I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
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CU Medallion [58970]
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I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 4:25 PM
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hating trolls, but whatever it is, it's at an all-time high.
We played a bad game, inexplicable mistakes were made, we were outplayed and out coached, and our coach has owned up to it all of it. It sucks. Now, 10 months following a National Championship and second consecutive appearance in the National Championship game, with our program at the absolute pinnacle of college football, we have people on here who are questioning the decisions of those who are almost singularly responsible for getting us there. Okay - fair enough - no football coach is above fair criticism, but the things that are being questioned, and the logic (or total lack thereof) being used are "mind-bottling". The answers to most of these questions have either already been given, or are obvious and self-evident; but people either aren't capable of connecting the dots, or they refuse to accept the answers simply because they don't like the answers, because the answers don't provide a quick fix for the perceived problem.
We lost an ugly game - a game we should have won. We have things that have to get fixed. I believe we can and will, and I'm moving on.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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probably a combo***
Oct 15, 2017, 4:27 PM
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All-In [44274]
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I believe we will finish this season 14-1.
Oct 15, 2017, 4:27 PM
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Assuming KB is 100% for GT, and remains at 100% the rest of the season.
If KB can't play, then we are probably looking at a few losses but still a good season.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I think we can at least get to the playoffs...
Oct 15, 2017, 4:29 PM
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with a game manager at QB
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Legend [15926]
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The optimism of winning a Nat Champ has turned into entitlement to
Oct 15, 2017, 4:28 PM
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winning every game, with style, on the way to another one. Its too bad. Folks need to appreciate what we have, buy most don't.
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Orange Blooded [2496]
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Wrong. Friday night had nothing to do with “entitlement”
Oct 15, 2017, 8:19 PM
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But rather, COMPETENCE. In fact, Friday night actually made me question what exactly our team DOES DURING PRACTICE. KB seemed 100% during practice? I find that laughable. You couldn’t see he was hobbled at practice? Then what are you doing at practice exactly? Our kicker still can’t make chip shot field goals? Then what is he doing at practice? He should be kicking field goals at practice. All practice. Every practice. Why are we not running the ball with our stud RBs behind our supposed “good/veteran” Oline? Why does our QB have the most rushing attempts of the entire team? It’s not entitlement of the fan base. It is frustration because of the talent on our roster and it’s not being utilized most effectively. It is frustration of losing games we should easily win. If we lose and we played well, you won’t see this many people complaining! It’s THE WAY we lost, not just the fact that we lost. We have a chance for another special season and I for one don’t want to see that wasted.
In case you forgot, we are Clemson and BEST IS THE STANDARD - not something you do once in a while.
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Orange Blooded [2972]
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Re: Wrong. Friday night had nothing to do with “entitlement”
Oct 15, 2017, 11:16 PM
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You think far to much of yourself!!
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All-TigerNet [11088]
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It's not like we lost to a strong team. That's the rub.
Oct 16, 2017, 11:56 AM
[ in reply to Wrong. Friday night had nothing to do with “entitlement” ] |
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Along with the things you mentioned. I mean had we gone out against an undefeated Miami, had a close came, and come up short, I think everyone would understand, but still have concerns about the decision to leave KB in the game. But we laid an egg on national TV against a mediocre team. That is really bad.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: It's not like we lost to a strong team. That's the rub.
Oct 16, 2017, 12:10 PM
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We laid an egg? Syracuse is a veteran team and they aren't exactly pushovers. Not to mention our starting QB tweaking his ankle and ultimately getting knocked out and taken out of the game.
Now if you want to see an egg laid, look at Washington State's game on Friday night after ours.
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Legend [17973]
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Maybe I am part of the ignorant and stupid ST
Oct 15, 2017, 4:38 PM
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I can live with that. But I, among many, am trying to understand why Dabo and TE played a running QB who was completely immobile. Loyalty? Overconfidence that Clemson could win without much scoring? It is bizarre and folks are trying to understand the reason coaches and many players seemed to take the game off against a fired up and #68 rated SYR team whose QB was the difference. This was an "F" on an open book test.
