re supposed to be in,” Wilhelm said. “And lawyers will spend months arguing about what court you’re going to be in and — even when you’re in the court — what law applies.”

See why even Oklahoma and Texas — with all their fancy lawyers — haven’t challenged the Big 12’s grant of rights? It’s a lot of (expensive) work with no guarantee of success and a steep price for failure. Of course, if the schools could get the cases tried in their states, they might have a better chance of winning. This is especially true if they have friends in the state legislature who can help adjust the state’s contract laws. But again, that is no guarantee.

A much less risky (but probably still expensive) option is to try to negotiate a deal with the conference and the remaining members for an exit fee that is less than the full amount that would be forfeited. That exit fee would allow a school to leave with its rights intact.

While ACC members would be unlikely to agree to such a deal if a few of their schools wished to leave, this seems like the logical route for Oklahoma and Texas should they wish to join the SEC when that league’s new media rights deal begins in 2024. The Sooners and Longhorns could offer a payment that would allow the remaining Big 12 members to receive either an equal amount or more than they would have received had Oklahoma and Texas stayed until 2025, then it would seem reasonable that the other schools would let them leave with their rights. (Unless they really want to be spiteful, which is their right.)

The fourth option? Hope the league dissolves and the grant of rights dissolves with it. In the ACC, that would require the majority of the members to want to leave. That seems unlikely. But what about the Big 12 and Oklahoma and Texas? The Pac-12 could respond to the loss of USC and UCLA by trying to scoop up Big 12 members. The leagues could merge and form an entirely new entity. If that happened, the Sooners and Longhorns could be free to go.

Meanwhile, the grant of rights concept could prove useful elsewhere. If Pac-12 commissioner George Kliavkoff wants to know if any more schools are attempting to leave his conference, he can make a request that the 10 remaining schools sign a new grant of rights agreement that extends to some point in the distant future. The schools that want to stay will jump at the chance to sign. If, say, Oregon or Washington or Utah or Cal or Stanford were exploring whether they might be candidates to join the Big Ten, they’d ask to hold off on signing such a document.

Because if they did, they’d be signing a very short contract with some very long repercussions."

https://theathletic.com/3396108/2022/07/01/acc-grant-of-rights-staples/

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 10:51 AM
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Troutman Pepper is a good firm so I would give a lot of credibility to Wilehlm.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 2:30 PM
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Troutman Pepper is NOT a good law firm. It is a very weak middle sized law firm. The vast majority of its lawyers went to terrible law schools. Look at how many of its grads attended a T14 vs an actually elite firm like Covington and Burling.

Source: I'm a lawyer at an actual elite firm in DC who attended a T14. I never see Troutman lawyers in my line of work, because the best clients wouldn't hire them.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 2:21 PM [ in reply to Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak. ]
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Excellent article ....... well explained!

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.

2

Dec 24, 2023, 11:10 AM
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Paul get up to tobacco road and track down that friggin contract. Oh and see if can find this guy Swofford. Della get us some sandwiches. It’s gonna be along night. And Paul see if you figure out this Grant Wright dude. He’s hiding evidence from Hamilton Burger too. If we can get these bozos on the stand ESPN will crack and Rece Davis will admit to the truth along with Mickey Mouse.

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Re: Legal Analyst calls FSU lawsuit fairly weak.


Dec 24, 2023, 2:31 PM
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He's not a lawyer nor a legal analyst. As people said, his schtick is working for barstool and rating hot dogs. At one time, he worked as a Court clerk. That's not a judicial law clerk, a court clerk, so he was basically a secretary. He did not attend law school.

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