IMHO this Clemson team has a good shot to finish in the top 10 to 15 - a very solid season - still without changes, I don't see it as a playoff team. Many have underestimated the impact of Deshaun's departure.
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Orange Blooded [2234]
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he is not owning up to it ,his response was KB 100% at start
Oct 15, 2017, 4:48 PM
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oe the game,no response when asked why he wasn't pulled when laboring
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CU Medallion [58970]
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It's obvious to me . . . coaches believed KB, while not 100%
Oct 15, 2017, 5:53 PM
[ in reply to Maybe I am part of the ignorant and stupid ST ] |
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(or whether it was 90, 80, 60, 42, 27.3%, or whatever) was better than ZC or HJ at 100%. You may not agree with that or like that, but that's the answer. It has nothing to do with loyalty. Unlike us as fans who have seen snippets of what ZC and HJ in isolated game situations, the coaches have exponentially more knowledge of what each is capable of, having spent thousands and thousands of hours with them on and off the practice field, prepping them and talking to them and coaching them and observing them. Whether it's experience, knowledge of the playbook, command of the offense, maturity, physical ability, whatever, the coaches have the background and the first-hand knowledge to make personnel decisions, and we don't. Based on that, they made the decision to start KB. Honestly, KB played extremely well for almost the entire 1st quarter(I just went back and watched it). Cuse was stacking the box and we were moving the ball with KB being very accurate and making the quick throws. His injury was not hampering him in any way at that point and he was very effective. The decision to start him was not in question at that point. Then, late in the quarter, with about 2 minutes and something to go, I believe, KB tried to sprint to OB and it was at that point the limp was very obvious, but he was still was fully engaged. After that, it appeared to get worse pretty quickly. Personally, I too wondered why they didn't pull him then; I have to believe that he wanted very badly to stay in, and was telling coaches he could go. We have seen players, QBs even, play with a limp or banged up ribs or whatever many times before. It's a judgement call. I thought they should have taken him out sooner too, and in hindsight, they should have. While I disagree with that decision, I also understand that it's a much more difficult one in the heat of the moment, and I see no gross negligence. Too me it's completely understandable.
Also, another reason I think they hesitated to pull KB was because they understood the drop off to the next guy, ZC. Good or bad, ZC is still developing and there is some drop off when he comes in the game, at least at this point. As for whether it should have been him or HJ, again, we as fans are in no position to make that call. Of course, when ZC misses wide open guys and the offense is all out of sync, sure we want to see somebody else get a shot, especially if that somebody else looked good in a 7-play drive in mop-up duty a few weeks ago. But again, there's more to it than that.
There are very understandable explanations why KB started. There are very understandable explanations why KB was not pulled earlier. There are very understandable explanations why ZC played and HJ didn't. You and I may not agree with them, and they may indeed have been the wrong decisions in hindsight, but they were all based on the wisdom and experience of coaches who have a degree of expertise and first-hand knowledge that far exceeds anything we as fans can comprehend. And it's all there - completely understandable - and no mystery.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: It's obvious to me . . . coaches believed KB, while not 100%
Oct 16, 2017, 11:49 AM
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Smiling Tiger, this is the best most sensible analysis i have seen. As an ex-football manager, have watched many practices and understand coaches decisions. As Frank Howard used to say, the most popular player on the team is the second-string QB (in this case -the 3rd string) Fans can like it or not but there is a reason they are back-ups. I know Hunter Johnson was a top-rated QB out of HS. I lost track of how many "can't miss" players out of HS never saw the field at Clemson in my 4 years. Some just never catch up with the next level game whether its HS to college or college to pros. Hunter may just be one who hasn't caught up yet. Don't think it will happen but this board will self-destruct if TL has any problems....
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Commissioner [992]
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Re: Maybe I am part of the ignorant and stupid ST
Oct 15, 2017, 7:54 PM
[ in reply to Maybe I am part of the ignorant and stupid ST ] |
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> I can live with that. But I, among many, am trying to > understand why Dabo and TE played a running QB who > was completely immobile. Loyalty? Overconfidence that > Clemson could win without much scoring? It is bizarre > and folks are trying to understand the reason coaches > and many players seemed to take the game off against > a fired up and #68 rated SYR team whose QB was the > difference. This was an "F" on an open book test. > > IMHO this Clemson team has a good shot to finish in > the top 10 to 15 - a very solid season - still > without changes, I don't see it as a playoff team. > Many have underestimated the impact of Deshaun's > departure.
I agree. Any team would miss DW4 and MW leaving
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All-In [25491]
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There's one little thing that a site like TigerNet
Oct 15, 2017, 4:43 PM
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offers that brings out the lurkers, bashers and gurus: anonymity.
Most offer reasonable views, and that's actually helpful to all. Some are venting anger over the loss, looking for relief; then a few seek to sow seeds of dissension and doubt among the Tiger faithful. The first are fine; the second mildly tolerable; the last are obnoxious and should be relegated into oblivion with RA's from dues-paying members.
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All-In [26395]
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Re: There's one little thing that a site like TigerNet
Oct 15, 2017, 5:02 PM
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We lost and the coots won in the same weekend. That is as rare as the doo-doo bird.
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Orange Blooded [2076]
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But not as rare as doo-doo ice in WB! ??***
Oct 16, 2017, 1:39 PM
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Legend [17973]
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Respect your insights & devotion to Clemson Mr. Hartins
Oct 15, 2017, 5:02 PM
[ in reply to There's one little thing that a site like TigerNet ] |
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Ayn Rand wrote “Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” And people tend to search for the truth when the subject matter is personally meaningful. I do not know but hope I am not on your list of "obnoxious" posters. My take is the vast majority of T-Net posters and contributors love their Clemson Tigers. MB "Soc" Howell, Class of 1984
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Orange Blooded [2535]
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no satisfactory answer or any real answer
Oct 15, 2017, 5:16 PM
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has been provided for why a limping QB was left on the field or even used at all. Your rant is misplaced and inaccurate. What someone did in the past is not a basis for excusing poor judgment decisions in the present.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Interesting
Oct 15, 2017, 5:23 PM
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"satifactory" answer is subjective. I think we received a real answer. Dabo said that Bryant worked really hard to get ready for the game and all the coaches felt he could go. So Kelly wanted it and the coaches wanted it. Dabo also said that as the game went on, it was obvious that his mobility was hampered.
Sounds like a "real" answer. Whether it is "satisfactory," is certainly up to you.
So what are you going to do as a fan about it?
Should Cooper have started? Should Johnson have started?
See, you are on the win-win side, because you can complain and complain and be correct in your mind, because we do not have the benefit of objectivity from results.
I'll take Dabo's results, which he did in the past, as you say, and give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Orange Blooded [3750]
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Re: Interesting
Oct 15, 2017, 7:10 PM
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Nailed it there Franc.+1 Check yr tmail.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Some posters don’t want an answer when it is given if it
Oct 15, 2017, 8:17 PM
[ in reply to Interesting ] |
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doesn’t fit their agenda.
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Orange Blooded [4821]
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Yeah, it was one game of stinkiness at every position
Oct 15, 2017, 5:19 PM
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lets see how the D bounces back against GT. Biggest problem I see is QB. ZC did not look so good. He made a few plays, but had some big misses, that wont fly. I'm in the camp that thinks HJ should have gotten a shot after ZC missed receivers on consecutive series.
Still love Dabo and the Tigers...
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: Yeah, it was one game of stinkiness at every position
Oct 16, 2017, 11:52 AM
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Well, to be honest, we didn't have enough offensive possessions in the second half to to give him a shot
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110%er [9385]
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give us a break not used to losing***
Oct 15, 2017, 5:26 PM
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CU Guru [1407]
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It's definitely sheer stupidity. Yep.***
Oct 15, 2017, 5:36 PM
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MVP [541]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 6:07 PM
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Well, for me personally there is a 4th answer - its called being a sports fan. I'm not calling for the coaches to be fired. I'm not giving up on this team - in fact, I am still the proud owner of 4 tix to the ACC champ game and have my hotel booked for that night too. Not canceling that or selling those tix....not yet. But I love my team and sometimes I have questions. I questioned that useless bubble screen for 6 games before Friday night. I'll continue to question it. I questioned the coaches pulling DW4 out against UGA after he threw that laser for a TD. I questioned Chad Morris calling a trick play vs SCar when we marched all the way down the field. I question my Panthers at times. I question my daughter's soccer team all the time. I care and I have my own opinions & thoughts. Now 95% of the time, I question things about Clemson and then I watch the next play and say "Oh....wow....that's why he did that. Shows what I know." But not Friday night. Last year vs Pitt I didn't question the coaches because interceptions and fumbles and blown coverages aren't coach things - they are player execution.
FYI - I am not a 'coot troll'. That seems to be a lot of TNetters standard issue response to anyone of dissenting opinion. If I need to attach our photos celebrating on the field at DV, or pics of my daughter stalking Will Swinney because she swears they will be married one day....I will.
Go Tigers!!
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CU Medallion [58970]
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Nothing at all wrong with questioning or having a dissenting
Oct 15, 2017, 8:09 PM
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opinion - not at all. I get it, we get a bad result, we want it fixed and we offer opinions on what went wrong and how to fix it. That's cool. It just gets tiresome when the answers have either been given, or are self-evident in the first place once we calm down and understand that coaches usually do what they do for very good, valid reasons, even if it doesn't work as hoped.
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Orange Blooded [3398]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 6:51 PM
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Bandwagoners protecting their pride. It’s all they have invested and it took a hit on Friday night. Tigernet is overrun with them. Been on here since 2002 and it’s getting intolerable.
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Legend [16493]
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We're at the mid-way point in the season and every team
Oct 15, 2017, 7:50 PM
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goal remains not only attainable but well within reach. That's really impressive.
I'm expecting a strong second half - refocused and hungrier than ever with a clear path in sight.
Go Tigers!
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Legend [17582]
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Admit my ignorance & stupidity, but ???
Oct 15, 2017, 7:55 PM
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Cause it is what fans do!
TU
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Legend [17582]
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Admit my ignorance & stupidity, but ???
Oct 15, 2017, 7:56 PM
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Cause it is what fans do!
TU
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CU Guru [1486]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 8:35 PM
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We were at the game 90 minutes before kickoff. It was obvious during warmups that KB could not cut. He could barely run along the sidelines without limping. He should have never played. Our D was never set. The HUNH Cuse O kept them off balance all night. Both of these situations are the result of POOR COACHING, SOMETHING we have not seen in many games. Reply
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CU Guru [1486]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 8:35 PM
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We were at the game 90 minutes before kickoff. It was obvious during warmups that KB could not cut. He could barely run along the sidelines without limping. He should have never played. Our D was never set. The HUNH Cuse O kept them off balance all night. Both of these situations are the result of POOR COACHING, SOMETHING we have not seen in many games. Reply
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CU Guru [1486]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 8:35 PM
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We were at the game 90 minutes before kickoff. It was obvious during warmups that KB could not cut. He could barely run along the sidelines without limping. He should have never played. Our D was never set. The HUNH Cuse O kept them off balance all night. Both of these situations are the result of POOR COACHING, SOMETHING we have not seen in many games. Reply
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All-TigerNet [12506]
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We heard you the first time
Oct 16, 2017, 11:52 AM
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I guess after we fire Dabo today we should hire you?
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CU Guru [1486]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 8:35 PM
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We were at the game 90 minutes before kickoff. It was obvious during warmups that KB could not cut. He could barely run along the sidelines without limping. He should have never played. Our D was never set. The HUNH Cuse O kept them off balance all night. Both of these situations are the result of POOR COACHING, SOMETHING we have not seen in many games. Reply
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CU Guru [1486]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 8:35 PM
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We were at the game 90 minutes before kickoff. It was obvious during warmups that KB could not cut. He could barely run along the sidelines without limping. He should have never played. Our D was never set. The HUNH Cuse O kept them off balance all night. Both of these situations are the result of POOR COACHING, SOMETHING we have not seen in many games. Reply
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CU Guru [1486]
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Re: I'm not sure if it's ignorance, sheer stupidity, or Clemson-
Oct 15, 2017, 8:35 PM
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We were at the game 90 minutes before kickoff. It was obvious during warmups that KB could not cut. He could barely run along the sidelines without limping. He should have never played. Our D was never set. The HUNH Cuse O kept them off balance all night. Both of these situations are the result of POOR COACHING, SOMETHING we have not seen in many games. Reply
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All-TigerNet [11088]
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It's completely fair for fans to question decisions the
Oct 16, 2017, 11:53 AM
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coaches make. The coaches are highly paid professionals who should be thoroughly criticized. That's why they make the big bucks.
For one, leaving Bryant in the game until getting a concussion forced him out was a serious mistake. I hope our coaches do not make that mistake again in the future. I don't care if KB said he could play, we have doctors, trainers, and coaches who are paid to make the correct determination. They failed.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: It's completely fair for fans to question decisions the
Oct 16, 2017, 11:56 AM
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The concussion could have happened with two good ankles -they are not connected.
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All-TigerNet [11088]
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LOL, right. And drunk driving doesn't cause accidents.
Oct 16, 2017, 11:57 AM
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Cause and effect. Sure there was no way to predict a concussion, but everyone watching the game knew KB was going to get hurt because he couldn't escape like he normally does and Syracuse was bringing the house.
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All-TigerNet [14438]
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Re: LOL, right. And drunk driving doesn't cause accidents.
Oct 16, 2017, 12:02 PM
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LOL, GOOD OLD TOM, AKA UTTLES, HAS BEEN LAYING IN THE WEEDS PRAYING FOR CLEMSON TO HAVE A MISSSTEP SO HE COULD SLITHER OUT AND START BLASTING THE STAFF. TOOK AWHILE DIDNT IT UTTLES. GET READY TO SLITHER BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK WHEN WE START THIS NEW STREAK.
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Hall of Famer [21888]
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Dabo will never get us over the hump.
Oct 16, 2017, 12:08 PM
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Orange Blooded [2754]
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Look . . .
Oct 16, 2017, 12:11 PM
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I agree with much of what you said, but if coaches aren't above criticism, then it doesn't follow that that is only the case until a retort is given, at which point the critics must then accept the answers (i.e. "now that we've answered you, and told you how wrong you are, we ARE above criticism").
Obviously, the critics are not, by and large, saying the staff is wholly incompetent and ought to be fired. So that's not an issue (not that you said otherwise, I'm just clarifying the level of the criticism here, - i.e. it's not about whether the staff is good in *general* terms). It by no means defies logic to suggest that a brilliant leader, with a great staff, who are rightfully credited with the programs current stature, can still have blind spots that are *actual* blind spots, that the critics are right about. Now whether this is the case or not here of course, depends on the details.
Not everything is as simple as negative arm-chair QB's say, that's true - but that cuts both ways. All post-mortem excuses are not either. Sometimes the brilliant folks just took a nod and made some boneheaded decisions. That's not crazy talk.
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